Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Did I honestly miss a memo where Bay said he was targeting this at adults?

Kids are witnessing executions on screen. I don't know if things have just changed in kids media these days, but brutal executions as characters beg for their lives just isn't something I'd ever imagine seeing in something aimed at children.

And at the end of the day, this is JUST a movie. The argument around Prime being too brutal and too violent simply because "in a real war, you have to be" doesn't make sense in a film about giant alien robots that are supposed to entertain kids. It is just a film and as such can take creative leave from reality. So yes, in real life, the Decepticons might well execute unarmed prisoners as they plead for mercy, but that doesn't need to be shown so graphically.

That's what it is to be a director, to take your subject matter and translate it into the 'language of film', choosing what you show and how you show it. So fine, Bay decides to show the unapologetic brutality of combat, that's his creative decision and that's perfectly okay. But is it okay to expose kids to that concept?

It's not seeing a robot's processor getting blown out that disturbs me, its the denial of mercy. I've always found that generally disturbing and to see it now in what seems to be a film aimed at children disturbs me almost just as much.

Thoughts?

Kids need to learn this kind of stuff early so it's not shocking to them when they witness it in real life.

Plus, this is the stuff these bad ass kids do all the time anyway.

SlyTF1 wrote:Kids need to learn this kind of stuff early so it's not shocking to them when they witness it in real life.

It's absolutely necessary for a kid to see someone beg for their life and be killed because... they will themselves see it at some point in their life?

These can be taught to a person, but they have a good few few decades to learn that. Why do it to them when they're young and just want to enjoy life?

Plus, this is the stuff these bad ass kids do all the time anyway.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

It seems to be a double standard indeed. The same thoughts where brought up around the release of the previous movies, I think.

On the one hand, it is a kids franchise. But the movie isn't advertised (over here, at least) during times when kids are watching TV. I don't think younger kids are the target audience at all, they've got the Prime cartoons. This is more for the 10+ kids, who've seen this stuff before in video games and could go the the movies by themselves.
Plus, as it is with any other movie, cartoon or game, parents still get to put everything in perspective.

SlyTF1 wrote:Kids need to learn this kind of stuff early so it's not shocking to them when they witness it in real life.

Plus, this is the stuff these bad ass kids do all the time anyway.

I couldn't disagree with you more on this. And I'd like to step away from Transformers for a second and discuss this with you. Especially if you intend to live in a world where your children will one day witness real life executions!

I was watching the Daily Show yesterday (Episode: 2011 06 30), and John Stewart brought up a segment about the lifting of restrictions of violent video games to minors. Aside from the rather silly and hilarious "Super Mario Boners" spoof, he used the latest Mortal Kombat game as an illustration of what is being made available for sale to young children.

The scene used was shocking even for a 28 year old man like myself that has seen a lot of gore over the years.

If you haven't played the game yourself, I'd suggest taking a look at the episode and coming to a thought out judgement about just what you'd like your potential children to have access to.

RhA wrote:It seems to be a double standard indeed. The same thoughts where brought up around the release of the previous movies, I think.

On the one hand, it is a kids franchise. But the movie isn't advertised (over here, at least) during times when kids are watching TV. I don't think younger kids are the target audience at all, they've got the Prime cartoons. This is more for the 10+ kids, who've seen this stuff before in video games and could go the the movies by themselves.
Plus, as it is with any other movie, cartoon or game, parents still get to put everything in perspective.

I didn't know how it was handled in the states.

That in mind, though, it makes very little sense to take a toy franchise aimed at children and redirect it at adults whose only appreciation of the films would be through nostalgia and as we've seen, the films don't really cater to that either.

Over here, certainly, I'm hearing the squawking of children constantly in the cinema. I recall a child asking if Bumblebee was bad now because he opened fire on that checkpoint in the film's introduction.

Isn't it a PG-13 rating? So....I understand that means parental guidance for kids under 13? Kids in there without being 13 and on there own, I'd say either why did the theater let them in without an adult or the parents don't mind?

Tekka wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:Kids need to learn this kind of stuff early so it's not shocking to them when they witness it in real life.

Plus, this is the stuff these bad ass kids do all the time anyway.

I couldn't disagree with you more on this. And I'd like to step away from Transformers for a second and discuss this with you. Especially if you intend to live in a world where your children will one day witness real life executions!

I was watching the Daily Show yesterday (Episode: 2011 06 30), and John Stewart brought up a segment about the lifting of restrictions of violent video games to minors. Aside from the rather silly and hilarious "Super Mario Boners" spoof, he used the latest Mortal Kombat game as an illustration of what is being made available for sale to young children.

The scene used was shocking even for a 28 year old man like myself that has seen a lot of gore over the years.

If you haven't played the game yourself, I'd suggest taking a look at the episode and coming to a thought out judgement about just what you'd like your potential children to have access to.

There is no universal standard on what is 'shocking'. It's no reason to keep children away from what you (as a parent) might deem so. I'm personally more inclined to explaining what's going on and what real or not.

Still, the childs age is always a factor. My daughter can't watch South Park, for instance. I could try to explain it, but she wouldn'understand yet. But in time, she will.

I sincerely doubt there would ever be a universal standard. I think some common sense is warranted though. Sly himself is young and I'd feel we'd be shirking some responsibilities if we let him go on thinking that dismembering ones enemies is an essential part of learning.

RhA wrote:There is no universal standard on what is 'shocking'. It's no reason to keep children away from what you (as a parent) might deem so. I'm personally more inclined to explaining what's going on and what real or not.

I'm all for this. Exposing your kids to whatever (within reason) as long as its put into context. While kids long to be entertained and to play, they also have the best capacity for learning and its good to talk these things through with them.

That said, does a child need to understand such harsh realities at such as young age?

The film is designed to entertain - that is to say, Bay isn't exactly trying to convey any kind of message here. Should we - or our kids - be entertained by such brutality?

I'm trying to think back when I was that young and I grew up with movies such as batman, water world, die hard and I knew at the time, they were just movies. There could be times and (certain individuals) that might need / warrent parental supervision or at least a "hey son, you know this isn't real right?" moments. Heck, kids play grand theft auto.

If the parents feel as though there kids couldn't handle it, or should perhaps go watch the movie first to see if it is ok for the kids.

I'd say the movie is perhaps geared a little more towards teens and up and the toys are more geared towards kids?

Tekka wrote:I sincerely doubt there would ever be a universal standard. I think some common sense is warranted though. Sly himself is young and I'd feel we'd be shirking some responsibilities if we let him go on thinking that dismembering ones enemies is an essential part of learning.

Let's hope it's not something we should be getting used to in the streets. Still scenes like those should be found shocking to an extent, otherwise, there'd be no point in using them. We would only be shrinking our responsibilities if we would ignore these scenes when our children are confronted with them.

But, as stated before, this movie is PG13. That means the general public deems this to be a movie for teens at least.

Fun fact- over here (in the Netherlands) intentionally confronting young children with pornographic material is officially child abuse. No word on violence, isn't that strange?

dirk2243 wrote:I'm trying to think back when I was that young and I grew up with movies such as batman, water world, die hard and I knew at the time, they were just movies. There could be times and (certain individuals) that might need / warrent parental supervision or at least a "hey son, you know this isn't real right?" moments. Heck, kids play grand theft auto.

If the parents feel as though there kids couldn't handle it, or should perhaps go watch the movie first to see if it is ok for the kids.

I'd say the movie is perhaps geared a little more towards teens and up and the toys are more geared towards kids?

Didn't the first Batman get a teen rating? Here it was a 15 (or 12), not sure about the States. The thing is, those three films are definitely not 'kids' films in the way Transformers (should) have been.

In my mind, giant alien robots, magical artefacts, etc, pangs of utter Sci Fi Fantasy. The operative word here is FANTASY. Fantasy makes up, at least in my understanding, most of a kids reality. They are creative, they engage in play, they like to pretend, etc etc. And there was a time where films were designed to make those fantasies as real as they were to the kids.

Every child who ever dreamed that their toys came alive would have gone nuts over Toy Story (I know I did) because they see their fantasy actually come into 'reality'.

Since that time though, I think movie makers have taken their ability to realise dreams for granted. Bay took a child's fantasy and turned it into something that does not feed that hunger that kids have to see it become real. He took giant alien robots - brilliantly fantastical - and made it gritty and nasty and brutal. While he made them real, I think he almost made them too real. No child fantasises about his toy robots savagely murdering each other.

Epic fight scenes are cool.

Brutal executions... I never played with my toys like that.

I still haven't seen the movie, so I sadly can't comment on the visuals. On reflection, I probably overreacted to his comment. I'll just get off my high horse and go sit in the corner.

RhA wrote:Fun fact- over here (in the Netherlands) intentionally confronting young children with pornographic material is officially child abuse. No word on violence, isn't that strange?

Yeah, it seems to be that way all across the world. Frankly I find it absolutely bizarre that sex trumps violence every time.

Scatterlung wrote:

dirk2243 wrote:I'm trying to think back when I was that young and I grew up with movies such as batman, water world, die hard and I knew at the time, they were just movies. There could be times and (certain individuals) that might need / warrent parental supervision or at least a "hey son, you know this isn't real right?" moments. Heck, kids play grand theft auto.

If the parents feel as though there kids couldn't handle it, or should perhaps go watch the movie first to see if it is ok for the kids.

I'd say the movie is perhaps geared a little more towards teens and up and the toys are more geared towards kids?

Didn't the first Batman get a teen rating? Here it was a 15 (or 12), not sure about the States. The thing is, those three films are definitely not 'kids' films in the way Transformers (should) have been.

In my mind, giant alien robots, magical artefacts, etc, pangs of utter Sci Fi Fantasy. The operative word here is FANTASY. Fantasy makes up, at least in my understanding, most of a kids reality. They are creative, they engage in play, they like to pretend, etc etc. And there was a time where films were designed to make those fantasies as real as they were to the kids.

Every child who ever dreamed that their toys came alive would have gone nuts over Toy Story (I know I did) because they see their fantasy actually come into 'reality'.

Since that time though, I think movie makers have taken their ability to realise dreams for granted. Bay took a child's fantasy and turned it into something that does not feed that hunger that kids have to see it become real. He took giant alien robots - brilliantly fantastical - and made it gritty and nasty and brutal. While he made them real, I think he almost made them too real. No child fantasises about his toy robots savagely murdering each other.

Epic fight scenes are cool.

Brutal executions... I never played with my toys like that.

I'm not saying it isn't a little over the top (kid wise), but they kind of knew what they were getting when asking Bay to do the movies. "Pearl Harbor and Bad boys series". This is kind of an opinion topic IMO. And my opinion is that I don't honestly view "THIS movie series" as a kids series. Yes, way different then 1985 G-1, but then again, so is the times.

sorry, double post

Is this a kids Franchise? Yes. Are the movie nessasarly targeted at kids? No. If that were the case, it would have had a PG or G rating. The movies target the general movie going audience.

Scatterlung wrote:Did I honestly miss a memo where Bay said he was targeting this at adults?

Kids are witnessing executions on screen. I don't know if things have just changed in kids media these days, but brutal executions as characters beg for their lives just isn't something I'd ever imagine seeing in something aimed at children.

Things certainly have changed within the last 20+yrs in kids enterainment, but to be fair, there's nothing in these movies that kids haven't seen in media already. Today's video games are twice as grafic, and it puts the weapon in the hands of the kids. not to meantion many of these games are real world enviorments. COD-Black ops, Doom, Grand Theft auto,..etc. All violent video games targeted at at kids just as much as the TF movies are.

On a side note, this is what really gets to me about the Fandom. We ask for a much darker, more mature story line, and were still complaining on just that...
Makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to take over this franchise.

5150 Cruiser wrote:On a side note, this is what really gets to me about the Fandom. We ask for a much darker, more mature story line, and were still complaining on just that...
Makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to take over this franchise.

Come on, now. Everyone has different ideas about what they want and what makes a good fiction experience. The people that dislike what's going on in the movies aren't necessarily the people that asked for or wanted it.

dirk2243 wrote:

Scatterlung wrote:

dirk2243 wrote:I'm trying to think back when I was that young and I grew up with movies such as batman, water world, die hard and I knew at the time, they were just movies. There could be times and (certain individuals) that might need / warrent parental supervision or at least a "hey son, you know this isn't real right?" moments. Heck, kids play grand theft auto.

If the parents feel as though there kids couldn't handle it, or should perhaps go watch the movie first to see if it is ok for the kids.

I'd say the movie is perhaps geared a little more towards teens and up and the toys are more geared towards kids?

Didn't the first Batman get a teen rating? Here it was a 15 (or 12), not sure about the States. The thing is, those three films are definitely not 'kids' films in the way Transformers (should) have been.

In my mind, giant alien robots, magical artefacts, etc, pangs of utter Sci Fi Fantasy. The operative word here is FANTASY. Fantasy makes up, at least in my understanding, most of a kids reality. They are creative, they engage in play, they like to pretend, etc etc. And there was a time where films were designed to make those fantasies as real as they were to the kids.

Every child who ever dreamed that their toys came alive would have gone nuts over Toy Story (I know I did) because they see their fantasy actually come into 'reality'.

Since that time though, I think movie makers have taken their ability to realise dreams for granted. Bay took a child's fantasy and turned it into something that does not feed that hunger that kids have to see it become real. He took giant alien robots - brilliantly fantastical - and made it gritty and nasty and brutal. While he made them real, I think he almost made them too real. No child fantasises about his toy robots savagely murdering each other.

Epic fight scenes are cool.

Brutal executions... I never played with my toys like that.

I'm not saying it isn't a little over the top (kid wise), but they kind of knew what they were getting when asking Bay to do the movies. "Pearl Harbor and Bad boys series". This is kind of an opinion topic IMO. And my opinion is that I don't honestly view "THIS movie series" as a kids series. Yes, way different then 1985 G-1, but then again, so is the times.

The only other Bay film I've actually seen is Armageddon. But that was so long ago it didn't really inform my judgement.

But I'm not comparing this to G1, at least I certainly don't intend to. I'm just wondering whether or not half of this stuff was necessary.

Scatterlung wrote: Didn't the first Batman get a teen rating? Here it was a 15 (or 12), not sure about the States. The thing is, those three films are definitely not 'kids' films in the way Transformers (should) have been.

I don't think thats fair. The Batman movies were marketed to kids just as much as the TF movies are. Both were once saturday morning cartoons, and still run to this day. While there was no "executions", having a sycotic vilina with serious mental problems isn't any better.

Scatterlung wrote:In my mind, giant alien robots, magical artefacts, etc, pangs of utter Sci Fi Fantasy. The operative word here is FANTASY. Fantasy makes up, at least in my understanding, most of a kids reality. They are creative, they engage in play, they like to pretend, etc etc. And there was a time where films were designed to make those fantasies as real as they were to the kids. .

The "Alien" movies were just as much sci-fi fantasy as TF, and those clearly are not meant for kids. But your right, the key word here is "Fantasy". This isn't real. Kids need to know that. And for the most part concidering the form of entertainment they have access to today, i'm sure there more than aware of that. If not, then partents need to do there job and step in a teach them fantasy from realitiy.

Tekka wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:On a side note, this is what really gets to me about the Fandom. We ask for a much darker, more mature story line, and were still complaining on just that...
Makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to take over this franchise.

Come on, now. Everyone has different ideas about what they want and what makes a good fiction experience. The people that dislike what's going on in the movies aren't necessarily the people that asked for or wanted it.

Thats a very fair point. I guess i was a little vague in my point. What i was getting at is no matter what is done, someone somewhere out there isn't going to be happy. I'm wondering if we'll truly find that happy medium. (though to be honest, i do believe we've come the closest with DOTM).

Scatterlung wrote:But I'm not comparing this to G1, at least I certainly don't intend to. I'm just wondering whether or not half of this stuff was necessary.

In all fairness, we asked for it. We wanted a more dark tones story, and thats what we got. Just like the saying goes... "Be carfull what you ask for..."

Actually I think it's cool that there's variety. I mean, you guys have the movies, and I have stuff like Animated. Which in my opinion is the single greatest piece of Transformers fiction ever conceived.

Tekka wrote:Actually I think it's cool that there's variety. I mean, you guys have the movies, and I have stuff like Animated. Which in my opinion is the single greatest piece of Transformers fiction ever conceived.

Oh, I think the variety is great. I'm a huge TF:Prime fan and IMO probably is the happy medieum. Its great, but not sure if its story line would fit the movies. But thats ok. Like you said, thats why we have a variety of TF material. Even looking farward to TF-Rescue Hero's. Great way to start off the litte ones.

The X-Men films managed to capture a darker tone without having to resort to some of the brutality that Bay has used.

As have a lot of cartoons.

The live action TF movies are clearly rated PG-13. PG-13 movies mean more violence,more curse words,more deaths,more sexual scenes,some brief nudity.

viewers know what to expect when they see these live action Transformers movies. thanks to the strict movie ratings each movie receives. like G,PG,PG-13,R. No movie viewers were blind sided here as the TF live action movies received the proper rating.

If parents bought their kids under a certain young age to see these live action TF movies that were clearly rated PG-13. Then this blame solely rest on the parents not hasbro,not micheal bay,not steven spielberg,not the movie association. PERSONALLY a responsible parent would have chosen 2 options. (1) first see the PG-13 with the wife & husband to make sure it's safe for the kids to go see. (2) a responaible parent would have done a few review searches on line to make sure the PG-13 movie was safe for their kids to go & see in theathres or on DVD/Whatever.

These live action TF movies are clearly NOT rated Pre-G. their not meant for extremly young kids. hence the PG-13 ratting on these films.