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There is nothing wrong with 'trashing' any particular line of toys or media - you get movie-verse fans that are just as vitriolic as any other sub-group of the Transfandom. You're allowed an opinion.

I believe, objectively - if you're looking for an updated G1 style (Classics-verse) Dinobot selection then its well within your right to call movie-themed figures 'trash'. They don't fit in - the entire aesthetic is entirely different which for the purposes of a classics styled collection makes them worthless to some.

The problem a lot of fans have with the Michael Bay movies is they don't show any real respect for the franchise that birthed them. Taking something aimed at children then adulterising them with purile humor and swearing is about the equivalent of getting Samuel L Jackson to play Batman, maskless and exclusively fighting crime with an AK-47. If children aren't allowed into the cinema (or indeed by certification even watch) the movies, then how are they being used to sell toys which, as always is Hasbro's main aim. The truth of that matter is years after DotM and a year after 4 - we're still seeing those toys clutter shelves whilst Combiner Wars - a toyline without a show or movie is selling strong. Barbie doesn't need a cinema movie to survive, nor does Monster High, Lego (despite getting one) or dozens of other toy ranges, including Transformers.

I may personally not like the movies, but I'm not going to disrespect someone for enjoying them and nor should I get disrespect back for stating my opinion.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:This attitude is why we have four crappy transformers movies from Bay. People settling for the cheap crap they do get, instead of holding out for quality product they could get.

And this attitude is what put the Transformers brand on the map. You bays haters just can't comprehend that the Bay movies basically SAVED the TF brand. I bet it was the same story back at the time of Beast Wars. Harddcore Geewunners kept whining about change and how the modern TFs looked nothing like the good old days. Meanwhile, the average person buy TFs aplenty, keeping the brand relevant. That way, Geewuners could get their Classics and Masterpeices.

Yet, Geewuners keep whining and whining and whining, never satisfied. There is nothing wrong about being a Geewuner (or Classiker). It's when you guys keep trashing the TF LIFELINE that piss me off.

The movie line and the cartoon line IS WHAT KEEP THE TF BRAND AFLOAT. Whithout them, no classics, no MPs, no G1 reissues. Why is it so hard to understand? So, have a bit more respect toward the other TF lines. You have all the right to not like them. But don't call them "trash". When you do, you are spitting on the very brand you love.

The bay movies did not save the line. Transformers was doing just fine at the time. In fact, the movies were only made because the line was strong.

Listen, I once got caught up in the movie mania too. In '05 and '06, I spent months on these threads defending the up coming movie and trying to be a voice of reason. I got so burnt out on it that I left the fandom for a few years. I didn't realize how thouroghly Bay had dumped on the franchise till the second movie.

You can like the movies and the toys, I get that, I really do. But don't tell me masquerading movie toys as classic, iconic characters is in any way a good thing. Its not.

Ironhidensh wrote:This attitude is why we have four crappy transformers movies from Bay. People settling for the cheap crap they do get, instead of holding out for quality product they could get.

So is it just the movie molds that you dont feel should be used for classic updates to character?
Would you be ok if they used molds from animated as they did for blackarachnia? Like the recent Swoop that came out in G1 deco?



And what about the FOC mold of grimlock redeco'd as G1 grimlock? thats also a redeco of a different style. Would that not count either?

I'd argue the Fall Of Cybertron designs were aesthetically a lot closer to classics\generations stylings than Animated, RID or Movie. Putting FOC Grimlock next to Defensor, Combiner Wars Megatron or Optimus is a lot less jarring than the movie Dinobots or animated figures for example.

Ironhidensh wrote:The bay movies did not save the line. Transformers was doing just fine at the time. In fact, the movies were only made because the line was strong.

Strong is a relative term. Looking at where the brand is now compared to where it was in 2007, I would say this statement of yours is qualitatively false, or, at the very least, questionable.

In 2007, you had Spider-Man 3, Fantastic Four 2, and Ghost Rider. Super-Hero movies were continuing to ramp up, and studios were trying to figure out what other properties and aspects of nerd culture could be appropriated for mainstream consumption. Enter: Transformers, the live action movie. The studio and Hasbro saw opportunities and planned to capitalize on cross-promotion, but I highly doubt the Transformers property was chosen because the toy line was objectively 'strong'.

Sure, the TF Bay movies ARE bad. Except the first. However, they DID refresh the TF line and gave us incredible toy engeneering.

Still, I presonally find those G1 heads on the Bay bodies to be very bizzare. It does NOT fit at all. I would MUCH prefer the SDCC version. Because those dinos theme were the Knights. And with these head, not only the theme is lost, but they do look out of place.

Also, a shame the other FOC dinos never say any toys made.

william-james88 wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:This attitude is why we have four crappy transformers movies from Bay. People settling for the cheap crap they do get, instead of holding out for quality product they could get.

So is it just the movie molds that you dont feel should be used for classic updates to character?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie designs are such a radical departure from everything else, they only work as their own thing. There are a few good, and even a couple of great movie toys, but even they don't work as anything else.

Ironhidensh wrote:The movie designs are such a radical departure from everything else, they only work as their own thing. There are a few good, and even a couple of great movie toys, but even they don't work as anything else.

To me it seems that we have the reverse philosophy when it comes to the movie based characters. Transformers G1 was about robots that turned into cars wheras the movie line is more cars that turn into robots.

Ironhidensh wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:This attitude is why we have four crappy transformers movies from Bay. People settling for the cheap crap they do get, instead of holding out for quality product they could get.

So is it just the movie molds that you dont feel should be used for classic updates to character?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie designs are such a radical departure from everything else, they only work as their own thing. There are a few good, and even a couple of great movie toys, but even they don't work as anything else.

It depend of the movie mold, really. Some, like voyager Banzaitron and Seaspray already work well as classic characters. Other mold can work very well as classics too. Best example is voyager 2007 Movie Ratchet. Just change the hands and head, and we have a solid classic mold. I may do the custom myself eventually.

megatronus wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:The bay movies did not save the line. Transformers was doing just fine at the time. In fact, the movies were only made because the line was strong.

Strong is a relative term. Looking at where the brand is now compared to where it was in 2007, I would say this statement of yours is qualitatively false, or, at the very least, questionable.

Yup, it's qualitatively false as this graph demonstrates:



And to add to what some people are saying, there was another time when the brand was about to die, the early 90s. Hasbro reinvented the whole line with a totally new style that older fans instantly rejected, Beast Wars. However, that gamble totally worked for Hasbro and the brand survived with a bunch of new fans, myself included. People hating on the movies and what it brings to the brand is no different than the whole Trukk not Munkee thing. Regardless of the story quality of the movies, they propelled the brand to new heights of conceivable popularity giving Hasbro the leeway to do things that would never fly before. Like puttimg their efforts a toy line not linked to show or film, more widely distributed g1 reissues (including toys that were never ever reissued before), having a whole year of combiners and a yearly release of titan class figures.

Transformers Movie likely exist as it's riding the coat tails of the earlier wave of "Comic Book Movie" - Transformers often gets lumped in with those.

I'm not going to dispute the value of Movie toys - I get a little depressed when I see people seduced by the gloss of the new.

Selling of Classics or Movie toys as they are no longer the next big thing so are something to ditch is a little saddening.

I would say I would be plenty happy to see part of the Movie 5's Toyline be the earlier iterations that were done poorly we really could do with some better Movie Megatron toys.

I'm OK with getting all kinds of Transformers it keeps things Interesting if you stick to G1 homages you soon find your scrapping the bottom of the barrel or re-treading old ground.

The only thing I really dislike is when one segment of a brand acts as a break on another segment getting a much needed Character, or they makes something to big just because it fits their sales pattern.

I'm over all feeling pretty poor towards the lack of quality in Leader Class toys, to many holes in them and to large and to expensive I feel - Leader Starscream is just to big to be useful.

If they'd been Ultras they'd have fitted in much better for me.

-----------

P.s.

Regarding that graph - please be aware that the increase in "Other" types of Transformers Merchandise like Videogames and T-shirts has skewed that graph high, a more useful graph would be one that shows toys sales alone.

They did say at their share holder conference though that the numbers are good on Merchandise and not as good as they hoped on AGE of Extinction - that underperformed.

I hope that they realise that wasn't due to a lack of inteest in the brand but due to the perfect storm provided by a combinations of

Increased prices
Decreased product quality
Poor distribution.

Distribution issues is also one of the main reason Transformers Prime under performed too - that and the show was less visible stuck on The Hub.

This can be partially demonstrated by the relative sales of Transformers Animated in places the cartoon was visible it sold well - in places it wasn't it didn't. though some places like Australia just reacted poorly to the show even when they did see it.

william-james88 wrote:

megatronus wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:The bay movies did not save the line. Transformers was doing just fine at the time. In fact, the movies were only made because the line was strong.

Strong is a relative term. Looking at where the brand is now compared to where it was in 2007, I would say this statement of yours is qualitatively false, or, at the very least, questionable.

Yup, it's qualitatively false as this graph demonstrates:



And to add to what some people are saying, there was another time when the brand was about to die, the early 90s. Hasbro reinvented the whole line with a totally new style that older fans instantly rejected, Beast Wars. However, that gamble totally worked for Hasbro and the brand survived with a bunch of new fans, myself included. People hating on the movies and what it brings to the brand is no different than the whole Trukk not Munkee thing. Regardless of the story quality of the movies, they propelled the brand to new heights of conceivable popularity giving Hasbro the leeway to do things that would never fly before. Like puttimg their efforts a toy line not linked to show or film, more widely distributed g1 reissues (including toys that were never ever reissued before), having a whole year of combiners and a yearly release of titan class figures.

I never said things don't sell better after the movies. The young man said that the Bay movies saved the brand. I'm saying it didn't. It wasn't in danger of death. For its t8me, it was strong. That is why Transformers was made before GI Joe, which they really screwed up on by not honoring what came before.

Ironhidensh wrote:

william-james88 wrote:[

So is it just the movie molds that you dont feel should be used for classic updates to character?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie designs are such a radical departure from everything else, they only work as their own thing. There are a few good, and even a couple of great movie toys, but even they don't work as anything else.

Fair enough, thanks for responding

Amelie wrote:
To me it seems that we have the reverse philosophy when it comes to the movie based characters. Transformers G1 was about robots that turned into cars whereas the movie line is more cars that turn into robots.

I have a third opinion and feel both toylines feel like cars turning into robots. The initial G1 toys are all about the alt mode and the movie toys go all the way with their licensing agreements and give us the most realistic trucks, cars and planes yet at the detriment of a bunch of panels in robot mode. There are of course gems hidden within all the lines of course. In the end, I like nice toys and dont really care where they come from. I love G1 Perceptor as much as I love Evasion mode Optimus Prime And I love G1 Predaking as much as I love movie Leader Starscream

Ironhidensh wrote:I never said things don't sell better after the movies. The young man said that the Bay movies saved the brand. I'm saying it didn't. It wasn't in danger of death. For its t8me, it was strong. That is why Transformers was made before GI Joe, which they really screwed up on by not honoring what came before.

I see, thanks for clarifying. However, I do believe that we are only getting all the good stuff now (of course, that depends on whether or not you like some of the recent toys) because of the attention the brand is getting and the new fans it has gotten. But then again, my favourite toylines are Animated and Cybertron and they had nothing to do with the films. Prime did though and I love that line too.

RAR wrote:
Regarding that graph - please be aware that the increase in "Other" types of Transformers Merchandise like Videogames and T-shirts has skewed that graph high, a more useful graph would be one that shows toys sales alone.

They did say at their share holder conference though that the numbers are good on Merchandise and not as good as they hoped on AGE of Extinction - that underperformed.

I hope that they realise that wasn't due to a lack of inteest in the brand but due to the perfect storm provided by a combinations of

Increased prices
Decreased product quality
Poor distribution.

Distribution issues is also one of the main reason Transformers Prime under performed too - that and the show was less visible stuck on The Hub.

This can be partially demonstrated by the relative sales of Transformers Animated in places the cartoon was visible it sold well - in places it wasn't it didn't. though some places like Australia just reacted poorly to the show even when they did see it.

But the revenue from T-shirts and schoolbags and merchandise of the sort doesnt go to hasbro, it goes to those individual companies. Hasbro just collects the licensing fees. They get 100% revenue from the sale of transformers though since it is their product. Also, if the merchandise is assumed to be based upon the popularity of the brand, then the added revenue as a percentage is simply ceterus paribus, which means that it is still proportional to the sale of toys (since both are determined by brand awareness). So while the higher revenues are also contributed by the increased licensing, there is still a proportional bulk coming from the sale of toys, as was the case before (when you had mugs and t-shirts of G1 characters instead of movie ones).

For what my opinion is worth, I only started collecting because of the 07 movie, yes I was a fan before but it was a childhood thing. I appreciate the change in styles the movies went for and to some aspects, I agree with what happened. I mean they were probably given a hard task (this being the designers), having to make designs that could translate well into toys, invoke other elements of the franchise , do the designs to attract the attention of non fans (for a movie to reach the big profit margins it has to go beyond initial fans) and prephaps most importantly, be prepared to work with bay. Opinions can be expressed about how well the task was done and people will always believe a different course should be taken. I would be worried if all 100% of humanity agreed on something.

As for the movies themselves, like them or not, they made their money, so people liked them and I would guess that they were the gateway for many new fans into the franchise.

So, for krana's original point, he's just taking offence with the idea of going to far with hating a branch of the transformers family tree when it's helped us get to where we are now. Like it or not, that's a fact. No one is asking you to love them, more begrudgingly accept they helped and move on.

As for the original issue on looking out of place on a shelf of other ascetics then yeah, especially if they were up front and centre. You may get around it by having them behind other figures, then their colour schemes may blend better.

Me too, I came back into Transformers because of the 2007 movie. I was a fan as a child in the 1980'S but I have moved on to video games for a long time. Finally, I went hardcore into Transformers at the HFTD line. Still because of the Bay movies. Yeah, Bay haters, like it or not, the Transformers franchise would not be as huge as it is today without the movies.

What a lovely reply Zero Wolf

Back to what constitutes classic or not, there is a precedent for Hasbro using movie molds. Classics Deepdive, Mindset and Fallback from the Reveal the Shield line (which was the classics line between universe and Generations) were made up of movie molds. So do you guys not count them? Are they not part of your classics shelf?


Transformers Reveal The Shield Turbo Tracks Gallery


Transformers Reveal The Shield Deep Dive Gallery

Also, I had asked in another list about RTS Lugnut who is pictured above. Every fan puts him in a classics shelf and yet he has so much more in common with ROTF Lockdown since they are both more realistic (non cartoon) versions of their animated selves. So, is he a classics toy and Lockdown isnt simply because of the label on their boxes? And is Lugnut a movie design or not? Is Lockdown? See how well all these fit as a classics collection reinterpreting the animated series:




And back to the Dinobots, the reason I dont mind some as my classics Dinobots for now is because I would have accepted them as classics if they were released under that line. Of course these are movie toys because we saw some in the movie (not snarl or sludge though), but why is it that their designs look more movie-esque than what Hasbro would have given us in a classics line? Because this was (and still is) the classics interpretation of Grimlock:


Transformers Classics Grimlock Gallery


Transformers Classics Grimlock Gallery

I just dont get why that is any better an update for Grimlock than this is for Slag:



or Sludge:



I am not saying these are definitive, I am saying these are as definitive as Classics Grimlock (or Classics Astrotain, Generations Doubledealer, or any other classics toy that isn't too reliant on G1) and do an even better job than him on a shelf to represent the Dinobots.

Believe it or not, I'm happy they work for you, but all I can see is stuff from a movie I've come to loathe.

Ironhidensh wrote:Believe it or not, I'm happy they work for you, but all I can see is stuff from a movie I've come to loathe.

I believe it, I have found our discussion quite amicable And you hit the nail on the head. There is more at play with these molds than if they are good or not, there is the whole idea of where they come from too, and that can totally change one's opinion, and rightfully so.

Know what? I know his debut wasn't that long ago - five years though, gosh, it's been that long... - but Knock Out. His TFP Deluxe just does not do him justice at all; ignoring the issues with the colouring the shapes and proportions and positioning of body parts in Robot Mode is just all off. The legs kind of work but it all falls down at the body.

Airachnid's another TFP 'con who most certainly deserves another go. I was mostly saying Knock Out because he's a favourite character of mine but... my gosh, at least you could make a case for him being a decent toy. I can't think of a universe where anyone would defend Airachnid's deluxe.

ZeroWolf wrote:For what my opinion is worth,

T-shirts are not a proportion of Current toy sales they are a reflection of the brand recognition accrued over 30 years (especially G1 related Merchandise).

For Movies it would be the brand recognition gained over 10 years. and for RID-15-to-17 it would likely be fair to say that the broader merchandise sales are related to the popularity of the toyline - but also to the cartoon.

But G One merchandise has a broader footprint than say RID does (as a current line) they can sell something like the 1986 Movie poster T-shirt for years to come. where as it might take a bit longer for someone to walk around with a ROTF T-Shirt and not considered to be someone 'being ironic'.

But anyway my point I was making a couple of years ago was that is if you look back into the mists of time it was around about the time of ARMADA that Hasbro started a big merchandising push to coincide with the then current cartoon bu over time that has evolved into more of a general TRANSFORMERS licensing campaign focus that includes Generation One related stuff, Movie related stuff and items related to the current line.

Another important Data point in the history I would consider would be Takara solidifying the concept and idea for marketing purposes of "Transformers : Generation One" as a distinct (retrospective) idea to try to sell to people.

But notice you might have a hard job finding a Titans Returns T shirt at all or an Adult size Rescue Bots one. so they are concentrating one what they think they can sell best and that isn't always "Current Brand".

Or to put it another way IDW T-Shirts are not especially common as the vast majority of the public don't even know that Transformers Comics still exist and even if they did they'd not recognise the IDW versions. even if one could argue and probably convincingly that such T-shirts are just the thing that would be idea for Comicons.

But I expect if you wandered into Hot Topic you'd find Movie shirts and G1 shirts and not much else besides.

I recall the bemusement some people had trying to find kids sizes or adult sizes of various Franchise T-shirts at various times - Thundercats in particular was know for flip flopping between what sizes they were making - also these days a lot of the iconic 1980's properties (especially those with logos) are also being sold in woman's sizes and previously that was not the case anywhere near as much - if at all - so that is also an expansion in the market. as well as the likes of statues, and the stuff similar to Funko Pops.

I think they are missing a trick by not having a Magic the Gathering style card game for Transformers - considering the sheer volume of Characters in the franchise it seems pretty suitable to the idea.


I suppose one of the greatest ironies is that at a time Generation One is a strong influence on the main brand (Generations) and marketing of the brand in general for licensees is heavily focused in that direction too - you can't hardly ever get actual G1 toy reissues and only very infrequent masterpiece toys (and they seem keen on Beast Wars ones lately anyway).

But I can't think of any other franchise with quite so much of a 3rd party scene to it as Transformers has. and that is in part drawing heavily off the G1 idea too.

Thankfully, this list is now quite outdated, with us getting Ovelord, Skylynx and Blackarachnia.

So now I am thinking of making a new list called: Characters who still need good toys

So it would combine many lists like comic only characters who dont have toys yet, characters who never got a decent update and who original toy is very lackluster and characters who neer got a decently scaled toy.

Off the top of my head looking at what we havent gotten I would say the following need a decent toy the most:

Prime Airachnid
BW Terrorsaur
BM Silverbolt
RID Underbite/Clampdown (dont know which is more important)
Transmetal Megatron
Rodimus Prime
Pharma
Tarn
Elita One
Sludge and the other dinobots (but Sludge the most)

We got a Blackaracnia?

Fun memories. This thread was one of our first discussion.

I'd personally cross out Pharma. He's a great character and he needs a toy for sure; but he's a bit B-list and certainly not one of the priorities when it comes to MTMTE characters. It's a bit like before Combiner Wars picking Abominus out of all the combiners as a priority; he's awesome, and we do want him, but there are other much more important Combiners that deserve an update first like Superion.
I'd instead put Rung there myself, given he's the longest member of the crew who has absolutely no toy at all (there are others like Ten and Velocity but they joined much later while he was there from Issue #1).
Heck, much as MTMTE/LL is my life; I think it's also important to note IDW-exclusive characters from the other ongoings who don't have toys yet, like Aileron.

Is the original Transmetal Megatron not good? I know the American version had a severe case of GPS but wasn't the Takara version free from that problem? Or are there other flaws with the toy because GPS aside it seems pretty cool.

Why Sludge in particular? Is his G1 toy awful compared to the rest of the Dinobots or something?

Animated Omega Supreme would be something I'd note. Not that I think we'll ever get him, but he played a very big and important role on the show so it's strange he never got a toy.

I'd be willing to put Tarn at the top of the list. He was, despite very little page time, the biggest of decepticon boogey men for a bit.

Sure, we have this guy:




But he isn't official, and that matters to some. Personally, I hope Hastak doesn't take on this badboy, as they would most likely just make him a repaint, but you never know.