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Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:31 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:Assuming we won't get any other stories like this, which I hope we do, there's 1 glaring continuity hole I won't forget. In issue 1 of the original Marvel comic, all the Bots and Cons wake up inside the Ark, including Megatron. But at the end of this story, Megatron drops outside. How does his body get back inside the Ark?
Yeah, and the other Autobots AUNTIE awoke are still outside too. They all gotta get put back inside the Ark (and destroyed again in the Autobots' case), but they were all left unaccounted for.
Like I said, Furman has lost a couple of steps in the last 25 years.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:11 pm

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Another big continuity issue with this series, judging by TFWiki, is that it screws with "Man of Iron" even as it tries to set it up.

Furman bringing the Wreckers in shouldn't be a surprise - they're his pet unit, and the 2005-2018 IDW comic (which in some ways he seems to have forgot he wasn't writing here) dragged them into the U.S. spotlight. And I'm pretty sure he was trying to better reconcile the US and UK comics, especially since the UK comic - which he was the main writer for and which had 252 more issues - gave several characters a lot more page-time and fleshing-out than the US one did.

Of course, IMO trying to fix-fic the Marvel comics is an exercise futility regardless unless they're willing to completely overwrite (or otherwise somehow deal with) the festering mold stain on the entire lot that is "Afterdeath." Especially if they're going to try to go all IDW-gritty with Optimus like they did here.
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Di Bonaventura is not a credible or trustworthy source. And most fans do like the diversity push, thanks.

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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:59 pm

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ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Another big continuity issue with this series, judging by TFWiki, is that it screws with "Man of Iron" even as it tries to set it up.
Erm, you're thinking of the one-shot "Transformers '84" issue. This spinoff series, "Secrets & Lies", didn't touch upon the stuff from "Man of Iron".

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Furman bringing the Wreckers in shouldn't be a surprise - they're his pet unit, and the 2005-2018 IDW comic (which in some ways he seems to have forgot he wasn't writing here) dragged them into the U.S. spotlight.
Right, the Wreckers weren't much of an issue here. If anything, this series shows how they came to be the Wreckers, which is fine since the Wreckers were already a group by the time of "Target: 2006".

With that said, however...
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:And I'm pretty sure he was trying to better reconcile the US and UK comics, especially since the UK comic - which he was the main writer for and which had 252 more issues - gave several characters a lot more page-time and fleshing-out than the US one did.
Except, that's not what he did in this case. If anything, he overrode the continuity of the UK comics with this series as, back in the pages of "Target: 2006", he wrote a back-up story called "Cybertron: The Middle Years!" in which he told a summary of events that happened on Cybertron during the 4-million-year time gap between the Ark's crash-landing on Earth and its occuprants awakening in the 80s.

In that story, Furman told of a Decepticon warlord named Trannis who rose to power in Megatron's absence and brought the Autobots to their knees. He was eventually succeeded by Straxus. "Secrets & Lies", however, completely throws all of that out the window, ignoring Trannis entirely to instead put Straxus, Scorponok, and Thunderwing all in power right away.

In his commentary pages, Furman even acts like he's treating the US and UK comics as separate continuities. One such example is when, in two of his commentaries, he says that he included Scourge and Cyclonus in this series because of how they appeared in the old Headmasters mini-series with no backstory for either. But, in his own UK issues, he did give them a backstory that made them the same Scourge and Cyclonus created by Unicron in the future, after they got sent back in time to join up with Scorponok and become Targetmasters on Nebulos.

Yet, in this series, Furman put them on four-million-year-old Cybertron because of the Headmasters mini giving them no backstory, so he chose to actively ignore what he had written before in the UK comics and regard them as separate from the US ones. >:oP
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:05 am

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Well, even if it was the 1-shot that dealt with Man of Iron, isn't it still a part of the TF '84 sub-story? I don't think we can consider this a new continuity, it is specified that the events are shoehorned into the G1 Marvel continuity to take place while the Ark and it's occupants are dormant. Personally, when I read the series again in the near future, I'll read the 1st 4 issues, then read the TF '84 sub-story, then pick up with issue #5.

I would love a comic series (miniseries or regular length) that is set on Cybertron in the past, starring Maximus and Scorponok, as well as Straxus and the resistance group headed by Preceptor that includes Blaster and the others from US issues 17 and 18.

No Wreckers, please. I never liked them. They didn't need to be brought into the US series in either Secrets & Lies or in Regeneration One. Neither did Star Saber and Deathsaurus. Completely pointless.

As I said before, Furman has lost a couple of steps creatively in the last 15 years, but I still prefer his work to both Roberts and the current IDW series.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby commander shockwav » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:48 pm

Well, this thing started as one of the best Transformers issues I've read since my days as a teenager over thirty years ago (and for that, Simon and Guido, I will be forever grateful) but quickly devolved over the next three issues into something akin to a train wreck. It's like Furman wanted to take those early stories which, in my case anyway, were the very foundation of what got me into Transformers, and deface them like Runamock and Runabout did to the Statue of Liberty in one of those early Marvel run issues. This series ended so...pointless and helter-skelter. Seemed like Simon just wanted to take everything that came later and shoehorn it in there somehow, even if it added nothing to the story.

And is it just me or does Simon hate Budiansky Blaster, who was one of the classic TF characters of all time? Not a hint of the guy in this like I was hoping. Probably better he was left unspoiled.

But Guido's art? Oh man, how he can take us back! I almost shed a tear.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:00 pm

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I have to wonder the whole Decepticon Skyfire thing (which was itself very unnecessary) was done to appease a Hasbro request to advertise the Commander class Jetfire toy and its faction-changing gimmick.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:40 am

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Sabrblade wrote:I have to wonder the whole Decepticon Skyfire thing (which was itself very unnecessary) was done to appease a Hasbro request to advertise the Commander class Jetfire toy and its faction-changing gimmick.
Most likely, but that part of the story fit in fairly seamlessly. It was some of the other plot points that were unnecessary and out of place, seemed to be forced in, most obviously Deathsaurus and Star Saber. No point to their inclusion at all.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:03 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I have to wonder the whole Decepticon Skyfire thing (which was itself very unnecessary) was done to appease a Hasbro request to advertise the Commander class Jetfire toy and its faction-changing gimmick.
Most likely, but that part of the story fit in fairly seamlessly.
Except now it creates an awkward-in-hindsight disconnect between him and his former Decepticon comrades when he is later "resurrected" as Jetfire and turned into an Autobot. As in, none of them ever seem to remember his time as Skyfire and none of the Decepticons ever call him out for switching sides (because it didn't originally happen, but now that did, this lack of acknowledgement in the original run feels like something is missing).
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:12 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Sabrblade wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I have to wonder the whole Decepticon Skyfire thing (which was itself very unnecessary) was done to appease a Hasbro request to advertise the Commander class Jetfire toy and its faction-changing gimmick.
Most likely, but that part of the story fit in fairly seamlessly.
Except now it creates an awkward-in-hindsight disconnect between him and his former Decepticon comrades when he is later "resurrected" as Jetfire and turned into an Autobot. As in, none of them ever seem to remember his time as Skyfire and none of the Decepticons ever call him out for switching sides (because it didn't originally happen, but now that did, this lack of acknowledgement in the original run feels like something is missing).
Technically when Shockwave resurrected him (instead of created him as it was originally) he was a Decepticon, if only in programming. So does that mean he was not really alive yet, until he was infused with the Creation Matrix, considering his spark was destroyed in TF'84? If he was, then he consciously switched sides in the original comics, and wasn't called on it. So the awkwardness you speak of was already there before the backstory was added.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:24 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I have to wonder the whole Decepticon Skyfire thing (which was itself very unnecessary) was done to appease a Hasbro request to advertise the Commander class Jetfire toy and its faction-changing gimmick.
Most likely, but that part of the story fit in fairly seamlessly.
Except now it creates an awkward-in-hindsight disconnect between him and his former Decepticon comrades when he is later "resurrected" as Jetfire and turned into an Autobot. As in, none of them ever seem to remember his time as Skyfire and none of the Decepticons ever call him out for switching sides (because it didn't originally happen, but now that did, this lack of acknowledgement in the original run feels like something is missing).
Technically when Shockwave resurrected him (instead of created him as it was originally) he was a Decepticon, if only in programming. So does that mean he was not really alive yet, until he was infused with the Creation Matrix, considering his spark was destroyed in TF'84? If he was, then he consciously switched sides in the original comics, and wasn't called on it. So the awkwardness you speak of was already there before the backstory was added.
Yes, but less so since he was only just created for the first time and didn't get to interact that much with his then-fellow Decepticons. But with the added backstory showing his history of working with the other Decepticons, the awkwardness is increased beyond its original extent.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:26 pm

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@Sabrblade Thank you for the corrections. However, as Rodimus points out that one-shot is still part of Transformers '84.

I personally think that Furman is self-plagiarizing from his Dreamwave days with the Skyfire-Shockwave thing. And pairing them up is itself a callback to the original Jetfire vs. Shockwave ad from 1985.

Rodimus, if there's Furman there's going to be Wreckers. They've been his pet idea as a unit since their inception and he's never going to stop using them unless threatened with cancellation.

I stand by my statement that there still needs to be some serious lifting or overwriting to deal with the mess that is "Afterdeath" for any of this to be worthwhile.
WANT:
* Cybertron Galvatron key, missiles
* Omega Lock
* Primus Cyber Key, coattail panel
* Powerlinx Comettor
* Cyb Jetfire R gun and missile
* RiD Galvy dragon head, beast arms
* DotM Ironhide windshield, R hood assy.
* ROTF Jetfire R JTFR panel

Di Bonaventura is not a credible or trustworthy source. And most fans do like the diversity push, thanks.

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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:59 am

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ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:I personally think that Furman is self-plagiarizing from his Dreamwave days with the Skyfire-Shockwave thing. And pairing them up is itself a callback to the original Jetfire vs. Shockwave ad from 1985.
Regardless of its origins, I still think it's a good dynamic and should be used as a basis for a story. Too bad Furman didn't take it any further. He could have written the whole 4-issue miniseries about these 2 having history together. But of course the needless fanservicing with the Wreckers and Deathsaurus and Star Saber had to take up page space.
Rodimus, if there's Furman there's going to be Wreckers. They've been his pet idea as a unit since their inception and he's never going to stop using them unless threatened with cancellation.
Whatever it takes. The wreckers is a crappy concept involving some decent characters who would be better off.
I stand by my statement that there still needs to be some serious lifting or overwriting to deal with the mess that is "Afterdeath" for any of this to be worthwhile.
Is it just the ridiculousness of Optimus's consciousness being stored on a freaking floppy disk that bothers you, or is it the whole issue? Because the battle against the Combaticons was there to serve as a lesson in the value of teamwork and compassion.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby ZeldaTheSwordsman » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:14 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:Whatever it takes. The wreckers is a crappy concept involving some decent characters who would be better off.
What bothers you so much about the Wreckers as a concept?

Rodimus Prime wrote:Is it just the ridiculousness of Optimus's consciousness being stored on a freaking floppy disk that bothers you, or is it the whole issue? Because the battle against the Combaticons was there to serve as a lesson in the value of teamwork and compassion.
It's the ridiculousness of Optimus committing suicide over accidentally killing video game NPCs. And Ethan Zachary just going along with it.
That trainwreck is the hideous, godawful mold stain on the plot that keeps me from enjoying the Marvel continuities.

Unless that's fixed, whether through overwriting or SEVERE recontextualizing, nothing else ultimately matters.
And Furman is especially going to have to fix that mess if he's going to portray Optimus as so determined to keep Megatron out of the game at any cost that he stasis-locks himself and his own crew and has a contingency order that anyone who tries to unbury them be assassinated.
WANT:
* Cybertron Galvatron key, missiles
* Omega Lock
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* Powerlinx Comettor
* Cyb Jetfire R gun and missile
* RiD Galvy dragon head, beast arms
* DotM Ironhide windshield, R hood assy.
* ROTF Jetfire R JTFR panel

Di Bonaventura is not a credible or trustworthy source. And most fans do like the diversity push, thanks.

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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:58 am

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Yeah, Marvel G1 has probably the worst Optimus Prime death ever put to paper.

But, I think it kinda balances out since Furman later gave it one of the best Optimus Prime deaths ever in Issue 75.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:48 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, Marvel G1 has probably the worst Optimus Prime death ever put to paper.

But, I think it kinda balances out since Furman later gave it one of the best Optimus Prime deaths ever in Issue 75.
I was never a big fan of Prime for his many (and mostly bafflingly stupid) deaths, it makes him seem like an ineffective leader at best and a suicidal/homicidal emo at worst. Either way, not an inspiring character.

However, his death sequence against Unicron all hut redeems him, even though he did it without any second thoughts whatsoever, which I guess is supposed to point toward his complete selflessness, but to me is just another sign of his desire to kill himself. But what got me is the opening pages of issue 76, where he uses his last words to try to bring Prowl and Grimlock together for the betterment of the Autobots.

...and then he comes back 4 issues later.

Again.

As for my hatred for the wreckers, it's not so much as the characters themselves, it's that their grouping is unnecessary. The Transformers already had quite a few groups (Dinobots, gestalt teams) that could have used that type of characterization, and could have gotten more page space. Both in the original and in TF'84. The only thing should have been lost had 1 of the other groups were written as the Wreckers were was them constantly losing and replacing members.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:24 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:...and then he comes back 4 issues later.

Again.
For that, you can thank both the higher ups at Marvel canceling the series prematurely, and the folks at Hasbro wanting the comic to advertise Action Master Optimus before its rushed end.

Though, it's Furman I blame for not using Regeneration One to actually do what he was originally going to do before the original comic's cancelation, instead using it to do other things completely unrelated to the next big storyline Furman had in mind post-Unicron.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:01 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Sabrblade wrote:Though, it's Furman I blame for not using Regeneration One to actually do what he was originally going to do before the original comic's cancelation, instead using it to do other things completely unrelated to the next big storyline Furman had in mind post-Unicron.
didn't he do that in the G2 comics?

And yes, he should have kept the UK-only characters out of Regeneration 1, considering that he even stated that RG1 will follow the US run only. So again, no wreckers. Magnus I could take or leave. And IMO rehashing the Magnus-Galvatron fight cheapened the original event, even if it was UK-only.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:11 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Though, it's Furman I blame for not using Regeneration One to actually do what he was originally going to do before the original comic's cancelation, instead using it to do other things completely unrelated to the next big storyline Furman had in mind post-Unicron.
didn't he do that in the G2 comics?
ReG1 was a second chance to do the proper continuation of the G1 comics that he had wanted to do back in the day (as in, the true full-length quest for the Last Autobot), but he instead chose to write a bunch of other stuff that in no way would he have written for the original series way back then (some of which was even just a retread of the G2 comics).
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:25 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Sabrblade wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Though, it's Furman I blame for not using Regeneration One to actually do what he was originally going to do before the original comic's cancelation, instead using it to do other things completely unrelated to the next big storyline Furman had in mind post-Unicron.
didn't he do that in the G2 comics?
ReG1 was a second chance to do the proper continuation of the G1 comics that he had wanted to do back in the day (as in, the true full-length quest for the Last Autobot), but he instead chose to write a bunch of other stuff that in no way would he have written for the original series way back then (some of which was even just a retread of the G2 comics).
Yes it was. As I said before, he has lost a couple of steps since the Dreamwave days. Or maybe he was just lazy and thought he could cover it up by changing a few characters and events around.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:08 am

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I'm just gonna be that guy and say I like reading Wreckers stories and also enjoyed RG1. I had basic understanding of Marvel G1 when I bought and read all of RG1 in one go, and I enjoyed it pretty much in its entirety.
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Re: Transformers '84: Secrets & Lies

Postby Rodimus Prime » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:04 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Well to each his own, no problem with that. I liked RG1 for the most part, only the 2nd arc was underwhelming, while the 3rd was just alright. It started and ended well.

Anyway, I think if Secrets n Lies ever gets more issues, I would like to see stories of Maximus and Scorponok before they starred in the Headmasters miniseries.
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #346 - Gas Station Jamboree
Twincast / Podcast #346:
"Gas Station Jamboree"
MP3 · iTunes · RSS · View · Discuss · Ask
Posted: Saturday, March 23rd, 2024

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