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Cyclonus43 wrote:It's on the interwebs.

According to the Armada video game's instruction booklet, Starscream (in his Armada-era body) has the following statistics:

Height: 19' 7" (15' 1" vehicle mode length)
Weight: 22,050 lbs
Thrust: 28,000 lbs
Vehicle Top Speed: Mach 2.7

I figured it wouldn't be far off, and would also dispose you're theory of them not making pot holes when they walked.

Why are you using the specs of a different Starscream from a different universe in a different continuity that has different rules to apply data to this Starscream?

Cyclonus43 wrote:Yes, "frail", Raf is what 3'2? Miko looks like an anorexic, and Jack is a cross between Ambercrombie and Twilight.

By that logic, I'm frail, yet that couldn't be further from the truth.

Just because they don't resemble musclebound body-builders or atheletes doesn't mean they're as wimpy as weak old men.

Cyclonus43 wrote:So maybe the writes decided not to write it in like they have for the past 30 years. I still doubt these robots are light enough to have children moving their parts around....maybe an eyeball or something.

It's not like they were freely picking up Starscream's entire arm off the ground. They were just rolling it over to a different position like, again, a large heavy tree trunk. It was round enough for them to push and roll, but still heavy enough for them to make straining and grunting noises while doing so, meaning they still had some difficulty rolling it.

Cyclonus43 wrote:And his racing with Bumblebee?

I told, he gave into peer pressure from multiple angles, but learned from his mistakes. You forget that he's a teenager. Not exactly the most perfect little angels among human beings.

Cyclonus43 wrote:Though I give you the point that he does learn over time. My problem is more with what they've been able to do, rather than who they are altogether. Raf I can understand as a computer nerd, but some of the others are a little far fetched.

Would you rather the humans be written as incompetent fools instead of rational thinkers who know how to make the best use of what they're good at?

Put yourself in their position. Suppose it was YOU and two of your friends put in their place. Would it be any different if it was you three who came up with the idea, distracted Soundwave, and pushed the button, instead of them three?

Cyclonus43 wrote:He lost it didn't he?

Doesn't mean he didn't know how to use it.

The first time he lost it was due to the magical powers of the Phase Shifter and the cunning wit of Smokescreen outsmarting his overconfidence. Had it been Miko who the Autobots were facing (if she were an enemy, that is), chances Smokescreen would have just as easily knocked her out of the suit with his special ghosting trick.

The second time he lost it was due to him taking it off to show off to his Vehicons, who suspected him of being too scared to take it off, leading to him removing it to take it off and prove them wrong. He also didn't count on Miko going for it since A) she's a puny fleshing and therefore easily underestimated by all Decepticons, and B) no one ever considered the very idea of a human, of all things, operating a Cybertronian relic. The very idea itself was laughable up until that point when Miko made it a reality.

And it didn't necessarily HAVE to be Miko who proved that a human could use it. Circumstances simply led to her being the one to do so by chance. Aganet Fowler even noted how such army could prove very useful to Unit:E, suggesting that anyone could wield it. Jack simply chose Miko to use it this time since she had had experience with it, and he knew what she was capable of when using it.

Plus, his going in first could throw off the Decepticons and catch them off guard long enough for Miko to burst in and go nuts. I mean, what Decepticon would expect an ordinary human to come through the gate unarmed and pose any kind of threat? That kind of bewilderment was all Jack and Miko needed to confuse them enough for Miko to charge in and go crazy in that brief instant of confusion.

Cyclonus43 wrote:Exactly why I feel the writers made him look dumb, in the end, they made ALL the Decepticons look weak, frail and cowardly. Who can ever think a group like that is EVER a threat????

Then I guess you simply expect too much from a children's cartoon written towards children and designed to sell children's toys to children.

This is the closest we've ever gotten to a TF cartoon written for adults, which is simply not ever going to happen.

Cyclonus43 wrote:Now you're just showing off, or that you're using your brain the wrong way

Soundwave isn't God. He has just as many weaknesses and faults as anybody.

Cyclonus43"So you're just assuming it'd be the same?[/quote]It's the same guy, in the same continuity, and show never gave contradiction to his earlier life. Hasbro's viewpoint of continuity is less "making things match up" than it is "avoidance of contradiction", and the latter of which can apply to Soundwave with little difficulty.

[quote="Cyclonus43 wrote:I wouldn't mistake "calm" for "calculating".

Then why else would he turn around so slowly instead of of immediately? In-universe reason, not simply "because the writers made him".

Cyclonus43 wrote:Except they mentioned it ON the ship.

At what point did the Decepticons talk about the Shadowzone on the ship back in the episode 15?

Cyclonus43 wrote:One last bit of logic, on why the writers made him look bad. Why didn't Soundwave just open the bridge UNDER the Miko, like he had just done previously?

Maybe he figured, since he had already done that trick, Miko might've been prepared for it, and could have jumped over it to tackle Soundwave. So opening it in front of him blocked her out from all directions.

Sabrblade wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:One last bit of logic, on why the writers made him look bad. Why didn't Soundwave just open the bridge UNDER the Miko, like he had just done previously?

Maybe he figured, since he had already done that trick, Miko might've been prepared for it, and could have jumped over it to tackle Soundwave. So opening it in front of him blocked her out from all directions.

Come on dude, Cyclonus43 has a good point. It would be hard to jump off a surface that is no longer there. If a trap door suddenly opened up under you while you were fending off an armed assailant, you're going down and thats all. It doesn't look like the portal takes long to actually be an open gateway from the moment it materializes, since there were so many quick uses of it in the show.

MINDVVIPE wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:One last bit of logic, on why the writers made him look bad. Why didn't Soundwave just open the bridge UNDER the Miko, like he had just done previously?

Maybe he figured, since he had already done that trick, Miko might've been prepared for it, and could have jumped over it to tackle Soundwave. So opening it in front of him blocked her out from all directions.

Come on dude, Cyclonus43 has a good point. It would be hard to jump off a surface that is no longer there. If a trap door suddenly opened up under you while you were fending off an armed assailant, you're going down and thats all. It doesn't look like the portal takes long to actually be an open gateway from the moment it materializes, since there were so many quick uses of it in the show.

The one he opened up under the Wreckers was one they had to run into to fall through. He didn't open it directly under them, but in front of them. Would he not repeat the process the same way for Miko if he were going to?

The Wreckers could have leapt over the one they fell into had they been prepared for it.

Sabrblade wrote:

MINDVVIPE wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:One last bit of logic, on why the writers made him look bad. Why didn't Soundwave just open the bridge UNDER the Miko, like he had just done previously?

Maybe he figured, since he had already done that trick, Miko might've been prepared for it, and could have jumped over it to tackle Soundwave. So opening it in front of him blocked her out from all directions.

Come on dude, Cyclonus43 has a good point. It would be hard to jump off a surface that is no longer there. If a trap door suddenly opened up under you while you were fending off an armed assailant, you're going down and thats all. It doesn't look like the portal takes long to actually be an open gateway from the moment it materializes, since there were so many quick uses of it in the show.

The one he opened up under the Wreckers was one they had to run into to fall through. He didn't open it directly under them, but in front of them. Would he not repeat the process the same way for Miko if he were going to?

The Wreckers could have leapt over the one they fell into had they been prepared for it.

The wreckers running into it is already daft on its own since, after one fell in, the others should have stopped and stayed back. But they had to be sent away for the story to keep going, so they did.

If they did need to run through the bridge, then it suggests that there is a distance within the bridge that one can occupy without exiting the other side, which creates another flaw in that anyone who is quick enough to turn around can re exit the way they came in. But what defines the ground in this space? seems like it is the gravity that is aligned with the earth.

Assuming its a paper thin gateway, the lack of a surface should be enough to allow the laws of psychics to determine that the empty space underneath the mass that still occupied regular reality should drop through, disregarding any need for anything to have to enter the gateway any some velocity.

I feel stupid trying to explain something that is all made up anyway, haha. But trying to dig into details that would be consistent with the rest of the show, the reasoning that a portal beneath you would let you instantly drop through to the other side stands.

MINDVVIPE wrote:If they did need to run through the bridge, then it suggests that there is a distance within the bridge that one can occupy without exiting the other side, which creates another flaw in that anyone is is quick enough to turn around can re exit the way they came in.

Assuming its a paper thin gateway, the lack of a surface should be enough to allow the laws of psychics to determine that the empty space underneath the mass that still occupied regular reality should drop through, disregarding any need for anything to have to enter the gateway any some velocity.

I meant that the portal they fell into wasn't underneath them, but ahead of them, meaning that for them to fall into it, they had to keep up their running pace to reach it and fall through it, which they did. Had they stopped running almost immediately after Soundwave opened it, they could have potentially jumped over it to avoid falling through it. But alas, they couldn't react fast enough since they weren't ready for such a trick and so kept running till they fell to their doom seconds later.

Had Soundwave repeated the same trick with Miko, she might have been more prepared for it and more ready to jump over it since Soundwave would be just repeating himself instead of diversifying his tactics to make himself less predictable and thereby trickier for Miko to defeat.

Not to mention that, they weaker the foe, the more likely a villain is to toy with them before disposal. The Wreckers posed a greater threat so he got rid of them quickly. Miko was a maggot to him, so he blocked her off to intimidate her and to defend himself from all sides so she couldn't reach him at all. A classic sadistic villain trope.

Sabrblade wrote:Not to mention that, they weaker the foe, the more likely a villain is to toy with them before disposal. The Wreckers posed a greater threat so he got rid of them quickly. Miko was a maggot to him, so he blocked her off to intimidate her and to defend himself from all sides so she couldn't reach him at all. A classic sadistic villain trope.

Fair enough, that could easily by why he chose to try and force his portal on her (hehe), but I still believe, if he wanted to, he could have created the portal underneath her feet, so that she literally had no ground to stand on anymore. But who knows, someone could explain it away by saying the portal can only materialize in an open space with no solid or liquids that already occupy that space, so the area between her feet and the ground was pretty much nonexistent for the portal to open.

Mindmaster wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:What places give his weight?

Also, "frail"? Really?

It's on the interwebs.

According to the Armada video game's instruction booklet, Starscream (in his Armada-era body) has the following statistics:

Height: 19' 7" (15' 1" vehicle mode length)
Weight: 22,050 lbs
Thrust: 28,000 lbs
Vehicle Top Speed: Mach 2.7

Okay, let me stop you right there. That is a completely different version of Starscream. Just because the Armada game booklet gives readings on a Starscream, that doesn't mean that any and all Starscreams share the same statistics.

Okay, let me stop you right there. If you read the rest of my post instead of just selective reading to try and jump on something I said, you'd notice I said "I figured it wouldn't be far off, and would also dispose you're theory of them not making pot holes when they walked." Why that doesn't say to you that I understand their not the same one is beyond me. But I do assume they are probably similar. An F-16 ALSO weigh 20,000 pounds. What would your guess be? An F-16 ALSO weigh 20,000 pounds.

Sabrblade wrote:Had Soundwave repeated the same trick with Miko, she might have been more prepared for it and more ready to jump over it since Soundwave would be just repeating himself instead of diversifying his tactics to make himself less predictable and thereby trickier for Miko to defeat.

Hold on there bud, isn't Soundwave being predictable what the kids were COUNTING ON?

As much as I would love to continue responding to these posts, I'll leave it at this.

I understand it's made for kids, that was never in doubt. My point is that the kids were too much, and the Decepticons were once again made to look like bumbling idiots in the end. Why they can't let them have a more honorable end, I will never know. And before you all jump on that, I KNOW THE DECEPTICONS AREN'T HONORABLE. I would just prefer them to go out on their shield in a fair fight, rather than some ridiculous circumstance ending it.

1. How much do you think Starscream weighs?

2. It was episode 50, not 15 where they mentioned the bridge on the ship.

3. No matter how you slice it, Raf is still tiny, Miko is still anorexic, and unfortunately Jack is still twilight-ish. Lucky for you then, that you were drawn by a better artist.

To Pryme Striker and Sabrblade, thank you for the information and the debate.

To Mindvvipe and Switchfire thank you for the support.

Cyclonus43 wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:What places give his weight?

Also, "frail"? Really?

It's on the interwebs.

According to the Armada video game's instruction booklet, Starscream (in his Armada-era body) has the following statistics:

Height: 19' 7" (15' 1" vehicle mode length)
Weight: 22,050 lbs
Thrust: 28,000 lbs
Vehicle Top Speed: Mach 2.7

Okay, let me stop you right there. That is a completely different version of Starscream. Just because the Armada game booklet gives readings on a Starscream, that doesn't mean that any and all Starscreams share the same statistics.

Okay, let me stop you right there. If you read the rest of my post instead of just selective reading to try and jump on something I said, you'd notice I said "I figured it wouldn't be far off, and would also dispose you're theory of them not making pot holes when they walked." Why that doesn't say to you that I understand their not the same one is beyond me. But I do assume they are probably similar. An F-16 ALSO weigh 20,000 pounds. What would your guess be? An F-16 ALSO weigh 20,000 pounds.

The human children in G1 did amazing feats, Chip tore apart a floppy disc made of plastic the same way normal people would tear apart Kleenex. Daniel was mauled and then cast against a cave wall by Apeface, Spike went one to one with Rumble, heck in one episode the Decepticons use humans to play Baseball with.

Why do I bring this up? Well, if you can use Armade Starscream to prove a point about Prime Starscream, I can use G1 humans to prove to you that Raff alone could have moved Starscream's arm, heck if anything's wrong with that scene it's that their combined strength didn't allow them to beat Zombie Skyquake to death with the arm.

see how stupid of an argument that is? See why no other argument you bring after that no matter how valid it may be will just be laughed at and ignored?

One more thing, Armada Starscream is freaking huge, while Prime Starscream is frail and thin, then there is the fact that the Armada game isn't exactly something you can use for scale, not even for Armada characters Tidlewave is freaking huge in the game, as in Godzilla sized compared to TFs, while in the toon and comics he's just a bit larger than anybody else.

Cyclonus43 wrote:As much as I would love to continue responding to these posts, I'll leave it at this.

I understand it's made for kids, that was never in doubt. My point is that the kids were too much, and the Decepticons were once again made to look like bumbling idiots in the end. Why they can't let them have a more honorable end, I will never know. And before you all jump on that, I KNOW THE DECEPTICONS AREN'T HONORABLE. I would just prefer them to go out on their shield in a fair fight, rather than some ridiculous circumstance ending it.

1. How much do you think Starscream weighs?

2. It was episode 50, not 15 where they mentioned the bridge on the ship.

3. No matter how you slice it, Raf is still tiny, Miko is still anorexic, and unfortunately Jack is still twilight-ish. Lucky for then that you were drawn by a better artist.

To Pryme Striker and Sabrblade, thank you for the information and the debate.

To Mindvvipe and Switchfire thank you for the support.

Come on I don't get any love for my earlier posts? Lol

And I will add this about the arm moving thing, when I was 16 Me and my brother who was 13 at the time were able to move a car parked in neutral with difficulty, which would probably weigh maybe 2,000 pounds which is probably as much as that arm would weigh if you go by Armada Starscream build most o the weight would be on the chest, with the arms have little weight. It wouldn't be that illogical to think that 3 teens wouldn't be able move a round arm, of course we haven't seen how strong Jack is either. For all that we know he could he at the gym 5 days a week and could push that arm by himself. Now take this with a grain of salt as it is the Internet and for all you know I could be lieing (which I am not).

Another thing about Starscreams weight is it possible that in a show that features devices capable of creating anything from raw material and essentially teleporters( space and ground bridge) would it be possible that Starscream only needs the frame for the jet to function, this is a serious question and not a smart a$$ remark.

viruscarnage wrote:Come on I don't get any love for my earlier posts? Lol

Okay, maybe a little

And I will add this about the arm moving thing, when I was 16 Me and my brother who was 13 at the time were able to move a car parked in neutral with difficulty, which would probably weigh maybe 2,000 pounds which is probably as much as that arm would weigh if you go by Armada Starscream build most o the weight would be on the chest, with the arms have little weight. It wouldn't be that illogical to think that 3 teens wouldn't be able move a round arm, of course we haven't seen how strong Jack is either. For all that we know he could he at the gym 5 days a week and could push that arm by himself. Now take this with a grain of salt as it is the Internet and for all you know I could be lieing (which I am not).

Though round, Starscreams arm was not in neutral or ON WHEELS Hell, I've pushed an Escalade in neutral before....no big deal. But it was in neutral on wheels.

Another thing about Starscreams weight is it possible that in a show that features devices capable of creating anything from raw material and essentially teleporters( space and ground bridge) would it be possible that Starscream only needs the frame for the jet to function, this is a serious question and not a smart a$$ remark.

I would still think he would need the components of an F-16 to fly. No matter how futuristic, there are limits to what earth has created. Though I agree he does appear smaller, I only had that listing to go by and the weight of an F-16.