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carytheone wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

carytheone wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Entertainment Earth? Well, time to give that ol' GameStop a visit.

I have yet to see any TFs at any of our GameStops

They have appeared in Canadian ones, but one can hope, right?

Hope springs eternal, but don't let anyone here that.

I saw some wave 1 tlk stuff at a gamestop in our mall once; this was back when cogman was supposedly gonna end up there

I'm not wasting any money on these tiny Dinobots. The Dinobots should have been the Titan class instead of Predaking. Hasbro screwed up so I didn't buy any of them. I'll give my money to 3rd party instead.

In a way I was happy with the deluxe dinos - they were more affordable that way - I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I like the red swoop as it makes the team feel more cohesive, though I'll keep my blue swipe cos of the cartoon. Loved the little saunter he took on Cybertron with spike...

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)? All scramble City style teams have the leader as their torsos.

How many non sc combines are there though? I think even the Micromasters combines had the leader be either the one who sat in the chest

I mean I know the first two Devy and Raiden...but after that?

o.supreme wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)?

Scrapper / Devastator

ZeroWolf wrote:All scramble City style teams have the leader as their torsos.

see...you put the "SC" qualifier after your initial statement... True, to my knowledge this has been a constant up until now, but basically non SC combiners show us that, while the symbolism of the leader being central (physically and figuratively)to the team is strong, it is not necessary.

And what else would you call the CW/PotP combiner standard combiner style? Like the Energon combiners, it's a modernization of the Scramble City principle.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.

1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.

2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:



3. Grimlock is not only the leader, he's also the most well-known of the Dinobots. That tends to put him at the head of the queue.

Now frankly, for scale purposes they would all be Voyagers ideally, but that would be a tall order to do all in one line. And it would make Volcanicus out of scale with Menasor, Bruticus, and Abominus.

o.supreme wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

o.supreme wrote:True, to my knowledge this has been a constant up until now, but basically non SC combiners show us that, while the symbolism of the leader being central (physically and figuratively)to the team is strong, it is not necessary.

And what else would you call the CW/PotP combiner standard combiner style? Like the Energon combiners, it's a modernization of the Scramble City principle.

I was not discussing what name to call the modern design. I am perfectly fine calling all combiners from CW/UW & PotP (sans Devastator and Predaking of course) "Scramble City" Combiners.

What I was saying was that, the central figure that usually makes up the torso or part of the torso doesn't always necessarily have to be the leader. It's a nice design aesthetic, (in many genres featuring combining robots) one we are most accustomed to. But for me, it doesn't *make or break* a combiner team.

In non-SC Teams you will note all members are roughly the same size, so anyone can feel "right" as a leader by size alone... well, Shouki of the Trainbots is actually the shortest, but he does form the upper torso Devastator and Dinoking having the leader be anything other than (part of) the torso is more exception than the norm, really: Landcross, Liokaiser and Road Ceasar had the leaders in that role, and Build King and JRX followed suit.

The Micromaster Combiners... *looks it up* O dear... Sixturbo and Sixtrain had the leaders be the torso and head, the rest is in a rather embarrassing role as the combiner's bottom. True, technically part of the torso, but still...

Back to the Selects range... any new info on the Combat Hero Megatron redeco?

I hope this line will use more than just molds from PotP...

Rainmaker wrote:I hope this line will use more than just molds from PotP...

The upcoming Megatron will be a redeco of the Siege Voyager.

ZeroWolf wrote:Can you name any teams where the leader doesn't form the torso (or part of it at least)?

Like it was mentioned, Devastator. The original.

Zelda wrote:1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.

Matter of opinion. I think he sux. So much so that I use the Dinobots with Sky Lynx.

Zelda wrote:1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.

Sludge and Grimlock have different dino bodies. But that's not why I suggested Sludge being the torso.

Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:

They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.

Zelda wrote:3. Grimlock is not only the leader, he's also the most well-known of the Dinobots. That tends to put him at the head of the queue.

I'll give you that one. It would have been a show of bravery on the designer's part to break from this tradition. Though considering the stubbornness of the average Geewunner, it most likely wouldn't have been too popular on boards like this. However, considering that the Dinobots were never a combining team before now, there's no true precedent for making Grimlock the torso.

Zelda wrote:Now frankly, for scale purposes they would all be Voyagers ideally, but that would be a tall order to do all in one line. And it would make Volcanicus out of scale with Menasor, Bruticus, and Abominus.

But in scale with Devastator, the Dinobots' first adversary (even if Devy's first adversary was Omega Supreme) and Predaking as well, with whom the Dinobots would have matched up well, being a group of wild animals. But that would have meant that the Dinos would have been an exclusive set like Devy and Preddy, but I would have been fine with that. I still would be. As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Zelda wrote:1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.

Sludge and Grimlock have different dino bodies. But that's not why I suggested Sludge being the torso.

They have different dino bodies, but their transformation engineering is similar when it comes to the G1 designs. And with the tweaks made to allow for the torso mode it would come out about the same, so you still would hate the result even if you think Sludge should be the bigger one.
Actually, now I think about it Sludge's bulkier robot legs, longer dino neck, and rear dino legs could end up clashing with the mass limit in ways that would make him worse off.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:

They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.

Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said. Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations. Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way

Rodimus Prime wrote:However, considering that the Dinobots were never a combining team before now, there's no true precedent for making Grimlock the torso.

Not as such. But T. rex tends to be thought of as cooler, and I think a T. rex head makes for a snazzier chestplate than a Brontosaurus head.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Zelda wrote:Now frankly, for scale purposes they would all be Voyagers ideally, but that would be a tall order to do all in one line. And it would make Volcanicus out of scale with Menasor, Bruticus, and Abominus.

But in scale with Devastator, the Dinobots' first adversary (even if Devy's first adversary was Omega Supreme) and Predaking as well, with whom the Dinobots would have matched up well, being a group of wild animals. But that would have meant that the Dinos would have been an exclusive set like Devy and Preddy, but I would have been fine with that. I still would be.

Yeah? Well I wouldn't. They would likely have ended up with the same compromises and beast mode articulation issues as the Predacons, and moreover they would have been less accessible that way.

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid including your precious CW Sky Lynx.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said.

Where did I say that? I was talking about the dinosaur species the alt modes were based on. I even pointed out that Sludge and Grimlock were the same size for sales purposes.

Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations.

I did say 'should' and not 'is.' And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.

And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way

Yes, because they blend in so well now. They're dinosaurs.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid

The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.

including your precious CW Sky Lynx.

No, not 'precious' at all. Sky Lynx is mine for the sole purpose of combining the Dinobots with a torso that's also an animal, and Sky Lynx is a better option than the dumpster fire that is Grimlock's torso mode.

Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'

Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.

Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.

I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid

The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.

It validates Sunstreaker, Ironhide, Mirage, Prowl, Optimus, and Sky Lynx. Hound, Trailbreaker, Smokescreen, and Cyclonus? Not so much. You're right that it doesn't validate the Dinobots as a combining group, but gee... might that have something to do with the fact that it, y'know, antedates Power of the Primes?

including your precious CW Sky Lynx.

No, not 'precious' at all. Sky Lynx is mine for the sole purpose of combining the Dinobots with a torso that's also an animal, and Sky Lynx is a better option than the dumpster fire that is Grimlock's torso mode.

Still think it's a dumpsterfire even after finding out you were transforming the arms wrong, huh? Fine, have it your way. I personally love it and think it rocks.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'

Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.

You're picking the wrong statement. We're not talking about what I said to someone else, we're talking about our conversation. But nice try. I told you Sludge should have been bigger, as the reasoning for why I picked him over Grimlock to be the torso.

Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.

I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.

The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid

The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.

It validates Sunstreaker, Ironhide, Mirage, Prowl, Optimus, and Sky Lynx. Hound, Trailbreaker, Smokescreen, and Cyclonus? Not so much. You're right that it doesn't validate the Dinobots as a combining group, but gee... might that have something to do with the fact that it, y'know, antedates Power of the Primes?

My point still stands.

Still think it's a dumpsterfire even after finding out you were transforming the arms wrong, huh?

Yes. How far back did you have to dig to come up with that?

Fine, have it your way. I personally love it and think it rocks.

Thank you. This is what I've been saying since the beginning. Matter of opinion.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'

Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.

You're picking the wrong statement. We're not talking about what I said to someone else, we're talking about our conversation.

...Excuse me?

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.

1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.

2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
images snipped

They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.

Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said. Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations. Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way

I was going on about your statement of "Sludge was bigger anyway!" in both those posts, because as far as the G1 toys and most G1 fiction goes it's such a huge load of cesium salami that I got a tad hung up on it. And I took your saying "They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex." as arguments defending that statement. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Rodimus Prime wrote:But nice try. I told you Sludge should have been bigger, as the reasoning for why I picked him over Grimlock to be the torso.

I did still manage to respond to this despite being hung up on the other thing. This is what "Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of?" was a response to.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.

I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.

The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.

No, Grimlock too. His transformation engineering was tweaked to accommodate the torso mode, but he still takes most of his design cues and sculpted details from the original toy (I'm quite familiar with the original - own it, have frequently played with it, have even customized it), and he's definitely deco'd to evoke it.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:As for Scramble City, the Dinobots weren't included in that concept to begin with, so they shouldn't be forced into it now.

By that logic rather a lot of PotP and CW Deluxe and Voyagers are invalid

The Combiner Wars story taking place in official fiction validates most of them. I don't recall the Dinobots being a part of it as a combining group.

It validates Sunstreaker, Ironhide, Mirage, Prowl, Optimus, and Sky Lynx. Hound, Trailbreaker, Smokescreen, and Cyclonus? Not so much. You're right that it doesn't validate the Dinobots as a combining group, but gee... might that have something to do with the fact that it, y'know, antedates Power of the Primes?

My point still stands.

How so? You said the Combiner Wars story "validates most of them" ("them" presumably being characters who were made into modernized SC combiner members when they weren't SC combiner members originally), but it doesn't. It doesn't validate any of the non-Terrorcon PotP voyagers and deluxes (of which there are 14, not counting Punch/Counterpunch since he's not a limb), and it doesn't even validate all the CW instances (it only validates six of them, four are left out in the cold). That's six it validates versus eighteen it doesn't.

And that's not even getting into Earth Wars or the PotP web series, both of which feature Volcanicus.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Still think it's a dumpsterfire even after finding out you were transforming the arms wrong, huh?

Yes. How far back did you have to dig to come up with that?

Didn't need to dig, it was something that stuck in my mind.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:I did say 'should' and not 'is.'

Oh, really? Let's just double-check that shall we?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

Technically you said "was", but the principle is the same.

You're picking the wrong statement. We're not talking about what I said to someone else, we're talking about our conversation.

...Excuse me?

The sentence you quoted was part of a conversation I had with someone else. Not you. I was talking about the characters in fiction, not the toys. To you I did say 'should' and not 'is' in the first part of our discussion.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

frogbat wrote:I would've had sludge as a second voyager or even leader and he'd served as the body of vulcanicus

I had been saying that since their release. Just because Grimlock is the leader, doesn't mean he has to be the torso! Sludge was bigger anyway! Besides, Grimlock makes a horrible torso.

1a. Grimlock does not make a horrible torso.

1b. Even if you made Sludge the torso it likely wouldn't change the engineering significantly.

2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Zelda wrote:2. Sludge was bigger... but not by much:
images snipped

They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex. This size difference should have made Sludge the obvious torso. But of course I'm campaigning for accurate scale, and we know the Transformers Universe frowns upon such common sense things.

Yes, a brontosaurus is much bigger than a T. rex. But that does not automatically mean "Sludge is much bigger than Grimlock", which is what you had said. Now, if you had said "should be" you might have had a point (though one I'd still debate). But nope, you said "is" and (with the possible exception of IDW, I'm not sure) that just isn't the case with their G1 incarnations. Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of? They'd blend in about as well as Ben Grimm either way

I was going on about your statement of "Sludge was bigger anyway!" in both those posts, because as far as the G1 toys and most G1 fiction goes it's such a huge load of cesium salami that I got a tad hung up on it. And I took your saying "They were made the same size for sales purposes. A brontosaurus is much bigger than a T-Rex." as arguments defending that statement. My apologies for misunderstanding.

It's alright I just wanted to make sure my reasoning was clear so maybe I overdid it.

Rodimus Prime wrote:But nice try. I told you Sludge should have been bigger, as the reasoning for why I picked him over Grimlock to be the torso.

I did still manage to respond to this despite being hung up on the other thing. This is what "Honestly, the G1 Dinobots kinda have the Beast Wars thing going on of the altmode being scaled to the robot rather than the other way 'round. And why do they necessarily need to match the sizes of the millennia-extinct animals their alternate modes are machines in the rough image of?" was a response to.

I got that, I was trying to leave it out so we don't go on a tangent about Beast Wars as well, which I tend to do.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And these are not G1 incarnations. These are Power of the Primes. In G1, the Dinobots didn't combine, another point I made.

I meant that they're the same characters. And the PotP toys are very heavily based on the G1 designs.

The 4 limb Dinobots, yes. Grimlock? Not so much.

No, Grimlock too. His transformation engineering was tweaked to accommodate the torso mode, but he still takes most of his design cues and sculpted details from the original toy (I'm quite familiar with the original - own it, have frequently played with it, have even customized it), and he's definitely deco'd to evoke it.

Okay I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think PoTP Grimlock was modified too much to resemble the G1 figure in construction. He kinda looks like him in robot mode, the dino mode is atrocious, and was clearly sacrificed for the torso mode, which to me is a mess. The shoulders are too weak, skinny, and wide. You like it, and that's fine, to each his own.

My point still stands.

How so? You said the Combiner Wars story "validates most of them" ("them" presumably being characters who were made into modernized SC combiner members when they weren't SC combiner members originally), but it doesn't. It doesn't validate any of the non-Terrorcon PotP voyagers and deluxes (of which there are 14, not counting Punch/Counterpunch since he's not a limb), and it doesn't even validate all the CW instances (it only validates six of them, four are left out in the cold). That's six it validates versus eighteen it doesn't.

And that's not even getting into Earth Wars or the PotP web series, both of which feature Volcanicus.

I never saw those, so I'll concede that point. I was going strictly by the comics.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rainmaker wrote:I hope this line will use more than just molds from PotP...

The upcoming Megatron will be a redeco of the Siege Voyager.

Wait what, how'd I miss this? What's the deco based on?