The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Burn » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:50 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
If you want to see how Pretender armour COULD work, based on old engineering which could also be easily modernised, cast your eyes over this gem I found.
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:59 am

That looks intriguing, and could be a starting point for Pretenders. But at the least the outer shell would have to modernized with hinges at the joints.
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:20 am

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
Rodimus Prime wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I suppose another thing you could maybe do would be to invert the way Pretender gimmick works and have the human/monster/animal be a small action figure that tucked inside the torso of the now-outer robot, the conceit being that they're "growing" into their true form.
That would make it easier to design the figures, because it's easier to put a robotic armor around a non-robotic base figure. The problem with that is that it would no longer be faithful to the source material. Transformer Pretenders are inner robots with outer non-robotic shells, for the expressed purpose/function of pretending to be something else.
Well, in Masterforce they're explicitly shrunken down to the size of the ordinary humans they're supposed to be pretending to be when in their "shells" and then they sort of morph back to the robot form, which is presented as normal Transformer size rather than Minibot size.
Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.
Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).
Rodimus Prime wrote:But who's to say they don't exist out there somewhere in the cosmos? Bob was a pretty creative guy.
Not in my book, considering certain things he couldn't wrap his head around.
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Oh, it absolutely could be done - just look at SIEGE Ultra Magnus. But you'd have to do that rather than a traditional shell if you wanted articulation while keeping things all-plastic. Of course, it would undercut the disguise factor.
I don't know if Magnus is a great example, his armor does nothing without the inner bot in either mode. Yeah, he might be the closest to the concept, but it's still no cigar.
He's the best it can get without running into problems, and he's what I had in mind when I suggested doing the Pretender suits as multi-part armor the inner robot wore.
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Honestly, the Pretenders concept is interesting, but it's something that's awkward to translate into toy form.
Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.
I said nothing about the elbows because at least on the traditional design the shell's arms don't have to contend with the inner robot's arms.

But the enormity of the clearance problems is why I suggested making the outer shell into an outer suit instead - something made of material that's flexible on its own rather than having to muck about with hinges.
WANT:
Energon Optimus firetruck drone; super mode hat
Ultra-class Optimus Primal missiles, left back panel, mutant mask
Combiner Wars Dead End or Offroad HFG, Breakdown HFG
Armada Thundercracker missile
Armada Optimus front left trailer strut, cheekguards
ROTF Jetfire "JTFR" Panels
Armada Downshift
RID Ultra Magnus missiles
Vector Prime Cyber Key
Armada Jolt, Thunderclash, Clench
RID Galvatron foot/dragon head, 1x launcher/sword hilt
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:17 am

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.
Then it would no longer be a Pretender.
Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).
How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for. And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?
Rodimus Prime wrote:But who's to say they don't exist out there somewhere in the cosmos? Bob was a pretty creative guy.
Not in my book, considering certain things he couldn't wrap his head around.
Okay, that's just a matter of opinion and ours differ on the subject. Moving on.
Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.
How? The inner robot was articulate and actually looked like its counterpart in both the comic and TV show. It might not have been exactly as detailed, but that was due to the inner robot's size, which wouldn't be a problem this time around if the inner bot was a deluxe. It had 2legs and arms that could bend and fold, 2 hands that could hold a weapon, and a head with a detailed face. The shells were more primitive, but as Burn said, it was 80s engineering. Hasbro can do better this time around.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.
I said nothing about the elbows because at least on the traditional design the shell's arms don't have to contend with the inner robot's arms.
Okay fair enough. I oversimplified the articulation issues, but I'm well aware that there would need to be a lot more precise tooling for the shells. The point I was trying to make was that it can be done with modern engineering. I should have been clearer. For what it's worth I do agree that a shell or suit made from parts of that can be taken apart is much more manageable than a shell that's just a couple of big pieces. But Magnus is still not good enough. His armor didn't cover his whole body.
But the enormity of the clearance problems is why I suggested making the outer shell into an outer suit instead - something made of material that's flexible on its own rather than having to muck about with hinges.
I'm not against new ideas, if it's not detrimental to the overall figure as a whole (both the inner figure and shell together). Do you happen to have any examples of this from another toy line perhaps?
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
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My fanfics:
disaster-transport--p1927519.php#p1927519
the-bad-seed--p1909021.php#p1909021
stories-from-a-wild-and-crazy-con--t109626.php
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Burn » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:50 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
The engineering required for super awesome articulation, if even possible, would price it out of regular retail.

SOME articulation is an improvement over the original and PotP shells.
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:06 am

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
Rodimus Prime wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.
Then it would no longer be a Pretender.
Not as such, no, but it would give both forms fully-functioning toys with minimal hassle.
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).
How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.
Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.
Rodimus Prime wrote:And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?
Nobody. But Budiansky failed to contrive that possibility despite mass shifting being well-established, and so instead he contrived a planet of giant women to justify the shells.

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.
How?
Here's how:
1. From a real-world standpoint, it feels kinda awkward to have the giant alien robot's supposed human/monster/animal disguise be bigger than the giant alien robot.
2. The decision to go with hard shells meant the disguise was a brick, and it also forced the robot component (nominally the true form) to be a midget.
3. The visual design of the shells made them about as plausible a disguise as these:
Image
Image

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.
I said nothing about the elbows because at least on the traditional design the shell's arms don't have to contend with the inner robot's arms.
Okay fair enough. I oversimplified the articulation issues, but I'm well aware that there would need to be a lot more precise tooling for the shells. The point I was trying to make was that it can be done with modern engineering.
Even with modern engineering, it would be tricky and probably be more trouble than it's worth. The backs of the knees would have to be open or else have hinged panels that could bend outward when the knee flexed. To allow hip articulation while still having the legs be attached to the rest of the shell, the legs would have to be connected either by a lot of delicate struts, or by hidden strings.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I should have been clearer. For what it's worth I do agree that a shell or suit made from parts of that can be taken apart is much more manageable than a shell that's just a couple of big pieces. But Magnus is still not good enough. His armor didn't cover his whole body.
No, but it covers a lot of it, and covering more would be a matter of adding more pieces. But there's something it doesn't cover that you wouldn't want to cover, and that's the joints :P

Rodimus Prime wrote:
But the enormity of the clearance problems is why I suggested making the outer shell into an outer suit instead - something made of material that's flexible on its own rather than having to muck about with hinges.
I'm not against new ideas, if it's not detrimental to the overall figure as a whole (both the inner figure and shell together). Do you happen to have any examples of this from another toy line perhaps?
Yes. Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
WANT:
Energon Optimus firetruck drone; super mode hat
Ultra-class Optimus Primal missiles, left back panel, mutant mask
Combiner Wars Dead End or Offroad HFG, Breakdown HFG
Armada Thundercracker missile
Armada Optimus front left trailer strut, cheekguards
ROTF Jetfire "JTFR" Panels
Armada Downshift
RID Ultra Magnus missiles
Vector Prime Cyber Key
Armada Jolt, Thunderclash, Clench
RID Galvatron foot/dragon head, 1x launcher/sword hilt
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:30 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).
How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.
Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.
Okay, we're just splitting hairs on this one. He could have made the pretenders smaller just as well as leaving them bigger. Not every character had to be the size of Earth humans. It's a possibility that there are giant humanoids out there on some distant planet, and the story took place far from Earth. So Bob went with that, as he had the freedom to do so. Liking it or not is a matter of opinion. The comic wasn't required to follow the tv show. That's what made it different (and better, IMO).
1. From a real-world standpoint, it feels kinda awkward to have the giant alien robot's supposed human/monster/animal disguise be bigger than the giant alien robot.
That's a personal viewpoint and you're entitled to it. I disagree.
2. The decision to go with hard shells meant the disguise was a brick, and it also forced the robot component (nominally the true form) to be a midget.
I don't think it was a decision that was made optimistically. I think it was something they had to do given the level of engineering and budget allotted to the designers. They would have articulated the shells if they had the money. Just my guess.
3. The visual design of the shells made them about as plausible a disguise as these:
Image
Image
Once again, personal opinion, a rather harsh and unfair one I might add, and one I heavily disagree with. Both in media and the toys each of the shells was adequate in hiding the true form of its occupant.
Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans? :lol: :lol:
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
Image

My fanfics:
disaster-transport--p1927519.php#p1927519
the-bad-seed--p1909021.php#p1909021
stories-from-a-wild-and-crazy-con--t109626.php
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
With regard to the shells:
1. They wouldn't have articulated the shells in the '80s if they had the money. Bear in mind that G1's level of engineering at that point was decidedly dumbed down compared to Diaclone and Micro Change. Articulating the shells would be Bayformer complex if not worse.
2. The human ones ARE rubbish disguises. They may technically obscure the robot inside, but they blend in about as well as someone walking around in a theme park mascot suit.

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans? :lol: :lol:
Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.

Here's a different approach:
Bring back the PotP decoy suits and make the Pretenders also Headmasters (with the head robots looking like the main ones in miniature). The shells wouldn't be improved articulation-wise, but at that size it would be a lot less painful. And you'd preserve the idea of a robot hiding in a suit.
WANT:
Energon Optimus firetruck drone; super mode hat
Ultra-class Optimus Primal missiles, left back panel, mutant mask
Combiner Wars Dead End or Offroad HFG, Breakdown HFG
Armada Thundercracker missile
Armada Optimus front left trailer strut, cheekguards
ROTF Jetfire "JTFR" Panels
Armada Downshift
RID Ultra Magnus missiles
Vector Prime Cyber Key
Armada Jolt, Thunderclash, Clench
RID Galvatron foot/dragon head, 1x launcher/sword hilt
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:15 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:With regard to the shells:
1. They wouldn't have articulated the shells in the '80s if they had the money. Bear in mind that G1's level of engineering at that point was decidedly dumbed down compared to Diaclone and Micro Change. Articulating the shells would be Bayformer complex if not worse.
Exactly. They did what they could with what they had. The money is just 1 aspect.
2 :DANCE: . The human ones ARE rubbish disguises. They may technically obscure the robot inside, but they blend in about as well as someone walking around in a theme park mascot suit.
Like I said, matter of opinion. :-D

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans? :lol: :lol:
Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.
You can highlight it all you want, it doesn't change the argument.
Here's a different approach:
Bring back the PotP decoy suits and make the Pretenders also Headmasters (with the head robots looking like the main ones in miniature). The shells wouldn't be improved articulation-wise, but at that size it would be a lot less painful. And you'd preserve the idea of a robot hiding in a suit.
Once again, they would no longer be pretenders, not traditionally. And what about the smaller bot? If the head is the true identity, all we have is a headmaster with a double transtector.
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
Image

My fanfics:
disaster-transport--p1927519.php#p1927519
the-bad-seed--p1909021.php#p1909021
stories-from-a-wild-and-crazy-con--t109626.php
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:52 pm

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans? :lol: :lol:
Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.
You can highlight it all you want, it doesn't change the argument.
Of course it doesn't change the argument. The point is to get you on the same page as me. I'm arguing that ditching hard shells for fabric-based suits would be an easy solution engineering-wise, because fabric bends on its own. And that that basic concept scales down.

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Here's a different approach:
Bring back the PotP decoy suits and make the Pretenders also Headmasters (with the head robots looking like the main ones in miniature). The shells wouldn't be improved articulation-wise, but at that size it would be a lot less painful. And you'd preserve the idea of a robot hiding in a suit.
Once again, they would no longer be pretenders, not traditionally.
They'd be close enough to it, IMO.
Rodimus Prime wrote:And what about the smaller bot? If the head is the true identity, all we have is a headmaster with a double transtector.
No, what you have is a Headmaster with a Pretender suit for the head to wear when not attached to the body.. It's only a "double transtector" if the Pretender suit combines with transtector, which is not what I proposed. When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
WANT:
Energon Optimus firetruck drone; super mode hat
Ultra-class Optimus Primal missiles, left back panel, mutant mask
Combiner Wars Dead End or Offroad HFG, Breakdown HFG
Armada Thundercracker missile
Armada Optimus front left trailer strut, cheekguards
ROTF Jetfire "JTFR" Panels
Armada Downshift
RID Ultra Magnus missiles
Vector Prime Cyber Key
Armada Jolt, Thunderclash, Clench
RID Galvatron foot/dragon head, 1x launcher/sword hilt
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:32 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:The point is to get you on the same page as me. I'm arguing that ditching hard shells for fabric-based suits would be an easy solution engineering-wise, because fabric bends on its own. And that that basic concept scales down.
I wasn't saying it couldn't work, but I prefer the shell to be solid and more durable. Cloth wouldn't work well, especially if the toy is in the hands of a child, and that's who Hasbro is aiming for. Also, there's the risk of choking hazards and to a lesser extent the parts getting lost. Yes, that happens with solid parts as well, but not as easily.
What you have is a Headmaster with a Pretender suit for the head to wear when not attached to the body.. It's only a "double transtector" if the Pretender suit combines with transtector, which is not what I proposed. When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
Okay, I misread the previous post. I thought you were talking about the leader class figures, not the Titan masters. In that case, I can see that being a compromise solution. Still wouldn't be a true pretender though. :-P
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
Image

My fanfics:
disaster-transport--p1927519.php#p1927519
the-bad-seed--p1909021.php#p1909021
stories-from-a-wild-and-crazy-con--t109626.php
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ThunderThruster » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:46 am

Weapon: Twin Shoulder-Mounted Rocket Launchers
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).
How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.
Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.
Rodimus Prime wrote:And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?
Nobody. But Budiansky failed to contrive that possibility despite mass shifting being well-established, and so instead he contrived a planet of giant women to justify the shells.

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.
How?
Here's how:
1. From a real-world standpoint, it feels kinda awkward to have the giant alien robot's supposed human/monster/animal disguise be bigger than the giant alien robot.
2. The decision to go with hard shells meant the disguise was a brick, and it also forced the robot component (nominally the true form) to be a midget.
3. The visual design of the shells made them about as plausible a disguise as these:
Image
Image


Even in the comic it was highlighted that they are "large" for humans. This panels show the Con pretenders reaction when first coming across the Bot pretneders. So either the armour disguise's work or the cons are just stupid.
comic-pretenders.jpg
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rogue-Primal » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:16 pm

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ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.

Those were fine, just a bit too small Since Hasbro wanted them to be compatible with those black PotP armor pieces that turn into combiner arms and legs.

I'm sure Hasbro can find a way to upscale them a bit more by making the inner figure at least legends class to avoid overly complex transformation parts (i'm talking like movie legends sizes) and the suits upscaled from there.
In short a slightly bulky deluxe that fits around it.

If the inner robot were to be deluxes then the outer shell would have to be a voyager or leader size shell. adding complex poseability for the shell is a bigger problem. That's why legends fits better for a inner robot.
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby Black Hat » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:26 pm

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One idea I think would be neat for Pretender updates would be the "power armour" approach- so either the Siege "Voyager with extra stuff sold at Leader price" except Deluxe scale sold at Voyager price, or the POTP Leader class "super mode" thing (a Deluxe that can form the core of a larger robot) except smaller and done better. Same basic principle but far less limiting.
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:06 pm

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
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Rogue-Primal wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.

Those were fine, just a bit too small Since Hasbro wanted them to be compatible with those black PotP armor pieces that turn into combiner arms and legs.

I'm sure Hasbro can find a way to upscale them a bit more by making the inner figure at least legends class to avoid overly complex transformation parts (i'm talking like movie legends sizes) and the suits upscaled from there.
In short a slightly bulky deluxe that fits around it.

If the inner robot were to be deluxes then the outer shell would have to be a voyager or leader size shell. adding complex poseability for the shell is a bigger problem. That's why legends fits better for a inner robot.

Try reading the whole post next time :roll: I'm talking about giving up on stuffing the entire robot in a Pretender Shell and instead just sticking the head in a Pretender shell as a compromise. That way the Pretender gimmick would be preserved to a degree, but without the main robot suffering. And at the size of the PotP Decoy Armor, the Pretender Shells lacking articulation would be much less of a loss.

Here's a proof of concept for what I'm talking about:
* Take Titans Return Metalhawk.
* Take Power of the Primes "Vector Prime with Metalhawk Decoy Armor"
* Unscrew Metalhawk's faceplate from the original "Professor Go" Titan Master.
* Disassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master and paint to enhance the appearance (obviously might not happen on a retail toy, but it helps)
* Reassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master, except with TR Metalhawk's faceplate instead of the insignia.
* Set aside the Prime Insignia and the "Professor Go" Titan Master
The remainder: A full-size Metalhawk transtector, a smaller Metalhawk Headmaster resembling his original robot mode in miniature, and a Pretender Shell for that Headmaster to wear.

Of course, that proof of concept isn't perfect - ideally, if the concept was implemented the Pretenders' Transtectors would be their own molds and not headswap redecoes of Titans Return toys - but it hopefully makes the idea more clear.

Takara has actually entertained this compromise concept before - remember how LGEX Grand Max's Pretender Shell would have been done if he'd reached the necessary preorder target?
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Re: War for Cybertron Trilogy figures you'd like to see

Postby Rogue-Primal » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:58 pm

Motto: "I hate Decepticons but Autobot traitors are the worst."
Weapon: Particle Beam Rifle
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
Rogue-Primal wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.

Those were fine, just a bit too small Since Hasbro wanted them to be compatible with those black PotP armor pieces that turn into combiner arms and legs.

I'm sure Hasbro can find a way to upscale them a bit more by making the inner figure at least legends class to avoid overly complex transformation parts (i'm talking like movie legends sizes) and the suits upscaled from there.
In short a slightly bulky deluxe that fits around it.

If the inner robot were to be deluxes then the outer shell would have to be a voyager or leader size shell. adding complex poseability for the shell is a bigger problem. That's why legends fits better for a inner robot.

Try reading the whole post next time :roll: I'm talking about giving up on stuffing the entire robot in a Pretender Shell and instead just sticking the head in a Pretender shell as a compromise. That way the Pretender gimmick would be preserved to a degree, but without the main robot suffering. And at the size of the PotP Decoy Armor, the Pretender Shells lacking articulation would be much less of a loss.

Here's a proof of concept for what I'm talking about:
* Take Titans Return Metalhawk.
* Take Power of the Primes "Vector Prime with Metalhawk Decoy Armor"
* Unscrew Metalhawk's faceplate from the original "Professor Go" Titan Master.
* Disassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master and paint to enhance the appearance (obviously might not happen on a retail toy, but it helps)
* Reassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master, except with TR Metalhawk's faceplate instead of the insignia.
* Set aside the Prime Insignia and the "Professor Go" Titan Master
The remainder: A full-size Metalhawk transtector, a smaller Metalhawk Headmaster resembling his original robot mode in miniature, and a Pretender Shell for that Headmaster to wear.

Of course, that proof of concept isn't perfect - ideally, if the concept was implemented the Pretenders' Transtectors would be their own molds and not headswap redecoes of Titans Return toys - but it hopefully makes the idea more clear.

Takara has actually entertained this compromise concept before - remember how LGEX Grand Max's Pretender Shell would have been done if he'd reached the necessary preorder target?


I get what you're saying but the idea is a little too weird for a modern idea.
Here's another type of pretender (or borrowing their names) for a character
Revenge of the Fallen Bludgeon may have been cool back in the day but looking back he is a overdetailed mess and the yellow remains out of place on the robot a even when the orange and red is tucked away in the giant tank mode.
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby bodrock » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:42 pm

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Personally, I’d prefer the outer-shell be made of a material that doesn’t need hinges or other points that would prevent articulation with the bot inside. The Prime Masters is likely the most we will get but who knows? Until then, I do manage to enjoy all the scales we have for Pretenders...
15EECD4C-BF70-48CE-B8D2-257D9B3420F7.jpeg
Scorponok City
4CF87554-31F3-46BE-BA38-E824E41929D5.jpeg
Scales
F1260868-DF91-44B2-AED7-20AFEE6BB08D.jpeg
KING ‘CON & the World’s Smallest Bee
Transform & MEMEIFY!

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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:24 pm

Motto: "Love it? GET IT!
It's that simple."
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All right, folks, anyone feeling rich and have money to burn?

Takara Transformers / Victory Transformers V D310 Blue Bacchus
Image

Takara Transformers / Victory D309 Transformers V black shadow
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Those are indeed incredible grails!
(Still looking for a Metalhawk to pop up.)
Relax, chill, and stay safe!

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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:32 pm

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I long just to see one in person
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:35 pm

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
Those are Crossformers, not Pretenders, though. :-P They had their heads altered to remove the Pretender aspect because Pretenders flopped in Japan.
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:02 pm

Motto: "Love it? GET IT!
It's that simple."
Weapon: Mace
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Those are Crossformers, not Pretenders, though. :-P They had their heads altered to remove the Pretender aspect because Pretenders flopped in Japan.



Even if you call this an orange, that's still an apple. [-(

Also, yeah, seeing one in person even behind bullet proof glass, it would be awesome.
Relax, chill, and stay safe!

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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:12 pm

Motto: "It's unnerving and insulting when people in a toy-based fandom, whatever it is, make statements to the effect that general consumers and fans of lesser financial means should be deprived entirely of the ability to partake of the primary market."
Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
To be a Pretender, a Transformer has to be disguised as an organic being. Black Shadow and Blue Bacchus had that trait removed compared to Thunderwing and Crossblades.
WANT:
Energon Optimus firetruck drone; super mode hat
Ultra-class Optimus Primal missiles, left back panel, mutant mask
Combiner Wars Dead End or Offroad HFG, Breakdown HFG
Armada Thundercracker missile
Armada Optimus front left trailer strut, cheekguards
ROTF Jetfire "JTFR" Panels
Armada Downshift
RID Ultra Magnus missiles
Vector Prime Cyber Key
Armada Jolt, Thunderclash, Clench
RID Galvatron foot/dragon head, 1x launcher/sword hilt
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:01 pm

Motto: "Love it? GET IT!
It's that simple."
Weapon: Mace
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:To be a Pretender, a Transformer has to be disguised as an organic being. Black Shadow and Blue Bacchus had that trait removed compared to Thunderwing and Crossblades.


Are ou sure about that?

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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:52 pm

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-Kanrabat- wrote:Image
Image

Still my 2 favorites (besides Oilmaster), it felt so good to put those guys together, and I love them.

They need proper updates, or even an update
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Re: The Pretenders - Robots in Synthoplasmic Outer-Shell Disguise!

Postby bodrock » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:26 pm

Motto: "Spare me this mockery of justice!"
Weapon: Heat-Seeking Laser Blasters
I would love to have Blue Bacchus and Black Shadow!! But certainly not for that much — they mind as well be the same price as Metalhawk, since they would all be unobtainable for me. ;)

I do love all variations of Pretenders....
Transform & MEMEIFY!

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