Well, in Masterforce they're explicitly shrunken down to the size of the ordinary humans they're supposed to be pretending to be when in their "shells" and then they sort of morph back to the robot form, which is presented as normal Transformer size rather than Minibot size.Rodimus Prime wrote:That would make it easier to design the figures, because it's easier to put a robotic armor around a non-robotic base figure. The problem with that is that it would no longer be faithful to the source material. Transformer Pretenders are inner robots with outer non-robotic shells, for the expressed purpose/function of pretending to be something else.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I suppose another thing you could maybe do would be to invert the way Pretender gimmick works and have the human/monster/animal be a small action figure that tucked inside the torso of the now-outer robot, the conceit being that they're "growing" into their true form.
I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
Not in my book, considering certain things he couldn't wrap his head around.Rodimus Prime wrote:But who's to say they don't exist out there somewhere in the cosmos? Bob was a pretty creative guy.
He's the best it can get without running into problems, and he's what I had in mind when I suggested doing the Pretender suits as multi-part armor the inner robot wore.Rodimus Prime wrote:I don't know if Magnus is a great example, his armor does nothing without the inner bot in either mode. Yeah, he might be the closest to the concept, but it's still no cigar.Oh, it absolutely could be done - just look at SIEGE Ultra Magnus. But you'd have to do that rather than a traditional shell if you wanted articulation while keeping things all-plastic. Of course, it would undercut the disguise factor.
No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.Honestly, the Pretenders concept is interesting, but it's something that's awkward to translate into toy form.
It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
Then it would no longer be a Pretender.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for. And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
Okay, that's just a matter of opinion and ours differ on the subject. Moving on.Not in my book, considering certain things he couldn't wrap his head around.Rodimus Prime wrote:But who's to say they don't exist out there somewhere in the cosmos? Bob was a pretty creative guy.
How? The inner robot was articulate and actually looked like its counterpart in both the comic and TV show. It might not have been exactly as detailed, but that was due to the inner robot's size, which wouldn't be a problem this time around if the inner bot was a deluxe. It had 2legs and arms that could bend and fold, 2 hands that could hold a weapon, and a head with a detailed face. The shells were more primitive, but as Burn said, it was 80s engineering. Hasbro can do better this time around.No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
Okay fair enough. I oversimplified the articulation issues, but I'm well aware that there would need to be a lot more precise tooling for the shells. The point I was trying to make was that it can be done with modern engineering. I should have been clearer. For what it's worth I do agree that a shell or suit made from parts of that can be taken apart is much more manageable than a shell that's just a couple of big pieces. But Magnus is still not good enough. His armor didn't cover his whole body.It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
I said nothing about the elbows because at least on the traditional design the shell's arms don't have to contend with the inner robot's arms.
I'm not against new ideas, if it's not detrimental to the overall figure as a whole (both the inner figure and shell together). Do you happen to have any examples of this from another toy line perhaps?But the enormity of the clearance problems is why I suggested making the outer shell into an outer suit instead - something made of material that's flexible on its own rather than having to muck about with hinges.
Not as such, no, but it would give both forms fully-functioning toys with minimal hassle.Rodimus Prime wrote:Then it would no longer be a Pretender.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I don't think it does, and it allows for the robot to be normal-size rather than forced to be a midget. But I frankly think giving up on the gimmick of putting the two toys into each other altogether would be better.Rodimus Prime wrote:If that's inverted, it becomes confusing and kind of against the grain.
Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.Rodimus Prime wrote:How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
Nobody. But Budiansky failed to contrive that possibility despite mass shifting being well-established, and so instead he contrived a planet of giant women to justify the shells.Rodimus Prime wrote:And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?
Here's how:Rodimus Prime wrote:How?No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
Even with modern engineering, it would be tricky and probably be more trouble than it's worth. The backs of the knees would have to be open or else have hinged panels that could bend outward when the knee flexed. To allow hip articulation while still having the legs be attached to the rest of the shell, the legs would have to be connected either by a lot of delicate struts, or by hidden strings.Rodimus Prime wrote:Okay fair enough. I oversimplified the articulation issues, but I'm well aware that there would need to be a lot more precise tooling for the shells. The point I was trying to make was that it can be done with modern engineering.It would take more than that. See, just adding hinges to the knees wouldn't be enough. For one thing, that doesn't cover hip articulation at all. For another... the inner robot would get in the way of the leg. It's not enough to make the shell bend in the same places as the inner robot. You also need to give clearance around the inner robot where the joints, otherwise it'll block the shell. And how do you give clearance for the hips to bend both forward and backward while keeping the basic traditional shell intact? Never mind sideways hip movement. Or thigh swivels.Rodimus Prime wrote:I would think they could do the same now, except make the shells more articulate instead of just hard single pieces, (all it takes is hinges in the knees and elbows)
I said nothing about the elbows because at least on the traditional design the shell's arms don't have to contend with the inner robot's arms.
No, but it covers a lot of it, and covering more would be a matter of adding more pieces. But there's something it doesn't cover that you wouldn't want to cover, and that's the jointsRodimus Prime wrote:I should have been clearer. For what it's worth I do agree that a shell or suit made from parts of that can be taken apart is much more manageable than a shell that's just a couple of big pieces. But Magnus is still not good enough. His armor didn't cover his whole body.
Yes. Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.Rodimus Prime wrote:I'm not against new ideas, if it's not detrimental to the overall figure as a whole (both the inner figure and shell together). Do you happen to have any examples of this from another toy line perhaps?But the enormity of the clearance problems is why I suggested making the outer shell into an outer suit instead - something made of material that's flexible on its own rather than having to muck about with hinges.
Okay, we're just splitting hairs on this one. He could have made the pretenders smaller just as well as leaving them bigger. Not every character had to be the size of Earth humans. It's a possibility that there are giant humanoids out there on some distant planet, and the story took place far from Earth. So Bob went with that, as he had the freedom to do so. Liking it or not is a matter of opinion. The comic wasn't required to follow the tv show. That's what made it different (and better, IMO).ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.Rodimus Prime wrote:How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.
That's a personal viewpoint and you're entitled to it. I disagree.1. From a real-world standpoint, it feels kinda awkward to have the giant alien robot's supposed human/monster/animal disguise be bigger than the giant alien robot.
I don't think it was a decision that was made optimistically. I think it was something they had to do given the level of engineering and budget allotted to the designers. They would have articulated the shells if they had the money. Just my guess.2. The decision to go with hard shells meant the disguise was a brick, and it also forced the robot component (nominally the true form) to be a midget.
Once again, personal opinion, a rather harsh and unfair one I might add, and one I heavily disagree with. Both in media and the toys each of the shells was adequate in hiding the true form of its occupant.
That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans?Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.Rodimus Prime wrote:That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans?Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
Exactly. They did what they could with what they had. The money is just 1 aspect.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:With regard to the shells:
1. They wouldn't have articulated the shells in the '80s if they had the money. Bear in mind that G1's level of engineering at that point was decidedly dumbed down compared to Diaclone and Micro Change. Articulating the shells would be Bayformer complex if not worse.
Like I said, matter of opinion.2 . The human ones ARE rubbish disguises. They may technically obscure the robot inside, but they blend in about as well as someone walking around in a theme park mascot suit.
You can highlight it all you want, it doesn't change the argument.Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.Rodimus Prime wrote:That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans?Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
Once again, they would no longer be pretenders, not traditionally. And what about the smaller bot? If the head is the true identity, all we have is a headmaster with a double transtector.Here's a different approach:
Bring back the PotP decoy suits and make the Pretenders also Headmasters (with the head robots looking like the main ones in miniature). The shells wouldn't be improved articulation-wise, but at that size it would be a lot less painful. And you'd preserve the idea of a robot hiding in a suit.
Of course it doesn't change the argument. The point is to get you on the same page as me. I'm arguing that ditching hard shells for fabric-based suits would be an easy solution engineering-wise, because fabric bends on its own. And that that basic concept scales down.Rodimus Prime wrote:You can highlight it all you want, it doesn't change the argument.Size has nothing to do with it! The key point is material! I brought up the 12" GI Joe type figures because they are or at least were one of the more common users, but the principle scales down because the key point is the base layer of the suit being fabric or flexible vinyl rather than hard plastic.Rodimus Prime wrote:That's what most of this boils down to, size. It would be easier to engineer a functional articulated shell for a 12" figure than a 6" deluxe or even a 9" voyager. But who would buy leader class pretenders besides us hardcore fans?Any armored 12" G.I. Joe type figure where the armor is a separate article (or articles plural) rather than built into the figure. It's made of hard or soft plastic pieces, and either jointed by fabric. or fits on over the base fabric layer of clothing.
They'd be close enough to it, IMO.Rodimus Prime wrote:Once again, they would no longer be pretenders, not traditionally.Here's a different approach:
Bring back the PotP decoy suits and make the Pretenders also Headmasters (with the head robots looking like the main ones in miniature). The shells wouldn't be improved articulation-wise, but at that size it would be a lot less painful. And you'd preserve the idea of a robot hiding in a suit.
No, what you have is a Headmaster with a Pretender suit for the head to wear when not attached to the body.. It's only a "double transtector" if the Pretender suit combines with transtector, which is not what I proposed. When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.Rodimus Prime wrote:And what about the smaller bot? If the head is the true identity, all we have is a headmaster with a double transtector.
I wasn't saying it couldn't work, but I prefer the shell to be solid and more durable. Cloth wouldn't work well, especially if the toy is in the hands of a child, and that's who Hasbro is aiming for. Also, there's the risk of choking hazards and to a lesser extent the parts getting lost. Yes, that happens with solid parts as well, but not as easily.ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:The point is to get you on the same page as me. I'm arguing that ditching hard shells for fabric-based suits would be an easy solution engineering-wise, because fabric bends on its own. And that that basic concept scales down.
Okay, I misread the previous post. I thought you were talking about the leader class figures, not the Titan masters. In that case, I can see that being a compromise solution. Still wouldn't be a true pretender though.What you have is a Headmaster with a Pretender suit for the head to wear when not attached to the body.. It's only a "double transtector" if the Pretender suit combines with transtector, which is not what I proposed. When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Except, from a real world standpoint, it seems to me that Budiansky was obviously working backwards from the toys and came up with the giant women to justify the supposed disguises being bigger than the robot robot bodies.Rodimus Prime wrote:How so? They were on an alien planet with giant women. It was exactly the kind of covert operation the shells were made for.That is exactly what I'm ragging on Bob about. That and presenting the Pretenders' human disguises as giant at all (which undercuts the idea IMO).Rodimus Prime wrote:And don't rag on ol' Bob, he did what he could with what he was given by Hasbro. Cloudburst and Landmine were in Masterforce before they made it to the comics, so Budiansky didn't really have a choice. Now, if you want to talk about them being with the giant amazon women, that's different.Nobody. But Budiansky failed to contrive that possibility despite mass shifting being well-established, and so instead he contrived a planet of giant women to justify the shells.Rodimus Prime wrote:And even though it was never specified in the comics, at least not to my memory, who says they can't shrink down with mass displacement, like they did in Masterforce?Here's how:Rodimus Prime wrote:How?No it didn't, it was an awkward mess. The fact that the supposed human "disguises" are ensconced in dorky-looking space suits or else looked like knockoff He-Man toys doesn't exactly help matters.Rodimus Prime wrote:Well, they managed it 33 years ago, and it worked well enough.
1. From a real-world standpoint, it feels kinda awkward to have the giant alien robot's supposed human/monster/animal disguise be bigger than the giant alien robot.
2. The decision to go with hard shells meant the disguise was a brick, and it also forced the robot component (nominally the true form) to be a midget.
3. The visual design of the shells made them about as plausible a disguise as these:
Tekka wrote:What she doesn't realize is that Springer actually loves Rodimus.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
Rogue-Primal wrote:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
Those were fine, just a bit too small Since Hasbro wanted them to be compatible with those black PotP armor pieces that turn into combiner arms and legs.
I'm sure Hasbro can find a way to upscale them a bit more by making the inner figure at least legends class to avoid overly complex transformation parts (i'm talking like movie legends sizes) and the suits upscaled from there.
In short a slightly bulky deluxe that fits around it.
If the inner robot were to be deluxes then the outer shell would have to be a voyager or leader size shell. adding complex poseability for the shell is a bigger problem. That's why legends fits better for a inner robot.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Rogue-Primal wrote:ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote: When I said "Bring back the PotP decoy suits" I meant exactly that.
Those were fine, just a bit too small Since Hasbro wanted them to be compatible with those black PotP armor pieces that turn into combiner arms and legs.
I'm sure Hasbro can find a way to upscale them a bit more by making the inner figure at least legends class to avoid overly complex transformation parts (i'm talking like movie legends sizes) and the suits upscaled from there.
In short a slightly bulky deluxe that fits around it.
If the inner robot were to be deluxes then the outer shell would have to be a voyager or leader size shell. adding complex poseability for the shell is a bigger problem. That's why legends fits better for a inner robot.
Try reading the whole post next time I'm talking about giving up on stuffing the entire robot in a Pretender Shell and instead just sticking the head in a Pretender shell as a compromise. That way the Pretender gimmick would be preserved to a degree, but without the main robot suffering. And at the size of the PotP Decoy Armor, the Pretender Shells lacking articulation would be much less of a loss.
Here's a proof of concept for what I'm talking about:
* Take Titans Return Metalhawk.
* Take Power of the Primes "Vector Prime with Metalhawk Decoy Armor"
* Unscrew Metalhawk's faceplate from the original "Professor Go" Titan Master.
* Disassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master and paint to enhance the appearance (obviously might not happen on a retail toy, but it helps)
* Reassemble the Metalhawk-based Prime Master, except with TR Metalhawk's faceplate instead of the insignia.
* Set aside the Prime Insignia and the "Professor Go" Titan Master
The remainder: A full-size Metalhawk transtector, a smaller Metalhawk Headmaster resembling his original robot mode in miniature, and a Pretender Shell for that Headmaster to wear.
Of course, that proof of concept isn't perfect - ideally, if the concept was implemented the Pretenders' Transtectors would be their own molds and not headswap redecoes of Titans Return toys - but it hopefully makes the idea more clear.
Takara has actually entertained this compromise concept before - remember how LGEX Grand Max's Pretender Shell would have been done if he'd reached the necessary preorder target?
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Those are Crossformers, not Pretenders, though. They had their heads altered to remove the Pretender aspect because Pretenders flopped in Japan.
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:To be a Pretender, a Transformer has to be disguised as an organic being. Black Shadow and Blue Bacchus had that trait removed compared to Thunderwing and Crossblades.
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