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Soundwave... his recent TR release looks ok but is just a blaster repaint... the original g1 with his weapons storing as batteries was awesome

Grimlock.. don't have classics version but I do have the Mp and WFC updates and well the original toy still somehow manages to eclipse them for me at least.


Re sky lynx... really love the update, he looks the part in spite of not having all of the original's play modes.

Couldn't agree with this list more, especially #1. G1 Fort Max is just a thing of beauty, and the new toy completely fails to live up to the legacy.

However, there is one example of "original toy better than update" you missed- Titanium Soundwave vs G1 Soundwave. Sure, the Titanium line is easy pickings in general, but Soundwave really takes the cake- most of the others at least LOOK good, but Soundwave looks like he's wearing a nappy, has really, really weird torso proportions, collapses into MidgetWave thanks to his telescoping legs, and generally sucks all round. Meanwhile the original toy is one of the best of G1 with surprisingly good articulation, a cool gimmick and a really cool look.

kurthy wrote:And Kurona, would you say that CW Sky Lynx is a better toy for the character than the original in any way, shape, or form?

But that's not the point - the point is that this Sky Lynx figure is doing something different, and that's where I find issue. Were it's purpose to simply be an update of Sky Lynx... it would be inferior. It's smaller, it can't split apart and admittedly it is hollow in sections. But that's not all there is to the toy - it can combine, a feature the original toy didn't have and hence it's clearly going for a different purpose. So it's not about whether it's a better toy than the original to me. Is CW Prowl a better toy for the character than the original in any way, shape or form? He doesn't have any of Prowl's typical visual iconography - the car hood chest, the door wings, the shoulder missiles - and it's all sacrificed so he can combine. The same can be said about Ironhide or Rodimus or Wheeljack. All of these are not good representations of the character on their own, but I repeat, that is not the point at all. The point is they sacrifice what they would 100% have had were they actual updates in order to be a cool somewhat-decent representation of the character that can also combine. That is the entire point, and the same applies to Sky Lynx - if you're looking for a good update and representation in a CW toy (aside from those originally in a combiner team), then right from the outset you're doing it wrong. Look at what the toy set out to do rather than what people wanted and are impatient for and you find we've got a friggin' great toy at the end of the day.
Again, to me the only debate - and the only reason why people complain about him - is about whether he should have gotten a 'true' update before one that can combine, because his CW toy clearly isn't supposed to be an actual update so judging him by those standards just isn't a fair evaluation of the figure. And once again... I don't think the matter of not having a 'true' update beforehand should be an issue. I understand that point of view but at the end of the day it simply comes from impatience and hinders creativity and the chance to do something unique in a line that really, really needed something unique and creative at the end.
If you're annoyed with CW Sky Lynx for not being an update of the original, that's not an actual criticism of the toy. That's just a criticism with Hasbro's decision to not update him before making a version that can combine.

Er, no.

The classics Cheetor mold is universally hated and is most certainly NOT better than the original. Considering the masterpiece version is almost out, this was a poor choice for inclusion.

CW Skylinx also not correct. Apart from the fact that it no longer separates into his four different alt modes, the rear legs are too floppy to properly support the beast mode, while the gestalt mode's (shoulders?) are also a floppy mess.

Did the writer of this article ever see the reviews for these two toys, or even bother to read most of the opinions at this site or other sites?

Not the best article. Please improve it.

Kurona wrote:(...)
If you're annoyed with CW Sky Lynx for not being an update of the original, that's not an actual criticism of the toy. That's just a criticism with Hasbro's decision to not update him before making a version that can combine.

I defenitely agree. The CW and the G1 original Skylinx can't be compared because they are doing things DIFFERENTLY. For Skylinx, maybe they'll make a leader class toy down the line, made of the original 2 components. With the mechanical walking gimmick removed of course. They have just made a pretty decent 6shot so a Leader Skylinx is not impossible.

primalxconvoy wrote:Er, no.

The classics Cheetor mold is universally hated and is most certainly NOT better than the original. Considering the masterpiece version is almost out, this was a poor choice for inclusion.

CW Skylinx also not correct. Apart from the fact that it no longer separates into his four different alt modes, the rear legs are too floppy to properly support the beast mode, while the gestalt mode's (shoulders?) are also a floppy mess.

Did the writer of this article ever see the reviews for these two toys, or even bother to read most of the opinions at this site or other sites?

Not the best article. Please improve it.

Man, are you a funny little confused one!

Please read the title of the article and the WHOLE article again. There's a little detail you have missed.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:Er, no.

The classics Cheetor mold is universally hated and is most certainly NOT better than the original. Considering the masterpiece version is almost out, this was a poor choice for inclusion.

CW Skylinx also not correct. Apart from the fact that it no longer separates into his four different alt modes, the rear legs are too floppy to properly support the beast mode, while the gestalt mode's (shoulders?) are also a floppy mess.

Did the writer of this article ever see the reviews for these two toys, or even bother to read most of the opinions at this site or other sites?

Not the best article. Please improve it.

Man, are you a funny little confused one!

Please read the title of the article and the WHOLE article again. There's a little detail you have missed.

Ahh...

primalxconvoy wrote:Er, no.

The classics Cheetor mold is universally hated and is most certainly NOT better than the original. Considering the masterpiece version is almost out, this was a poor choice for inclusion.

CW Skylinx also not correct. Apart from the fact that it no longer separates into his four different alt modes, the rear legs are too floppy to properly support the beast mode, while the gestalt mode's (shoulders?) are also a floppy mess.

Did the writer of this article ever see the reviews for these two toys, or even bother to read most of the opinions at this site or other sites?

Not the best article. Please improve it.

The point of this article is how the original toys are better. So we share the same opinions. Just reread the article and it should make sense.

I agree with most of this list but... am I the only fan who actually liked MP-5?

Look, I get it, he's got spindly legs. His fusion canon is too heavy for his arm. Fine.

But I actually kinda enjoy his transformation, his gun mode is absolutely glorious, and if you think he doesn't look better in robot mode than Trigger Crotch, you're nuts.

TheForgottenTaxi wrote:I agree with most of this list but... am I the only fan who actually liked MP-5?

Look, I get it, he's got spindly legs. His fusion canon is too heavy for his arm. Fine.

But I actually kinda enjoy his transformation, his gun mode is absolutely glorious, and if you think he doesn't look better in robot mode than Trigger Crotch, you're nuts.

TheForgottenTaxi wrote:But I actually kinda enjoy his transformation, his gun mode is absolutely glorious, and if you think he doesn't look better in robot mode than Trigger Crotch, you're nuts.

Ha! He looks better, for sure, but he's still not even close to being accurate to anything.

And Kurona, I get what you mean about Skylynx, but the generations line is specifically about updating classic characters for better or worse. This was their big unveiling for skylynx, finally, and they knew that. And they chose to reintroduce him as a standard torso rather than the unique toy he should be. Prowl and company already had classics toys and even then they are all perfectly fine when compared to their originals. Nothing was taken away from them. Ironhide finally has a head All CW skylynx gives us is another Torso to play with but it doesnt give us a Classics skylynx for our classics collection, where we are still better off using the G1 toy for that representation. That is my main point.

Also, question for Emerje, is the BM Tank Drone a better toy than Gen Tankor?

And Burn, its not about the name, but who the toy is representing. BM Tankor representds the General from Beast Machines, right? Isnt that who Gen Tankor represents as well? His puny size does make him look instead like an update to the tank drone, but he is supposed to be our general, and that doesnt work, does it? Jut trying to express my point as clearly as possible.

Black Hat wrote:However, there is one example of "original toy better than update" you missed- Titanium Soundwave vs G1 Soundwave. Sure, the Titanium line is easy pickings in general, but Soundwave really takes the cake- most of the others at least LOOK good, but Soundwave looks like he's wearing a nappy, has really, really weird torso proportions, collapses into MidgetWave thanks to his telescoping legs, and generally sucks all round. Meanwhile the original toy is one of the best of G1 with surprisingly good articulation, a cool gimmick and a really cool look.

Black Hat, we should write lists together, you have a great input everytime. I did indeed have a titanium on the list at first, it was Optimal Optimus. From a nice big toy, we get a small one with lame articulation and the lack of a Beast Mode (on a freaken Beast Wars character!). But then I saw that it didnt gel with the rest of the list. It didnt feel like Hasbro trying to update anything, just present characters in a different way. Kinda like World's Smallest TFs. They came after the G1 toys, but arent trying to better them, just present them differently. Thats how I feel about the Titanium line. Because or else, this whole list would be that line right? Like Fire Convoy and Optimal Optimus who are missing modes and Soundwave, which as you mentioned, doesnt hold a candle to the original. Even though they are legitimate updates, they dont feel to have the same intentions as the other ones on the list. At least to me.

Ones I realize I did miss out on would be G1 Double Dealer. I totally forgot about his Gen update, because of how forgetable it was. It wasnt bad, but it felt more opportunistic than anything and easy to ignore. An interesting one I just thought of now is G1 ravage and TR Ravage. There are better ravages out there than G1 ravage, but the TR is not one of them. Still, I dont know if it has the same impact when there are so many other good ravages out there, which came before.

frogbat wrote:Grimlock.. don't have classics version but I do have the Mp and WFC updates and well the original toy still somehow manages to eclipse them for me at least.

That is one hell of a bold statement, I love it!

william-james88 wrote:

Black Hat wrote:However, there is one example of "original toy better than update" you missed- Titanium Soundwave vs G1 Soundwave. Sure, the Titanium line is easy pickings in general, but Soundwave really takes the cake- most of the others at least LOOK good, but Soundwave looks like he's wearing a nappy, has really, really weird torso proportions, collapses into MidgetWave thanks to his telescoping legs, and generally sucks all round. Meanwhile the original toy is one of the best of G1 with surprisingly good articulation, a cool gimmick and a really cool look.

Black Hat, we should write lists together, you have a great input everytime. I did indeed have a titanium on the list at first, it was Optimal Optimus. From a nice big toy, we get a small one with lame articulation and the lack of a Beast Mode (on a freaken Beast Wars character!). But then I saw that it didnt gel with the rest of the list. It didnt feel like Hasbro trying to update anything, just present characters in a different way. Kinda like World's Smallest TFs. They came after the G1 toys, but arent trying to better them, just present them differently. Thats how I feel about the Titanium line. Because or else, this whole list would be that line right? Like Fire Convoy and Optimal Optimus who are missing modes and Soundwave, which as you mentioned, doesnt hold a candle to the original. Even though they are legitimate updates, they dont feel to have the same intentions as the other ones on the list. At least to me.

Ones I realize I did miss out on would be G1 Double Dealer. I totally forgot about his Gen update, because of how forgetable it was. It wasnt bad, but it felt more opportunistic than anything and easy to ignore. An interesting one I just thought of now is G1 ravage and TR Ravage. There are better ravages out there than G1 ravage, but the TR is not one of them. Still, I dont know if it has the same impact when there are so many other good ravages out there, which came before.

Thank you very much! I'd love to contribute to these lists, even if my actual TF knowledge isn't that broad.

Anyway, I see what you mean about discounting the Titanium line- I just felt that Soundwave was a particularly foul offender. Whereas Fire Convoy and Optimal Optimus were based on already superb (perfect even) toys- very large, fairly complex ones at that- Soundwave's G1 self, whilst amazing for the time, is nonetheless quite dated, and very simple- he just turns into a rectangle. And whilst most of the other Titanium designs were radically different from their G1 selves, and actually looked pretty good (I do wish that Seeker design would get a proper updated figure) Titanium Soundwave was more or less the G1 toy but with added techno detail, and could have quite easily fitted in with a CHUG shelf had he not been so unspeakably crap. His tape player mode isn't so bad- it's recognizably Soundwave, even if it is a bit funky. It's that robot mode where everything goes horrendously wrong.

So whilst the "Not a direct update" clause does apply, I think the fact that he's the most G1 of the Titanium range, and fairly close to a direct update (albeit a sucky one) combined with the fact that all the engineers had to do was make a robot that turned into a rectangle rather than reproduce a large and rather involved (for the time) toy, earns him a space above all the others as a true failure of an update. There are other Titaniums that are worse (notably "G.I. Joe" Megatron) but none that are worse direct updates, mainly because he's the only direct update.

I'll agree with you that Doubledealer kinda sucks, though I'll admit I'm not a big fan of Doubledealer to begin with. Robot mode and missile truck mode are awesome, bird mode...not so much. As for how they managed to screw the pooch (cat?) with TR Ravage so badly, I have no idea.

This makes me think, a potentially good list could be "Top 5 Soundwave toys". Obviously the MP would be on there, but what others do you think should make it? I'm thinking the Cybertron toy (for being a legitimately awesome design in its own right whilst remaining instantly recognizable as Soundwave), Animated Soundwave (for the cool "beat box" car mode and GUITAR LASERBEAK) and Prime Soundwave (for being such a radical reinterpretation on Soundwave as a character, being a fun, deloightfully expressive and creepy toy, and looking an awful lot like Soundwave made sweet love to Evangelion Unit 01).

Black Hat wrote:Thank you very much! I'd love to contribute to these lists, even if my actual TF knowledge isn't that broad.

Do it, this is about having fun and starting conversations

Anyway, I see what you mean about discounting the Titanium line- I just felt that Soundwave was a particularly foul offender.

I agree with this, as it is meant to be an update, it looks like him, has the same alt mode, has the same gimmick, and I think the bio is pretty g1 based, so I'd say that that's a fair comparison - especially as this was before the huge generations push to update these characters (especially as we didn't get our proper update to soundwave until just this year - that, to me, makes this a reasonable comparison)

Black Hat wrote:However, there is one example of "original toy better than update" you missed- Titanium Soundwave vs G1 Soundwave. Sure, the Titanium line is easy pickings in general, but Soundwave really takes the cake- most of the others at least LOOK good, but Soundwave looks like he's wearing a nappy, has really, really weird torso proportions, collapses into MidgetWave thanks to his telescoping legs, and generally sucks all round.

He actually said in his honorable mentions that if he got into the Titaniums, there would be nothing else on the list.

william-james88 wrote:And Kurona, I get what you mean about Skylynx, but the generations line is specifically about updating classic characters for better or worse. This was their big unveiling for skylynx, finally, and they knew that. And they chose to reintroduce him as a standard torso rather than the unique toy he should be. Prowl and company already had classics toys and even then they are all perfectly fine when compared to their originals. Nothing was taken away from them. Ironhide finally has a head All CW skylynx gives us is another Torso to play with but it doesnt give us a Classics skylynx for our classics collection, where we are still better off using the G1 toy for that representation. That is my main point.

But again, as I said... that's not a criticism of the toy. That's a criticism of the decision and concept; in execution, nothing is wrong with CW Sky Lynx as a toy. well okay a few of his joints are loose and his dragon thing mode could do a better job at standing but still, a combining Sky Lynx isn't a bad thing. In fact it's a pretty incredible thing and I like what they done with the idea; I actually think it's one of the best if not the best looking torso from the entire line.
The title of this list is "Top 5 Transformers Toys which are better than their Update", and going by that alone, it's simply unfair to say G1 Sky Lynx is 'better' than CW Sky Lynx just because the latter does something different. It would be fair if the figure was a Leader Class Sky Lynx that simply had the original gimmick of the toy gutted and nothing to replace it with it's only gimmick being "transforms from shuttle mode to bizarre bird dragon abomination", but since the CW toy was going for something different, it can't be said to be better or worse. It's just different.

Though I am kind of curious - following this same line of reasoning, do you not like Titans Return Alpha Trion? It's a rather good toy and an incredible design, but it does not accurately represent any version of Alpha Trion to date despite it being his first toy.

Zeedust wrote:

Black Hat wrote:However, there is one example of "original toy better than update" you missed- Titanium Soundwave vs G1 Soundwave. Sure, the Titanium line is easy pickings in general, but Soundwave really takes the cake- most of the others at least LOOK good, but Soundwave looks like he's wearing a nappy, has really, really weird torso proportions, collapses into MidgetWave thanks to his telescoping legs, and generally sucks all round.

He actually said in his honorable mentions that if he got into the Titaniums, there would be nothing else on the list.

Thanks for defending me zeedust. But I actually wrote that part after the facts since it is a totally legitimate which I ignored. So I felt like writing why. I thank you all for supporting these lists, adding tobthe conversation and even making them better, as was just the case.

Kurona wrote:The title of this list is "Top 5 Transformers Toys which are better than their Update", and going by that alone, it's simply unfair to say G1 Sky Lynx is 'better' than CW Sky Lynx just because the latter does something different.

My beef is not that he does something different per se. Its that the original toy's uniqueness is gone. The original toy is better because he is unique and unlike anything else before or since. And I dont think CW Skylynx is a great toy anyway, at least not for skylynx. Funny enough, the only reason why I think he is worth picking up is the torso mode I find the vehicle mode useless when it cant seperate and I dont like the cheeze grater wings, and I also dislike the sculpted fake hinges found on the toy. He just feels so damn cheap compared to the original, and both have comparable articulation. All I mean to say is that if someone wants Skylynx in their collection, pick up the G1 toy, his originality makes him more fun than having another combiner wars torso. I simply much preffer the G1 version as a toy, than his update.

But I see we dont see eye to eye on this and thats fine, diversity of opinions brings that extra spice to the table, and I do truly thank you for this fun debate. But fair warning, I will never back down (well unless my wife steps in)

Though I am kind of curious - following this same line of reasoning, do you not like Titans Return Alpha Trion? It's a rather good toy and an incredible design, but it does not accurately represent any version of Alpha Trion to date despite it being his first toy.

It means a lot that you want my opinion on this. I pesonally dont think he is a great figure at all and I think the triple changer aspect being forced on him (when he wasnt originally meant to have it) weakens him. You end up with 2 subpar modes out of 3. Still a great looking bot mode though, regardless if it doesnt look like any previous design. Of course, that is far more excusable when Alpha Trion didnt transform in those more traditional designs so its unfair for me to want to have that very humanoid and kibble free design replicated. I think he looks great in robot mode but he is still by no means a good toy in my eyes. I feel for him the same way I feel about TR Fort Max. Great robot mode, and not much else. I did preorder the leo prime repaint though since I am hoping the more uniform colour scheme can elevate the mold and make the alt modes more cohesive.

Black Hat wrote:This makes me think, a potentially good list could be "Top 5 Soundwave toys". Obviously the MP would be on there, but what others do you think should make it? I'm thinking the Cybertron toy (for being a legitimately awesome design in its own right whilst remaining instantly recognizable as Soundwave), Animated Soundwave (for the cool "beat box" car mode and GUITAR LASERBEAK) and Prime Soundwave (for being such a radical reinterpretation on Soundwave as a character, being a fun, deloightfully expressive and creepy toy, and looking an awful lot like Soundwave made sweet love to Evangelion Unit 01).

Then guess what buddy, you just signed up for a top 5 Soundwaves list! I will send you a PM later so we can start getting it in order although you gave me a pretty good head start. Also, we might have to wait till I get to try out that Human Alliance Soundwave toy in the coming months, I hear he is really good. RID soundwave is coming out too, and I really dont know if TR soundwave stands a chance, compared to G1, when the MP would already be there. Its tough when the designs and features are so similar (I see the irony in that, Kurona). Do we just pick the ones that does it best and ignore the rest? I dont know.
But hey, as long as we can agree to leave FOC soundwave off the list, then we should be fine

So, Will, you finally managed to have a DOTM HA Soundwave coming your way? Even if it's a KO, you'll get the feel of how awesome that mold is. Just you wait.

-Kanrabat- wrote:So, Will, you finally managed to have a DOTM HA Soundwave coming your way? Even if it's a KO, you'll get the feel of how awesome that mold is. Just you wait.

I'm getting the reissue with the more screen accurate deco, you can see him in this commercial: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lip/37182/

william-james88 wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:So, Will, you finally managed to have a DOTM HA Soundwave coming your way? Even if it's a KO, you'll get the feel of how awesome that mold is. Just you wait.

I'm getting the reissue with the more screen accurate deco, you can see him in this commercial: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lip/37182/

Even better. You'll have a blast for sure. Mabe even on HA Jazz level.

Can't agree more with fort max. Although he is a lot of fun, the "City mode" is basically just the designers trying to get that mode with as little effort as possible.

However CW skylynx is a really good figure for the line it's in. I like the look of him, and it feels like a good enough figure to be in a collection. Hope a 3rd party company upscales him like they did defensor.

william-james88 wrote:

Black Hat wrote:This makes me think, a potentially good list could be "Top 5 Soundwave toys". Obviously the MP would be on there, but what others do you think should make it? I'm thinking the Cybertron toy (for being a legitimately awesome design in its own right whilst remaining instantly recognizable as Soundwave), Animated Soundwave (for the cool "beat box" car mode and GUITAR LASERBEAK) and Prime Soundwave (for being such a radical reinterpretation on Soundwave as a character, being a fun, deloightfully expressive and creepy toy, and looking an awful lot like Soundwave made sweet love to Evangelion Unit 01).

Then guess what buddy, you just signed up for a top 5 Soundwaves list! I will send you a PM later so we can start getting it in order although you gave me a pretty good head start. Also, we might have to wait till I get to try out that Human Alliance Soundwave toy in the coming months, I hear he is really good. RID soundwave is coming out too, and I really dont know if TR soundwave stands a chance, compared to G1, when the MP would already be there. Its tough when the designs and features are so similar (I see the irony in that, Kurona). Do we just pick the ones that does it best and ignore the rest? I dont know.
But hey, as long as we can agree to leave FOC soundwave off the list, then we should be fine

I ask because Animated Soundblaster is supposedly (from what I hear) a better toy than Soundwave by virtue of better QC and, of course, Keytar Ratbat.

I wouldn't include TR Soundwave myself. He just looks too much like a Blaster retool. I really want Blaster once my home situation is sorted out and I can collect to my heart's content again, but Soundwave just doesn't appeal to me.

Some other Soundwaves I can think of...

BW Soundwave: Probably wouldn't make the list as he looks ludicrous and suffers from GPS, maybe deserves a mention for how utterly bizarre he is though.

Machine Wars Soundwave: Sure it's just Stalker with a different colour scheme, but Stalker was a cool toy, and the colours rock. I actually wouldn't mind a G1 styled Soundwave in that deco.

Gobot Soundwave: Yeah, perhaps not...

G1 Soundwave: The granddaddy, and one of the few G1 toys I wouldn't mind owning. Still has a certain undeniable charm, and gave birth to one of the best gimmicks ever (IMO).

Music Label Soundwave: Sure he sucks as a music player (or so I'm told) but as a G1 style Soundwave he rocks.

ROTF Soundwave: Whereas Prime Soundwave looks like the unholy spawn of Evangelion Unit 01, this guy has some Neue Ziel ancestry. Sure his spaceship mode is a washout, but the satellite mode is delightfully sinister, and the robot mode looks good too.

I suspect that those who are apologists for CW Skylynx don't own the re-released G1 version from Takara. It's sad that an old toy is simply better than the newer version. The CW version cannot "combe", ironically enough, into what he should, and/separate into his constituent parts. Heck, it can't even stand up straight.

The Japanese version, even though it might have better paint apps, failed due to the high price, as it was stupidly released, like Optimus, in a pointless gift set with other unwanted G1 characters that are already better in CHUG (except fit Ironhide and Ratchet, but who wants Ratchet out of first aid?).

primalxconvoy wrote:I suspect that those who are apologists for CW Skylynx don't own the re-released G1 version from Takara. It's sad that an old toy is simply better than the newer version. The CW version cannot "combe", ironically enough, into what he should, and/separate into his constituent parts. Heck, it can't even stand up straight.

The Japanese version, even though it might have better paint apps, failed due to the high price, as it was stupidly released, like Optimus, in a pointless gift set with other unwanted G1 characters that are already better in CHUG (except fit Ironhide and Ratchet, but who wants Ratchet out of first aid?).

Or it could be, and follow me on this one, that people actually like what they did with the cw version...

If I had a choice between the two, I'd take the cw one every time. The original is a dumb lump and I wouldn't get it even if it was free