The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Munkky » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:19 am

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Ironhidensh wrote:It just seems to me that gender-neutral is something we put on children. For the most part boys like boy toys, and girls like girl toys. Of course there's always going to be exceptions to this rule, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with the boy playing with girl toys, and vice versa. Just my two cents after some observation.


This reminds me of a web-comic I saw on Twitter once:

Image

I've heard a lot of people argue that toys marketed at certain genders enforce "damaging" gender roles, and any differing interests between boys and girls are caused entirely by oppression. Personally I think that's a load of nonsense. Toys and games today are how they are because market research and sales figures have shown that people like this kind of stuff. It has nothing to do with the Patriarchy or Illuminati or Big Brother or whatever wanting boys and girls to grow up in certain ways.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby GrimlockPrimal » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:03 am

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Well, why is it that boys like boys' toys and girls like girls' toys mostly?
Because that's what we feed them via advertising. Think about it; in your average Transformers toy commercial, there's nary a vagina-laden individual in view at any point; it's always young boys and teenagers that get used. The opposite occurs with MLP; almost entirely young girls in the marketing, nary a single male.

So of course the kids would equate MLP to "girl's stuff" and Transformers to "boy's stuff", because that's how the bloody things are marketed. :p

Honestly, though, this is my opinion; we shouldn't be picky about how we apply gender in either direction, or over-sensitive about sexuality. Arcee shouldn't need to be a slim and "sexy" character all the time, nor should Optimus Prime always have to be big and buff. There's a distinction between my issue here and a Tumblrina issue; I'm more pertubed at the lack of variety overall, not just that females aren't everywhere. Hell, I'd love to have a series where Arcee is a big and bulky vehicle and Optimus Prime is a more svelte and lithe vehicle. I don't care about if it's not "correct", it's at least something different from the last 30+ years of this franchise.

And why not just let characters be non-conformist? Maybe Bulkhead likes, say, crochet or Arcee is a huge football nut. Just because these characters are robots doesn't mean we can't still make them diverse. Because let's face it, 500,000 variants on "super warrior robot"/"super spy robot"/"super mechanic robot" tropes are just as obnoxious as any sort of gender debate; one's just incredibly repetetive while the other is just incredibly redundant.
Really, what's the point of this being an entire species of lifeform if everyone is basically the same damn thing with a new gimmick?! :p

Characters shouldn't be arbitrarilly split into male and female based on design, they should be self-identifying as male or female, no matter what they look like. I want more characters like Strika or Strongarm, who don't fall to the usual gendered Transformer traps. Just as all of us aren't all either buff men or sexy, big-busted women or into them, Transformers shouldn't always have those two designs.

And honestly, I'd love to see a series helmed by an Optimus Prime and Megatron who identified more as females than their traditional male roles.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:57 am

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If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Munkky » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:37 pm

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GrimlockPrimal wrote:Well, why is it that boys like boys' toys and girls like girls' toys mostly?
Because that's what we feed them via advertising. Think about it; in your average Transformers toy commercial, there's nary a vagina-laden individual in view at any point; it's always young boys and teenagers that get used. The opposite occurs with MLP; almost entirely young girls in the marketing, nary a single male.

So of course the kids would equate MLP to "girl's stuff" and Transformers to "boy's stuff", because that's how the bloody things are marketed. :p


I don't think that's the case. A study was done some years ago looking at how monkeys react to certain toys, with the results showing that the male monkeys showed more of an interest in toy trucks, while the female monkeys were more interested in dolls. The research suggests that the difference in preferences has more to do with the differences in hormone levels between individuals. Here's an article about the study: http://www.livescience.com/22677-girls- ... rucks.html

And as for advertising, in a competitive market driven by profits, businesses like Hasbro go by what is proven to sell well, and use market research and data collected from looking at what the majority of their customers want. They advertise traditionally "boy" toys to boys because that's who is primarily interested in them. Obviously there will always be exceptions, there will always be girls who are more interested in Transformers or Ninja Turtles than My Little Pony or Barbie, and you can attribute that to differing brain chemistry as well because not everyone's brain chemistry and hormone levels are the same, but the fact is the girls who like boy's stuff and boys who like girl's stuff are still an exception, and not the general.

I don't believe for one second that giving a boy a Barbie doll will make him grow up to be gay or whatever, and personal choice is an important thing, but at the same time I don't think it's right to complain if the huge overwhelming majority of boys or girls go for the more traditional stuff. Is it really a bad thing if more boys are interested in Transformers than girls are? Or more girls are interested in Barbie than boys are?

And honestly, I'd love to see a series helmed by an Optimus Prime and Megatron who identified more as females than their traditional male roles.


I'll have to disagree with you on that too. Gender-swapping an established character just "for a change" or "to encourage diversity" is never a good idea. It didn't work when Marvel did it with Thor, and I don't think it should ever be done for Optimus or Megatron. Original characters (male or female)? Sure, why not? Some of my favourite TF characters are ones introduced within the last ten years, such as Lockdown and Bulkhead. But making an established male character female for diversity's sake? That's something I personally can't get behind.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Black Hat » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:52 pm

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I'm inclined to agree with Munkky. I don't mind B-listers or absolute no-namers getting made into fembots (especially as they're usually little more than homages to their namesakes) but iconic characters like Optimus Prime or Megatron? Nah. I do agree a female Autobot commander or Decepticon tyrant would be cool but I'd prefer them to be original creations rather than "Optimus Prime BUT A GUUUURL!".
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:28 pm

I can picture Megatron being a female-oriented character. Optimus, not so much. There's just too much history of the character portrayed in a certain masculine manner. Megatron was changed often enough through the last 30 years to get away with becoming a femcon, but Optimus was basically the same from the start.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby SKYWARPED_128 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:49 pm

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Delta Magnus wrote:I'm inclined to agree with Munkky. I don't mind B-listers or absolute no-namers getting made into fembots (especially as they're usually little more than homages to their namesakes) but iconic characters like Optimus Prime or Megatron? Nah. I do agree a female Autobot commander or Decepticon tyrant would be cool but I'd prefer them to be original creations rather than "Optimus Prime BUT A GUUUURL!".


Same here. Personally, I always welcome more fembots into the TF universe, but I prefer that they simply leave it as "there's guy bots, and there's girl bots".

The core concept of "alien robots from outer space" was never designed to answer such complex questions of gender and sexual orientation in a race of non-procreating mechanical beings. At least, not without a complete overhaul of the mythology as well as doing away with the gendered aesthetics of TF's.

In a way, it's like the Highlander franchise. The idea worked for the purpose it served, but when you try to expand it further, it just implodes because the core concept wasn't built for that kind of expansion.

I respect the IDW writers' efforts in exploring these areas, though. That said, the TF franchise really doesn't need to be embroiled in the same gender controversies that the comics and video games industry is currently caught up in.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Black Hat » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:02 am

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SKYWARPED_128 wrote:I respect the IDW writers' efforts in exploring these areas, though. That said, the TF franchise really doesn't need to be embroiled in the same gender controversies that the comics and video games industry is currently caught up in.

This pretty much. To be quite honest those industries didn't need to be caught up in those controversies (Thank you, Anita. Thank you so much...) and I really, REALLY don't want Transformers being dragged into the culture war...

Well, no more than it already is anyway. After all, I got permanently banned from TFWiki for DARING to suggest that the fandom isn't full of raging misogynists and that not all criticism of female Transformers is motivated by a pathological hatred of women.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby RAR » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:09 pm

There is that joke or story I heard once about the little girl who was given a fire engine toy - she was delighted with it she had a dolls tea party with the fire engine then later that day she dressed it up in a night dress and tucked it into it's cot for the night.

Seems like just as boys will be boys, girls will be girls even if some people may not want either of them to be.

-----

Context might be relevant... If I say I have some Barbies... you think er what??? why...

If I then went on to explain the Barbies were...

Electra, Catwoman, Supergirl, Lois Lane, Wonder Woman etc.. you might go "Oh" and understand why.

Likewise if a Lord or the Rings or Elvis fan had those specific Barbie dolls the context would explain it.

As for the Spice Girls & Girls Aloud, & Get Real Girls dolls I bought.... er 'Pass' and I won't often admit to owning a few Bratz....(though I do).

That said I've not actually opened any of them and there is some "excuses" for them usually.

LOL

I've never seen a reason to be overly dismissive of some of the girls focused lego that has come out the last few years - though I don't buy it - I do look at it and think it's cool.

Lego might be an interesting thing to study the female interest off though.
The very earliest Lego was very "family orientated" and pretty gender neutral too, But I'd rather have had the Lego space stuff or the knights than the build a house sets.

I'd be really interested to know the demographic split for trainsets too.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Munkky » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:18 pm

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Delta Magnus wrote:I got permanently banned from TFWiki for DARING to suggest that the fandom isn't full of raging misogynists and that not all criticism of female Transformers is motivated by a pathological hatred of women.


Really? Damn, that's harsh.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Rampage » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:57 pm

GrimlockPrimal wrote:Well, why is it that boys like boys' toys and girls like girls' toys mostly?
Because that's what we feed them via advertising. Think about it; in your average Transformers toy commercial, there's nary a vagina-laden individual in view at any point; it's always young boys and teenagers that get used. The opposite occurs with MLP; almost entirely young girls in the marketing, nary a single male.

So of course the kids would equate MLP to "girl's stuff" and Transformers to "boy's stuff", because that's how the bloody things are marketed. :p

Honestly, though, this is my opinion; we shouldn't be picky about how we apply gender in either direction, or over-sensitive about sexuality. Arcee shouldn't need to be a slim and "sexy" character all the time, nor should Optimus Prime always have to be big and buff. There's a distinction between my issue here and a Tumblrina issue; I'm more pertubed at the lack of variety overall, not just that females aren't everywhere. Hell, I'd love to have a series where Arcee is a big and bulky vehicle and Optimus Prime is a more svelte and lithe vehicle. I don't care about if it's not "correct", it's at least something different from the last 30+ years of this franchise.

And why not just let characters be non-conformist? Maybe Bulkhead likes, say, crochet or Arcee is a huge football nut. Just because these characters are robots doesn't mean we can't still make them diverse. Because let's face it, 500,000 variants on "super warrior robot"/"super spy robot"/"super mechanic robot" tropes are just as obnoxious as any sort of gender debate; one's just incredibly repetetive while the other is just incredibly redundant.
Really, what's the point of this being an entire species of lifeform if everyone is basically the same damn thing with a new gimmick?! :p

Characters shouldn't be arbitrarilly split into male and female based on design, they should be self-identifying as male or female, no matter what they look like. I want more characters like Strika or Strongarm, who don't fall to the usual gendered Transformer traps. Just as all of us aren't all either buff men or sexy, big-busted women or into them, Transformers shouldn't always have those two designs.

And honestly, I'd love to see a series helmed by an Optimus Prime and Megatron who identified more as females than their traditional male roles.

I agree that PART of the reason boys like the toys they do is due to advertising. But we shouldn't forget that a lot of what draws kids to the toys that like is partly biological.

Here's a link that talks about toys that chimps are prone to playing with:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... evolution/

I don't dispute that there is a social component at play that might push children into playing with a certain type of toy, but a lot of people will say that it's entirely a social construct. The problem is hard science disagrees with their socially texts.

Munkky wrote:
Delta Magnus wrote:I got permanently banned from TFWiki for DARING to suggest that the fandom isn't full of raging misogynists and that not all criticism of female Transformers is motivated by a pathological hatred of women.


Really? Damn, that's harsh.

I'm not surprised. I try my hardest to avoid those guys. They seem to look for any little excuse to try to exclude people from their circles. If you don't buy into their narrative -whole sale- you're a bad person that needs to go away because you're an "obvious troll". They can't self analyze at all.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Optimum Supreme » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:50 pm

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RAR wrote:There is that joke or story I heard once about the little girl who was given a fire engine toy - she was delighted with it she had a dolls tea party with the fire engine then later that day she dressed it up in a night dress and tucked it into it's cot for the night.

Seems like just as boys will be boys, girls will be girls even if some people may not want either of them to be.


I've heard of boys, when given Barbie style dolls, bend them over then hold the legs and point the heads and go "bang bang" using the doll as a gun.

Not that every boy with a doll like that will do that, just a lot of them. My cousin has a son that went through a really big phase where all he wanted to play with was girls toys and Barbies and such. Whatever.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Prowl4 » Tue May 03, 2016 3:26 pm

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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Prowl4 » Tue May 03, 2016 3:35 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Va'al » Tue May 03, 2016 4:51 pm

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Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Oh no.

The shame.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Prowl4 » Tue May 03, 2016 5:02 pm

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Dr Va'al wrote:
Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Oh no.

The shame.


Yeah not a fan of it. I don't like it.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 03, 2016 5:08 pm

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Prowl4 wrote:
Dr Va'al wrote:
Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Oh no.

The shame.


Yeah not a fan of it. I don't like it.

I'm at a loss for words. Still whatever floats your boat or not as is the case.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Henry921 » Wed May 04, 2016 8:03 am

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Prowl4 wrote:
Dr Va'al wrote:
Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Oh no.

The shame.


Yeah not a fan of it. I don't like it.




Not everyone does. It's a big fandom, and there's room for a lot of different tastes.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Wed May 04, 2016 8:48 am

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Henry921 wrote:
Prowl4 wrote:
Dr Va'al wrote:
Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Oh no.

The shame.


Yeah not a fan of it. I don't like it.




Not everyone does. It's a big fandom, and there's room for a lot of different tastes.


Yeah, I'm a white, approaching middle age, balding, conservative, Christian, grumpy, anti-social, male, and I love MTMTE. According to popular bias, I should be running around trying to burn copies of the book, and forming a Lynch mob for Roberts, but there you go.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Henry921 » Wed May 04, 2016 10:17 am

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Ironhidensh wrote:
Yeah, I'm a white, approaching middle age, balding, conservative, Christian, grumpy, anti-social, male, and I love MTMTE. According to popular bias, I should be running around trying to burn copies of the book, and forming a Lynch mob for Roberts, but there you go.



No, we'll be burning copies of the book and lynching Roberts after he kills off one favorite character too many. ;)
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Fri May 06, 2016 4:32 pm

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Henry921 wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:
Yeah, I'm a white, approaching middle age, balding, conservative, Christian, grumpy, anti-social, male, and I love MTMTE. According to popular bias, I should be running around trying to burn copies of the book, and forming a Lynch mob for Roberts, but there you go.



No, we'll be burning copies of the book and lynching Roberts after he kills off one favorite character too many. ;)


Is Megatron still an Autobot? I mean, we already know that's just a con since in a flash forward, Ironhide mentions they'll take his ass down if he ever shows up again. Just wondering if he's played his hand yet.

Prowl4 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:If you don't already you should give IDW tf comics a try, especially More than Meets the Eye


The idw stuff started well but the recent shift to feminism and homosexuality has put me right off.


Doing it simply and subtly is fine and all...but when it's heavy-handed and in stories about a species where "gender" is a largely arbitrary concept and "reproduction" has been a confusing mystery since Day 1, it's just silly.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Sat May 07, 2016 2:44 am

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Actually that flash forward with ironhide is meaningless now as the planet they were on was obliterated in the present as part of the dark cybertron storyline. As for the genderless thing, only the cybertonians are genderless (aside from arcee- thank jhiaxus for that) all the colony world's had them evolve gender for what ever reason. I don't think it's hindered storytelling at all.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Sat May 07, 2016 3:08 am

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I also don't find it heavy-handed at all. I'm the first one to get fed up when liberal politics are getting beat over my head, but I never get that feeling from MTMTE. The relationships all feel like they flow naturally from the story.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Haohmaru Man » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:28 pm

i dont like my little pony

i like nightbird

and alexis
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Black Hat » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:22 pm

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Sorry to dredge up this manganese-maggot riddled corpse of a thread, but I've just been involved in a completely stupid exchange on the Allspark that semi-relates to this topic.

So in the Ruination thread I said something along the lines of "Y'know, given we got that (canonically male admittedly) redeco of Strongarm as Greejeeber/Rollbar, it'd be kinda cool if we got a combinable female Rollbar. A shame that the Swindle mold is too buff to work as a fembot." and for some reason a bunch of people lost their minds over it. Nobody actually explained what I'd allegedly done that warranted the passive-aggressive, thinly veiled insults I received, and I can only assume someone, somehow...objects to the idea...that the Swindle mold...doesn't look very feminine...?

Is saying that a masculine-looking mold of a male character wouldn't make a very good fembot (oh yeah, and they then criticized my use of the word fembot) somehow offensive? Is it now somehow a faux pas in this fandom to suggest that some molds look more feminine than others? What the hell is wrong with some of these people?

I *BLEEP*ing hate gender politics.
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