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The more we learn of this toyline, the more I suspect that there was a lot left on the cutting room floor. Everything about this line just feels so rushed and incomplete. It's a toyline centered around the Primes, and instead of actual figures, we got pseudo Titan Masters. Instead of Combiner Wars 2.0, we got two full gestalts and a bunch of random combiner pieces. The design team is always very tight lipped with development details (probably due to NDAs), which makes the whole situation even more confusing.

I was going to say we already have a star saber (in different colours and I think a version came with beast hunters voyager optimus) and requiem blaster (again in different colours) but os beat me to it though I wonder why the skyboom shield never got any love

Yeah, LoreKeeper, it does feel like the line got cut short. I hope they find some way to finish it out as intended, even if it's by directing leftover toys to BBTS or Amazon. I want those other two femmebot limbs! I'd also love some box set trios of seeker limbs (from the ghost scarscream mold). Maybe for SDCC or a store exclusive? (Or a KO company if Hasbro doesn't have plans for this?)

And thanks ZeroWolf.... the SkyBoom Shield was another I was trying to think of.

And as mentioned above, I KNOW many of these have come out across decades as Minicons, convention exclusives and Bayverse accessories. My point is wanting to see these relics IN ONE DESIGN AESTHETIC and... you know, as the lines "MacGuffin." I want the weapons to match... and look good with CHUG/CW/TR/POTP toys... and have a coherent story.

(Hopefully a 3P will read this and make some. I know it's pretty much wishful thinking.)

Yeah, a unified-looking set of Prime Relics would be cool. The Star Sabre I'm actually cool with using the Armada version for (though ATM the only complete version of that I have is the Energon Sabre; I do have the Dark Sabre too but one of the members has a broken leg), I like the idea that it was made of three independent Transformers to try and avoid it falling into the wrong hands. The Requiem Blaster though I feel needs a proper version. I like the look of the old Armada mold, but not as the legendary cursed relic of the Fallen.

That aside, in terms of relics and how to represent them...

(Note: This is based on my interpretation more than any existing official canon, please forgive any flagrant lore violations...)

>Alpha Trion: Alpha Trion's sword could work for the Quill; nobody said it had to be a literal quill. For all we know the name is intentionally misleading so that evildoers underestimate Alpha Trion's power. As for the Covenant of Primus, I'd perhaps say that the Alpha Trion Prime Master (AKA the "Matrix of Wisdom") is a transmuted form of the original Covenant. The sarcophagus' gun mode, meanwhile, could be a "brainwave blaster", not really a conventional weapon per se, but able to impart knowledge- or extract it- from any entity.
>Vector Prime: Rhisling is already represented canonically in the form of the sword that comes with Cybertron Vector Prime. His Prime Master could be the "Matrix of Time" whilst the weapon mode of the sarcophagus is a "Key of the Chronomancer" and essentially functions like a portal gun except with time.
>Quintus Prime: The Emberstone could realistically be made fairly easily out of any sufficiently blingy trinket- a marble or a cheap piece of crystal would do. His Prime Master could form the "Matrix of Judgement", whilst the Bludgeon sarcophagus' tetsubo mode could be reimagined as the "Judicator", a weapon that will only wound those guilty of a previously-quantified crime. I've always liked the idea of Quintus Prime as being the upholder of justice amongst the Primes, along with his creations the Quintessons (shortly before everything all went spectacularly wrong), thus the whole judgement theme.
>Alchemist Prime/Chemos Prime: The Lenses are described as being affixed to his face. However If one were to represent them separately from him (which would make sense depending on his fate; I headcanon that he later became the wandering bringer of pesitlence known as Toxitron following his demise and the capture of his spark by Liege Maximo) I'm not sure how you'd do it. The Figma of Drossel von Flugel from Fireball Charming comes with an astrology staff that could be theoretically used but it's not 5mm, it's fragile for such a purpose (it's very much intended for display) and the figure is very pricey! As for his Prime Master, I'd call it the "Matrix of Learning" and christen the sarcophagus-weapon as the "Alchemist's Trident", which is equal parts weapon and scientific implement.
>Liege Maximo: Whilst he is described as being armed with the "Liegian Darts" I'd be tempted to represent these with Fakebusker's Shapeways spiker gun (intended for the Dreads) and paint it up in Liege Maximo-y colours. The Prime Master could represent the "Matrix of Corruption" and the sarcophagus could be the "Claw of Command", which allows the bearer to dominate the will of any being. That aside I don't think he needs many relics- his greatest weapon is his incomparable mastery of language and unparalleled manipulativeness.
>Solus Prime: The Forge is easy enough to represent; Fakebusker made a Shapeways version of it. The Creation Lathe less so because it's not actually a physical object so much as projected energy from her body. The Prime Master could represent her "Matrix of Creation" (perhaps the source of power for the Lathe) whilst the Octopunch sarcophagus weapon thing could be the "Life Giver", a sacred implement that possesses the ability to give a spark to any machine.
>The Fallen: His Requiem Blaster should be represented by a suitably sinister and impressive looking weapon. I'd say Fakebusker's version of Sentinel Prime's Cosmic Rust gun painted differently would do the job nicely. As for his Prime Master, the Matrix could be the "Matrix of Conquest" whilst the claw weapon could be the "Hand of Chaos".
>Micronus Prime: Whilst he is described as possessing a "Chimera Stone" I think Micronus works best if he is represented solely by the Prime Master (also forming his own "Matrix of Unity"), whilst his sarcophagus weapon forms the "Equalizer", a device that can either give or take power from the target.
>Amalgamous Prime: There is no Prime Master at the moment, so that's awkward. His only known relic is the Scythe, which takes any form it wishes so technically could be represented by literally any weapon you so desire.
>Nexus Prime: Again, no Prime Master yet. The Enigmas of Combination that come with POTP Voyagers could make for relics, though for the original I'd be tempted to wait until we eventually get a Nexus PM. The Cyber Calibur, however, could be represented either by Fakebusker's rather neat set of combining Dinobot swords or by the PerfectEffect combining sword addon for Volcanicus. Or even Megatronia/Victorion's sword if you so wished.
>Prima: No Prime Master for him either, though really any version of the Matrix of Leadership could be his relic. As for the Star Sabre there are various toys of it, though I personally like the UT version for reasons mentioned earlier.
>Onyx Prime: The Prime Master for him rather annoyingly only comes with Predaking, which means not only no sarcophagus (Booo!) but also you have to buy a very expensive toy you might not actually want to get the little Matrix dude. So the "Matrix of Honour" is gonna be difficult to get. As far as Onyx' other relics though, I'll be representing him with Cybertron Scourge, and his Tryptych Mask will be represented by the three dragon heads on him.
>The Thirteenth Prime: In my headcanon, the Thirteenth is a position to be occupied rather than an actual individual, and the first of the Thirteenth was Sentinel Prime. Thus, aside from the Matrix of Leadership passed down to him by Prima/Primus from within the core of Cybertron, the relics of the Thirteenth are essentially whatever the current bearer is wielding.

...Well that was unnecessarily complicated. Oh well.

gothsaurus wrote:Regarding the enigma and other trinkets... I wish this third of the trilogy would have had more insight and lore around the bits and bobbles. Having some comics or bios or a paragraph on the box detailing what swapping out a little cube would do to a gestalt would make me more excited about them.

While we didn't get any information about the various Enigmas of Combination in the Power of the Primes line, we did get descriptions of how the Prime Masters interact with each of the Legends, Deluxe, Voyager, and Leader figures in the form of trading cards. Sure, with all the possible combinations out there, being that there are 12 (or 13) potential Prime Master powers, it relies on "trading" the information with your friends to get the general story of how these powers of ancient Transformers are wielded by their modern day descendants.

I wonder if there is a repository online somewhere collecting all the info from all the cards. Hmmmm.

I like your thinking there black hat though I'm more than happy accepting optimus prime as the thirteenth but with the provision that he reincarnates every time he dies, not as optimus every time obviously, but in this reincarnation he is op. Though I wonder if that's the same thing machinema are going to do with primal...

gothsaurus wrote:I wonder if there is a repository online somewhere collecting all the info from all the cards. Hmmmm.

I got you, fam.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Prime_Master/Combinations

HECK YEAH, LoreKeeper! Thanks!!!

All this talk of the origin story and 13 primes reminds me that the big TF history book just sits weird with me. Feels too much like Lord of the Rings or some other franchise. It's been difficult to get through, like trying to read the Bible in one sitting.

I had to shake it off and say "not in my headcanon". (That and recent IDW comic's Scooby Doo mask-off reveal of Onyx Prime. Yes, they finally revealed that under that bird cowl was "Red" from Angry Birds Transformers.)

Hoping this new line can be rooted in more of the G1-esque and videogame storytelling... less of the prime-gods stories. That stuff feels to dry and religious to me.

gothsaurus wrote:HECK YEAH, LoreKeeper! Thanks!!!

All this talk of the origin story and 13 primes reminds me that the big TF history book just sits weird with me. Feels too much like Lord of the Rings or some other franchise. It's been difficult to get through, like trying to read the Bible in one sitting.

I had to shake it off and say "not in my headcanon". (That and recent IDW comic's Scooby Doo mask-off reveal of Onyx Prime. Yes, they finally revealed that under that bird cowl was "Red" from Angry Birds Transformers.)

Hoping this new line can be rooted in more of the G1-esque and videogame storytelling... less of the prime-gods stories. That stuff feels to dry and religious to me.

Keep in mind that much of the "Covenant of Primus" is for the "Aligned" continuity family that was supposed to be the new premiere source of lore for the franchise, but has been all but forgotten just a short few years later. G1 is always going to be its own thing, and it's far less religious and mystical than some other incarnations. Who knows what Hasbro has in mind for any kind of "unifying history" of Transformers nowadays. Something tells me they really stopped putting that much thought into it. Honestly, do they really have to? Everyone knows that the Autobots are good, the Decepticons are bad, and they've been fighting each other for a loooooooong time.

I much prefer the primus/unicron creation stuff to what g1 gave us...though in a pinch I would be happy at having no defined creation for them and have unicron as this mysterious other, like the outer gods in the lovecraft mythos. Besides hasbro let's other groups come up with the fiction now and draws upon multiple sources for the toy designs. IDW will likely providing story for the next toy line.

Agreed, Wolfman. Leaving some gaps in the history and lore can actually be a really good thing. Leaves something to the imagination and lets things seem more epic and mysterious. When you explain things all away, they seem less awesome. (Example: midichlorians = The Force)

That actually make a great point. Knowing the origin or back story isn't always a good thing. Knowing what's behind Vader's mask (and it being an awkward, pubescent kid) or behind the Alien Engineer (and it being just some ole bald dude) can take away all the mystery that made a franchise good in the first place.

Either way, glad to see them stepping back from the Aligned Continuity. Really, it seemed to me like a terrible mash-up of G1 and Bayverse, which I don't think truly makes ANY of the fans happy. (Ugh, keep your filthy Bayverse chocolate out of my Geewun peanut butter. LOL.)

All that said, I do have high hopes for the upcoming line... and that it will strike a sweet spot of just-before-episode-1 with the launch of the Ark, etc. If we get tetrajets and a yellow saucer Bumblebee and all that, I will be beyond-stoked. Being very optimistic until someone tell me otherwise.

Oh, just saw ZeroWolf post.

Have you checked out all of the UK comics? Man. How those handle Primus and Unicron and all that is fantastic. Love those stories and art. I'd take those over MUCH of the Dreamwave and IDW stories and art, which is still very hit and miss for me. Seriously, can't recommend that stuff more. Track it down if you haven't read it all! Furman and Geoff Senior are top notch.

As interesting and controversial the Aligned Continuity was: it's dead. Dead as dead can be. You see, they lined up a lot of the new mythos and grand unified timeline only for it to become a serious pain to the writers of Transformers Prime. By the time Rid 2015 rolled around nobody cared. While I suspect story and setting elements of the Aligned continuity will remain with us for some time, if not forever, the idea of a singular defined universe for Transformers proved to be a failed experiment.

Edit: The problem with the Thirteen is that Hasbro completely misunderstood and mishandled them. They were intended as the 'gods' of Transformers mythology. The thing is, the Covenant of Primus gave us the supposedly mostly-accurate version of their story which...was a bad idea. The funny thing is, the pre-CoP proto-Thirteen "Original Transformers" lore was far more like a real, breathing mythology, full of incomplete stories and incoherence. Not every detail was explained. This is the problem of modern writing and worldbuilding, this Star Wars-esque obsession of having to explain, define and codify everything.

Yeah, Skritz, I like that notion. That the very-old pre-history can be spotty and conflicted and largely unknown... or even debated among the masses. (like religion is with humans) The notion of two origin stories with Primus OR the Quintessons is completely fine under those rules. It happened a long time ago and different bots believe different stories.

Skritz wrote:As interesting and controversial the Aligned Continuity was: it's dead. Dead as dead can be. You see, they lined up a lot of the new mythos and grand unified timeline only for it to become a serious pain to the writers of Transformers Prime. By the time Rid 2015 rolled around nobody cared. While I suspect story and setting elements of the Aligned continuity will remain with us for some time, if not forever, the idea of a singular defined universe for Transformers proved to be a failed experiment.

Edit: The problem with the Thirteen is that Hasbro completely misunderstood and mishandled them. They were intended as the 'gods' of Transformers mythology. The thing is, the Covenant of Primus gave us the supposedly mostly-accurate version of their story which...was a bad idea. The funny thing is, the pre-CoP proto-Thirteen "Original Transformers" lore was far more like a real, breathing mythology, full of incomplete stories and incoherence. Not every detail was explained. This is the problem of modern writing and worldbuilding, this Star Wars-esque obsession of having to explain, define and codify everything.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Whilst having identities for the Thirteen is nice, I'm firmly of the mindset that demystification- and as you say, the need to explain absolutely everything and leave nothing whatsoever to interpretation- is a bad thing for storytelling. I'm personally of the opinion that elements of the mythology of the Thirteen, notably events, quotations and even names, should be deliberately inconsistent, as though the truth was lost to the mists of time. Case in point, two of the Primes- Alchemist and Megatronus- have kinda terrible names. I prefer "Chemos Prime" for Alchemist (it sounds cooler and less obvious) and "Umbrus Prime" for Megatronus (rolls off the tongue better, is less dorky sounding and far less unimaginiative). Likewise, I prefer to think of Alpha Trion and Liege Maximo as "modern day" names for the characters, the original names being Trion Prime for Alpha Trion, and for Liege Maximo either Legitus Prime or Legion Prime.

I'd love to contribute to this discussion, but I believe its only a matter of time before we get a "stay on topic" nudge from someone. Is there a thread that is better suited for this discussion?

No harm in making one, though it would be better served in the cartoon and comics forum- unless you adapt the thread by adding pictures of toys as stand ins for the primes.

On topic mind, does it really matter if inferno and elitea don't have any proper team combinations? My understanding was they were just nice extras to the established combiners so kids could mix and match to their hearts content.

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic mind, does it really matter if inferno and elitea don't have any proper team combinations? My understanding was they were just nice extras to the established combiners so kids could mix and match to their hearts content.

Well no, nothing in Transformers really *matters* . It's just that as a fan specifically of the concept of Combining Transformers, and what they usually represent, having a dedicated team name, and combiner name, is pretty standard. This does not take away from the mix-and-match cross play concept. Even in the original series, while "scramble combination" was promoted in Japan, it was never hinted at in North American media, but we kids caught on pretty quickly . Honestly I don't even remember the base modes for the Team Leaders, but I know they were present in the instructions. Also I'm not entirely sure that integration with Metroplex and Trypticon were in their instructions either... (goes to look of scan of original Metroplex & Trypticons instructions....)...nope definitely not there.

o.supreme wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic mind, does it really matter if inferno and elitea don't have any proper team combinations? My understanding was they were just nice extras to the established combiners so kids could mix and match to their hearts content.

Well no, nothing in Transformers really *matters* . It's just that as a fan specifically of the concept of Combining Transformers, and what they usually represent, having a dedicated team name, and combiner name, is pretty standard. This does not take away from the mix-and-match cross play concept. Even in the original series, while "scramble combination" was promoted in Japan, it was never hinted at in North American media, but we kids caught on pretty quickly . Honestly I don't even remember the base modes for the Team Leaders, but I know they were present in the instructions. Also I'm not entirely sure that integration with Metroplex and Trypticon were in their instructions either... (goes to look of scan of original Metroplex & Trypticons instructions....)...nope definitely not there.

Imagine if they had designed the new team leaders to connect to Titan class figures. That level of fan service would've been amazing.

Mix and match is one thing but it does become a 'logistical problem' when some Combiner torso have no limbs.

Lore Keeper wrote:

o.supreme wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic mind, does it really matter if inferno and elitea don't have any proper team combinations? My understanding was they were just nice extras to the established combiners so kids could mix and match to their hearts content.

Well no, nothing in Transformers really *matters* . It's just that as a fan specifically of the concept of Combining Transformers, and what they usually represent, having a dedicated team name, and combiner name, is pretty standard. This does not take away from the mix-and-match cross play concept. Even in the original series, while "scramble combination" was promoted in Japan, it was never hinted at in North American media, but we kids caught on pretty quickly . Honestly I don't even remember the base modes for the Team Leaders, but I know they were present in the instructions. Also I'm not entirely sure that integration with Metroplex and Trypticon were in their instructions either... (goes to look of scan of original Metroplex & Trypticons instructions....)...nope definitely not there.

Imagine if they had designed the new team leaders to connect to Titan class figures. That level of fan service would've been amazing.

Agreed. I think this is what was attempted with Leader Class in TR. I know most fans think the base modes were the weakest, and in truth they probably were. But To be Honest, it was the base modes, and the idea of making a mega city connecting between Fort Max and Trypticon that made me want all the Leader Class in TR. As opposed to wanting none of the leaders in CW or PotP.

Skritz wrote:Mix and match is one thing but it does become a 'logistical problem' when some Combiner torso have no limbs.

Does it though? Silver bolt may be needed for a solo mission or a sneak attack has put him out of action, so Elita 1 steps up and combines with the areialbots to become elita inf1nty As I said, who needs a team when you can just steal other team members

ZeroWolf wrote:

Skritz wrote:Mix and match is one thing but it does become a 'logistical problem' when some Combiner torso have no limbs.

Does it though? Silver bolt may be needed for a solo mission or a sneak attack has put him out of action, so Elita 1 steps up and combines with the areialbots to become elita inf1nty As I said, who needs a team when you can just steal other team members

I suppose so: I don't have the space and intimacy right now to play with those toys like a kid, even if I wanted to. You have no idea how much I wish I had the space to display all those figures as a full-sized squadron for each faction, complete with their own combiner ready to duke it.

My dream room would be to have a full fledged setup like a cybertronian battlefield for all my collection to fight and die on...c'est la vi.