Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

william-james88 wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:
So in terms of a best transistion from original toy to its modern incarnation which is more 1986 Movie accurate, I'd say it's still MP-01. As the size did allow Takara engineers to do wonders even back in 2004.Not into the battery gimmick for the light up effect, but that got included, wrist coms and those hydraulic joints and grill on his shins. Pluse the energon ax can fit in a more streamline manner.

But the tech is no longer state of the art so MP-01, aside from the sheety paint chips and lack of neck and lack of Roller and Trailer which puts his cost prohibitively high really did aged well.

Did I fail to mention again that I do own MP-10 (another worthy succesor to the throne). So as not to accuse me of being biased against MP-10 for not owning one. Also own THS-02.

Maybe I misread, but do you mean that the gimmicks on MP-01 is what makes him superior to MP-10 ? I find both have their strengths. MP-10 has a better truck mode but I dislike how he has a visible head when you open his windows. He also has a better leg transformation but a hole in his crotch. The Pros and Cons seem to even out between the two.

Kind off. The size allowed more features. But it did temper off the cost. And of course, newer tech improvements. So, MP-01/MP-10 could have shared a tied position. Now if those gimmicks were included into MP-10 woohooooo!

Now that you mentioned it, If THS-02 was made Voyager with all the gimmicks and it's truck mode improved, I'd say it would have been the best Optimus version.

Rodimus Prime wrote:MP Grimlock
MP-01 Optimus Prime (robot mode)
MP Ultra Magnus
CW Superion (the individual bots are even better)
Generations Waspinator (I just LOVE this figure)

MP Grimlock
MP-01 Optimus Prime (robot mode)
MP Ultra Magnus
CW Superion (the individual bots are even better)
Generations Metroplex

william-james88 wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:well duh any of the masterpieces are great updates

You mean like MP 05, MP 02 and MP 03 ?! The masterpiece line has its hits and misses like any other line. It's not a perfect line impervious to scrutiny. I even believe that the Classics Seeker mold accomplishes a better seeker mold than the masterpiece version.

You forgot Rodimus. Excellent effort but hampered by weak materials/or supper strong materials (spring on ratchets) that the plastic could not handle the tension leading to busted shoulders and knees.

Still regretting not getting one. Wished Tomy will re-issue him "improved" again. And maybe paint his face this time?

Conversely to this discussion (dunno if it should have its own thread) here's my list of 5 g1 era bots that were excellent toys, whose cartoon models were close to, and basically the recent updates were good but they didn't bring anything spectacular to the plate because said toys were pretty good to begin with anyway.

1. G1 Soundwave. All he lacks is mass shifting. I don't have the mp version yet which I'd like to have but watching reviews online made me question how much of an improvement it is compared to say going from the g1 optimus prime to mp-1 or mp10.

2. G1 Grimlock. The original toy was magnificent and the cartoon model was close enough to the original toy. The mp version is great but it really does borrow a lot from the original design. Besides these two I own the FOC grimlock which I actually prefer. I have him with my generations and he fits in very well.

3. Brainstorm. I recently got the generations update. It was a great update in many ways but it also showed how off how good the original toy was for its time. Good articulation and fun transformation. I loved the headmaster gimmick as a kid (tho i prefer the japanese rationale behind it), and the update though an obvious improvement on the toy does have some shortcomings especially with the nebulan partner.

4. Perceptor. The original toy had some differences with the onscreen translation but it was a good rendition. The toy might not be very posable but it was good. The update isn't bad, the choice of alt vehicle made sense and the robot mode looked the part. However I found the transformation to be one of those deluxe generations that suffered from over fiddleness because of size.

5. Doubledealer. The original toy was large, chunky and had a giant missile that left me heartbroken when I found it missing (yay for ebay). To be fair, there was never an onscreen representation besides a tv ad (as far as i know) but the recent reuse of the blitzwing mode left me wishing they did a better job. I can live with a plane instead of the bird, but he really needs a giant ass missile and probably the red alert armada model would still be a better option. I agree with those who say that blitzwing would make a good flywheels (and perhaps springer a good battletrap?)

The H-Tank alt form just totally loses me with Warpath. I can't stand Hasbro's practice of considering H-Tanks a real alt mode; they feel like a total cheat and just don't look good to me. This Warpath has a great robot mode, but I was so frustrated with the alt mode that I finally sold this toy. Maybe one day we'll get a Warpath that transforms into a solid tank and is a better update of his G1 self.

frogbat wrote:Conversely to this discussion (dunno if it should have its own thread) here's my list of 5 g1 era bots that were excellent toys, whose cartoon models were close to, and basically the recent updates were good but they didn't bring anything spectacular to the plate because said toys were pretty good to begin with anyway.

Hey man, this is an AWESOME list! And it does fit in well with this topic by showing which updates would not be considered for this list.

I feel the insecticons would have also fit well with your list (if it were a top 10 or something) because they were actually quite close to their show models, were great toys in and of themselves, and I feel their updates aren't that much superior to the original toys.

william-james88 wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:well duh any of the masterpieces are great updates

You mean like MP 05, MP 02 and MP 03 ?! The masterpiece line has its hits and misses like any other line. It's not a perfect line impervious to scrutiny. I even believe that the Classics Seeker mold accomplishes a better seeker mold than the masterpiece version.

I don't agree with you on MP03 and MP05. These are great updates to the original toys - it was the first run and design of the toys (MP03 had a second design to address any of the original design's weaknesses).

I do agree that MP10 should be replacing MP01. MP01 is a terrible figure in its design - floppy legs and waist, panels that doesn't stay in place, weight of the lower metal legs putting stress on the knees (which causes a lot of copies to break at that point), etc. Maybe you can do a list to cover bad updates of G1 toys.

As much as that Kup robot mode looks great, I can't reconcile the alt mode. That would knock it off the chart for me. No one has mentioned the really nice job that the club has been doing with former action masters. The new Krok looks fantastic, and Jackpot was right on. What's a better redo than taking a non transforming transformer and giving it an alt mode?

Remakes of the Pretenders.
Duh.

Super Megatron wrote:I do agree that MP10 should be replacing MP01. MP01 is a terrible figure in its design - floppy legs and waist, panels that doesn't stay in place, weight of the lower metal legs putting stress on the knees (which causes a lot of copies to break at that point), etc. Maybe you can do a list to cover bad updates of G1 toys.

I think you may have had a bad copy of MP-01. I've had mine for 10 years, and does not have any of the issues you list.

william-james88 wrote:
Hey man, this is an AWESOME list! And it does fit in well with this topic by showing which updates would not be considered for this list.

I feel the insecticons would have also fit well with your list (if it were a top 10 or something) because they were actually quite close to their show models, were great toys in and of themselves, and I feel their updates aren't that much superior to the original toys.

Cheers! And I agree the insecticons were great but i do like what hasbro are doing with their legends figures. I hope to own the original and the updated set. So far I have one of each.

I remember each time I'd get a new toy after the initial wave of joy, I'd have a feeling of disappointment with many as they never fulfilled their potential. I remember being underwhelmed by wheeljack's robot mode and by thrust's legs not extending or why did he have such a tiny head... In fact I think I was most pleased with the micromasters because I didn't have any expectations attached to them from the cartoons. So I'm really glad at hasbro's attempts at bringing the characters to life in ways most of us probably hoped and imagined as kids. Right now I have superion and menasor battling it out in front of metroplex...

william-james88 wrote:

frogbat wrote:Conversely to this discussion (dunno if it should have its own thread) here's my list of 5 g1 era bots that were excellent toys, whose cartoon models were close to, and basically the recent updates were good but they didn't bring anything spectacular to the plate because said toys were pretty good to begin with anyway.

Hey man, this is an AWESOME list! And it does fit in well with this topic by showing which updates would not be considered for this list.

I feel the insecticons would have also fit well with your list (if it were a top 10 or something) because they were actually quite close to their show models, were great toys in and of themselves, and I feel their updates aren't that much superior to the original toys.

I love most of the Generations toys. I am usually pretty happy with them and don't mind slight changes. But one thing that made the G1 insecticons awesome was their color scheme. I don't usually desire chrome, but the toy insecticons looked unique and powerful with the chrome and their colors. One great component was their transparent yellow parts. They are incredible toys, they really only lack a little articulation. I don't need chrome on my Generations toys but the flat colors on the new insecticons really underwhelms me. I know that the cartoons weren't transparent, but FOC Kickback had colors that popped and looked great. Maybe they are waiting for the MP to knock them out of the park.

Super Megatron wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:well duh any of the masterpieces are great updates

You mean like MP 05, MP 02 and MP 03 ?! The masterpiece line has its hits and misses like any other line. It's not a perfect line impervious to scrutiny. I even believe that the Classics Seeker mold accomplishes a better seeker mold than the masterpiece version.

I don't agree with you on MP03 and MP05. These are great updates to the original toys - it was the first run and design of the toys (MP03 had a second design to address any of the original design's weaknesses).

I do agree that MP10 should be replacing MP01. MP01 is a terrible figure in its design - floppy legs and waist, panels that doesn't stay in place, weight of the lower metal legs putting stress on the knees (which causes a lot of copies to break at that point), etc. Maybe you can do a list to cover bad updates of G1 toys.

That's a great Idea for a list. Perceptor would be on it for sure (more when comparing to the original which is a great G1 toy). But tell me this, where would Ironhide and Ratchet lie? The Universe mold is not a good mold but their original toy was piss poor (not takara's fault, but definitely hasbro's for repurposing a faceless mech into an autonomous robot). So the update s very good considering that it's giving us a head for the figure but its not that good a toy. So would that still be a bad update?

I honestly enjoy reading these "Top 5's" every other week...

BUT I do have one gripe about lists involving "best" this or that...

I really dont think Masterpieces should count. I love my Masterpiece collection, and I totally groove to ones I dont have even....BUT Masterpiece TFs are SUPPOSED to be superior in quality, design and engineering so putting them on lists like this kinda doesnt leave room for NORMAL and ORDINARY releases.

That's just my two cents...If we keep having lists populated with Masterpieces, whats the point??

zatara1701 wrote:I honestly enjoy reading these "Top 5's" every other week...

BUT I do have one gripe about lists involving "best" this or that...

I really dont think Masterpieces should count. I love my Masterpiece collection, and I totally groove to ones I dont have even....BUT Masterpiece TFs are SUPPOSED to be superior in quality, design and engineering so putting them on lists like this kinda doesnt leave room for NORMAL and ORDINARY releases.

That's just my two cents...If we keep having lists populated with Masterpieces, whats the point??

Dont worry, they wont always be there, but I wont ignore them either. They are a line like any other. At a higher price and quality point, but that adds extra scrutiny, so it evens out. It is not impervious to failure and thus I will include it when necessary. Like I said, not including them in this list would not be fair to the figures that hold up against them, such as the ones found on this list. And its not like masterpiece toys are that much on another level. With the current generations offerings, the line keeps getting blurred, at both design and price point. Preordering the generations Ultra Magnus coming out on BBTS will be close to as expensive as the Datsuns were to preorder at HLJ.

But back to what I was saying, just think about it: if MPs are supposed to be superior to regular toys, what does that say about them not being 1st or 2nd place on this list, and most of us agreeing to that? By your logic, the MP line should be the only line on this list and yet it isn't, and I find that very fair and much more fair than denying any line an opportunity to reap it's success.

That aside, I am really glad you enjoy reading these lists and I hope you stick around.

Super Megatron wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:well duh any of the masterpieces are great updates

You mean like MP 05, MP 02 and MP 03 ?! The masterpiece line has its hits and misses like any other line. It's not a perfect line impervious to scrutiny. I even believe that the Classics Seeker mold accomplishes a better seeker mold than the masterpiece version.

I don't agree with you on MP03 and MP05. These are great updates to the original toys - it was the first run and design of the toys (MP03 had a second design to address any of the original design's weaknesses).

I do agree that MP10 should be replacing MP01. MP01 is a terrible figure in its design - floppy legs and waist, panels that doesn't stay in place, weight of the lower metal legs putting stress on the knees (which causes a lot of copies to break at that point), etc. Maybe you can do a list to cover bad updates of G1 toys.

Which version of MP-01 do you mean? Is it the Takara or Hasbro version?

Far to admit it is perfect, my MP-01 (1st run) issues are the freakin' paint chipping off/drying out. And Megatron figure stock extender breaking off after staring at it funny.

Energon ax also feeling quite sticky that you need to treat it with Armor All occasionally.

The floppy panels may come from subsequent re-issues to the mold. Must be degrading already.

Great top 5 list I really enjoyed it. I would've also put the Windcharger toy from a few years (not the new mold) ago on that list. It was a really good update of the character.

padfoo wrote:Great top 5 list I really enjoyed it. I would've also put the Windcharger toy from a few years (not the new mold) ago on that list. It was a really good update of the character.

Thanks, it means a lot! And yeah, that windcharger toy is awesome (it was from reveal the shield) but I have yet to own it. It got pretty darn expensive.

william-james88 wrote:

zatara1701 wrote:I honestly enjoy reading these "Top 5's" every other week...

BUT I do have one gripe about lists involving "best" this or that...

I really dont think Masterpieces should count. I love my Masterpiece collection, and I totally groove to ones I dont have even....BUT Masterpiece TFs are SUPPOSED to be superior in quality, design and engineering so putting them on lists like this kinda doesnt leave room for NORMAL and ORDINARY releases.

That's just my two cents...If we keep having lists populated with Masterpieces, whats the point??

Dont worry, they wont always be there, but I wont ignore them either. They are a line like any other. At a higher price and quality point, but that adds extra scrutiny, so it evens out. It is not impervious to failure and thus I will include it when necessary. Like I said, not including them in this list would not be fair to the figures that hold up against them, such as the ones found on this list. And its not like masterpiece toys are that much on another level. With the current generations offerings, the line keeps getting blurred, at both design and price point. Preordering the generations Ultra Magnus coming out on BBTS will be close to as expensive as the Datsuns were to preorder at HLJ.

Right, but here's my take on the matter: Sideswipe. The Universe Sideswipe/Sunstreaker mold is an AWESOME update to the G1 figures, (Although the G1q figs were much less lacking than the examples on this week's list) has proven highly versatile, and did it with minimal retooling. The vehicle modes look good, the robot modes look good, one can nitpick the thiness of the arms, and now 10 years later one of my Sideswipe arms is getting a bit loose, but that could be mine or age. but in a best update pole, They can't beat out the Masterpiece line lecause they are playing on two different levels.

Flashwave wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

zatara1701 wrote:I honestly enjoy reading these "Top 5's" every other week...

BUT I do have one gripe about lists involving "best" this or that...

I really dont think Masterpieces should count. I love my Masterpiece collection, and I totally groove to ones I dont have even....BUT Masterpiece TFs are SUPPOSED to be superior in quality, design and engineering so putting them on lists like this kinda doesnt leave room for NORMAL and ORDINARY releases.

That's just my two cents...If we keep having lists populated with Masterpieces, whats the point??

Dont worry, they wont always be there, but I wont ignore them either. They are a line like any other. At a higher price and quality point, but that adds extra scrutiny, so it evens out. It is not impervious to failure and thus I will include it when necessary. Like I said, not including them in this list would not be fair to the figures that hold up against them, such as the ones found on this list. And its not like masterpiece toys are that much on another level. With the current generations offerings, the line keeps getting blurred, at both design and price point. Preordering the generations Ultra Magnus coming out on BBTS will be close to as expensive as the Datsuns were to preorder at HLJ.

Right, but here's my take on the matter: Sideswipe. The Universe Sideswipe/Sunstreaker mold is an AWESOME update to the G1 figures, (Although the G1q figs were much less lacking than the examples on this week's list) has proven highly versatile, and did it with minimal retooling. The vehicle modes look good, the robot modes look good, one can nitpick the thiness of the arms, and now 10 years later one of my Sideswipe arms is getting a bit loose, but that could be mine or age. but in a best update pole, They can't beat out the Masterpiece line lecause they are playing on two different levels.

Fair points. As you mentioned, they wouldnt be on this main list (MP Lambor is an honorary mention though, hard to avoid) simply because their G1 toy is actually better than most. So I kinda dodged a bullet with that one. Then again, MP Lambor would be a better update on sideswipe but the Universe mold would be a better update on Sunstreaker. Or the MP mold could be the better update while the universe mold would be the more inventive mold. We could work with that and include both those achievements on separate lists seeking different things.

william-james88 wrote:

Optimum Supreme wrote:
I'd also replace MP10 with MP01 and put that one in first place.

You are the second person to suggest that. Care to explain why MP 01 is superior to MP 10. I thought it was agreed upon that MP 10 was the better figure, and thus a better update on the G1 toy.

Well, I don't have an MP10, so my comparison ability is limited to pics, but I just like the way MP01 looks much more. MP01 is if not my absolute favorite TF of all time certainly in the top two or three. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying MP10 isn't a great figure, I'm sure it is, but I'd take MP01 over it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. (Japanese MP01, btw, long stacks for the win).

Super Megatron wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:well duh any of the masterpieces are great updates

You mean like MP 05, MP 02 and MP 03 ?! The masterpiece line has its hits and misses like any other line. It's not a perfect line impervious to scrutiny. I even believe that the Classics Seeker mold accomplishes a better seeker mold than the masterpiece version.

I do agree that MP10 should be replacing MP01. MP01 is a terrible figure in its design - floppy legs and waist, panels that doesn't stay in place, weight of the lower metal legs putting stress on the knees (which causes a lot of copies to break at that point), etc. Maybe you can do a list to cover bad updates of G1 toys.

Desslok2201 wrote:I think you may have had a bad copy of MP-01. I've had mine for 10 years, and does not have any of the issues you list.

Then you're a lucky one. You see tons of these problems in many copies online (i.e. eBay). It's not so much a Q.C> issue, but a design issue (i.e the metal parts puts a lot of stress on the plastic in the lower joints). From a design perspective, MP01 is a very disappointing figure.

fenrir72 wrote:Which version of MP-01 do you mean? Is it the Takara or Hasbro version?

Far to admit it is perfect, my MP-01 (1st run) issues are the freakin' paint chipping off/drying out. And Megatron figure stock extender breaking off after staring at it funny.

Energon ax also feeling quite sticky that you need to treat it with Armor All occasionally.

The floppy panels may come from subsequent re-issues to the mold. Must be degrading already.

Either version. Again, it's a design issue that had its problems addressed (mostly) with MP10. I'm really hoping they won't waste more time and resources in designing YET ANOTHER Optimus Prime figure. Has/Tak should just let the dog die already.

william-james88 wrote:That's a great Idea for a list. Perceptor would be on it for sure (more when comparing to the original which is a great G1 toy). But tell me this, where would Ironhide and Ratchet lie? The Universe mold is not a good mold but their original toy was piss poor (not takara's fault, but definitely hasbro's for repurposing a faceless mech into an autonomous robot). So the update s very good considering that it's giving us a head for the figure but its not that good a toy. So would that still be a bad update?

Bad toy updates? I would say the first Deluxe Classic Optimus Prime and Classic Mirage would fall under this category (lazy transformation schema and poor aesthetics) more so than Universe Ironhide and Ratchet.

Toys that shows Takara/Hasbro trying new things should not belong to this category. Universe Ironhide and Ratchet, despite suffering similar design flaws as MP01, is the first attempt to make these characters similar to their cartoon counterparts, so they shouldn't fall under the poor updates category, but the "nice first try on updating the toy" group. Trying new things should never be punished - especially from a toy company that designs transforming toys. If that's the route that Hasbro and Takara takes (which thankfully they haven't yet), we would have nothing but Optimus Primes and Bumblebee toys.

That's like the Bayverse toyline in the last 5 years and, judging by the shelf and peg warmers during that time, I think most consumers would agree. If I want to collect bland toys, I would be into My Little Pony.

But I'm not.

chug seekers and Warpath are the best

LegendaryAntiHero wrote:chug seekers and Warpath are the best

Hell yeah!

With my main consideration being an update to its G1 incarnation, here is my list:

5) MP-11 Starscream. This is the seeker I always wanted as a child. Very articulated, show accurate robot, and a great looking jet mode.

4) Reveal the Shield Jazz. For goodness sake, he had speakers on his doors!

3) Generations Skids. If you own the original, no more need be said.

2).MP Ultra Magnus. A true, full transforming car carrier. Again, a toy I waited 30 years for.

1) MP Bumblebee. I just got this figure yesterday, but I've already fallen in love. Hardly bigger than the original G1 cars, this figure still packs 30 years of awesome into it, yet still stays simple enough to be an incredible amount of fun.