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RAR wrote:How would you fine feather folk refer to something like a "Running Change" for example adding the slots in the fists of a 1980's "Seeker".

Usually a Running Change is defined as a change observed during a toy's main release window, usually within a year to a year-and-a-half. That indicates a change during, or between production runs, hence the name. CW Motormaster is a good example, with his Wave 4 re-release having changed hip ratchets that carried over into all later releases. As you can probably guess, Running Changes can be Retools or mold-tweaks, but mere deco changes have also been observed.

william-james88 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

SillySpringer wrote:Parts-sharers? I mean, there's no better name for it.

True, but... aside from Shared Engineering, all terms imply a direct physical relation, while Blurr and Chromedome do not have one, just an indirect one with the parts. That's my main sticking point.

Technically dont they share as many parts as Offroad and Skydive and every other deluxe combiner do?

True, but the shared transformation (stretching the term for the Aerialbots I admit) is the main giveaway of the CW figures being pretools. Blurr and Chromedome only share leg transformation, as do Highbrow and Scourge, but that's not really saying much...

Being a stickler for definitions sucks, doesn't it?

I wont be too held up. Technically we have had all this since G1 with a ton of product being very similar to oneanother but having different molding. This is that again but in a new way due to the augmented amount of parts.

And anyone who collectd Marvel Legends, Gi Joe or HeMan can attest that different toys sharing parts is a common practice that doesnt detter the idiosyncratic nature of each release.

william-james88 wrote:And anyone who collectd Marvel Legends, Gi Joe or HeMan can attest that different toys sharing parts is a common practice that doesnt detter the idiosyncratic nature of each release.

yep

Davie L Arts wrote:So far I haven't seen too many decepticons that i like from TR. The only one I'm truly interested in is sixshot, but i think ocatane might be interesting. Yes, i know that wolfwire is a great mold, but have a strict policy of only combiner limbs and cars for decepticon deluxes.

Astrotrain is pretty cool.

william-james88 wrote:I wont be too held up. Technically we have had all this since G1 with a ton of product being very similar to oneanother but having different molding. This is that again but in a new way due to the augmented amount of parts.

And anyone who collectd Marvel Legends, Gi Joe or HeMan can attest that different toys sharing parts is a common practice that doesnt detter the idiosyncratic nature of each release.

It is relevant for kitbashers who are paint averse.

A couple of Brainstorms, Blurr, and future uses of that tooling could be useful for creating new customs.

I think the first really convenient use of that I saw was Energon Rodimus and Energon Roadblock to make G2 Hero Prime with very little paint.

But those were just decos. With different tooling, you can get entirely different bots.

I have a feeling Delta Magnus may be a mixed tooling of PM Prime and Magnus.

Likewise, I think Skylynx may have used bits of Cyclonus and Silverbolt with new pieces.

I still think some mix of TAV Grimlock and FOC with about 1/3rd new pieces and some extra bulk for the belly/plane mode and added articulation could be Snapdragon.

I think when molds were traditionally cast, you probably had more limits on this kind of thing. I assume they use 3D CAD software to develop molds now, which would also account for some rereleases once thought impossible if they can scan, correct, and generate new molds. I kind of suspect some of the better KOs we've seen in recent years probably come from moving from recasting to molds made from 3D scans of parts.

RAR wrote:I'm not sure Astrotrain/Sentinel Prime even count as a Re-tool/pre-tool when the only difference aside from colour is the head.

Assuming the two heads share a mold sprue and the unused one was blocked off during each production run, this is the textbook definition of a pretool.

Stuartmaximus wrote:Then there's remold(but i think one or more than one of the above definitions basically covers that

Remold is just a broad term for various forms of retools.

RAR wrote:How would you fine feather folk refer to something like a "Running Change" for example adding the slots in the fists of a 1980's "Seeker".

Assuming it's a mold alteration and not just a change in paint apps, that may be the truest definition of a retool, a permanent alternation to the tooling of the mold, or at least the addition of a new mold plate that definitely wasn't there before and replaces a part in most or all future uses of the mold.

RAR wrote:A "Redecoration" might also apply to a toy that is more or less the same colour but they change the spray mask or stickers but keep the basic colouring - example being G1 & G2 Jazz.

That IS a repaint.

Stuartmaximus wrote:

SillySpringer wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

SillySpringer wrote:Parts-sharers? I mean, there's no better name for it.

True, but... aside from Shared Engineering, all terms imply a direct physical relation, while Blurr and Chromedome do not have one, just an indirect one with the parts. That's my main sticking point.

Part-thieves?

How about part-formers

Term already taken. That refers to Transformers that must be somewhat taken apart to transform.

King Kuuga wrote:

RAR wrote:I'm not sure Astrotrain/Sentinel Prime even count as a Re-tool/pre-tool when the only difference aside from colour is the head.

Assuming the two heads share a mold sprue and the unused one was blocked off during each production run, this is the textbook definition of a pretool.

This is where it might get complicated though - unlike normal figures, the head is a separate piece. So essentially, saying it's a pretool/retool would be like saying, say... if Starscream was a redeco of Thundercracker but came with new weapons and/or accessories. So would you consider these two retools/pretools of each other rather than just repaints?

Complicating matters even further is that the head on Astrotrain isn't new - it's the same headmaster on Sentinel, just with a different backpack (the face).



So it becomes even more of a stretch to say Astrotrain and Sentinel Prime are retools/pretools of each other.

Skullcruncher likes swimming with sharks. (I need Gnaw....now!)



I like how I can pose Skullcruncher like he is swimming stealthily through the waters...

[quote="Agamemnon]
I like how I can pose Skullcruncher like he is swimming stealthily through the waters...[/quote]
This is pretty cool, didn't even think to pose him like that

The bodies TR Sentinel Prime and TR Astrotrian are redecos. Their titan masters are pretools. That's how I understand it. So overall when talking about the complete figures I suppose they could be called pretools.

I find calling something a remold/repaint (read remold slash repaint) annoying because if something is a retool or pretool the redeco is automatically implied. Most of the time. I think. So for simplicity's sake I prefer the single inclusive word.

As for parts sharing, if we're using the term shared engineering for figures that share engineering then why not just call parts sharing parts sharing? I find that easy to understand.

Bradimus wrote:As for parts sharing, if we're using the term shared engineering for figures that share engineering then why not just call parts sharing parts sharing? I find that easy to understand.

I concur. Does there really have to be a noun term to refer to those who share parts? I mean, instead of saying "Blurr and Chromedome are part-partners," why not just say "Blurr and Chromedome have shared parts" or simply "Blurr and Chromedome share parts"?

Kurona wrote:

King Kuuga wrote:

RAR wrote:I'm not sure Astrotrain/Sentinel Prime even count as a Re-tool/pre-tool when the only difference aside from colour is the head.

Assuming the two heads share a mold sprue and the unused one was blocked off during each production run, this is the textbook definition of a pretool.

This is where it might get complicated though - unlike normal figures, the head is a separate piece. So essentially, saying it's a pretool/retool would be like saying, say... if Starscream was a redeco of Thundercracker but came with new weapons and/or accessories. So would you consider these two retools/pretools of each other rather than just repaints?

Complicating matters even further is that the head on Astrotrain isn't new - it's the same headmaster on Sentinel, just with a different backpack (the face).



So it becomes even more of a stretch to say Astrotrain and Sentinel Prime are retools/pretools of each other.

Wait. So any appropriately sized head with a rear mounted screw and an even split down the side could be repurposed as a head, right?

Co-tool/cotool?

A cooperative tooling. Tooling that was designed in conjunction with one another.

Kurona wrote:-Cue mandatory WJ88 responding to this post about how much he loves Fracture-

Do you own Fracture Kurona? I dont think you do, because if you did you would do that talk for me

As for the astrotrain and sentinel debate, it was a misunderstanding I started. Since the heads are seperate toys, lets just forget it and just see them as the same main mold in different decos. The reason I brought them up is because they were a perfect example of it being clear that the first release of that mold was not of the character it was first designed for. Its clearly Astrotrain.

And I brought that up because it means the idea of the "re"prefix is kinda dead now. "re"tool or "re"deco assumes that there is a first, an initial toy that is changed. And in the past, it was the first release. Like the Beast Hunters prime toys being retools of the previously released toys. But thats all changed now, most of the toys coming out were part of a long plan and reshuffled around. Hell, Alpha Trion was supposed to come out during Combiner Wars (not as a combiner though) but was reshuffled into this line with new alt modes. Its more that now Hasbro has these designs and they try to maximise the transformations and parts to make the most of it while still providing variety and a ton of product. Thats pretty much it.

Kurona wrote:

King Kuuga wrote:

RAR wrote:I'm not sure Astrotrain/Sentinel Prime even count as a Re-tool/pre-tool when the only difference aside from colour is the head.

Assuming the two heads share a mold sprue and the unused one was blocked off during each production run, this is the textbook definition of a pretool.

This is where it might get complicated though - unlike normal figures, the head is a separate piece. So essentially, saying it's a pretool/retool would be like saying, say... if Starscream was a redeco of Thundercracker but came with new weapons and/or accessories. So would you consider these two retools/pretools of each other rather than just repaints?

Complicating matters even further is that the head on Astrotrain isn't new - it's the same headmaster on Sentinel, just with a different backpack (the face).



So it becomes even more of a stretch to say Astrotrain and Sentinel Prime are retools/pretools of each other.

I'm pretty sure Titan Masters are gang molded with their corresponding bodies, so when taken at face value, the two faceplate options on the mold sprue constitute a pretool of the mold as a whole. Retools and pretools DO NOT have to be extensive and frequently aren't, so if that's your reservation for calling it a retool, rest assured it qualifies.

As for your Starscream example, let's take the recent Leader Class seekers. We received all 3, but only Starscream came with the crown. I believe (I don't own any of them) that they all had room for the crown on their heads, which suggests that it was included in the mold all along but either thrown out or blocked off for TC and Skywarp. This would not constitute a retool. If Starscream received all-new weapons that were not known to belong to any other figure, and the weapons were not part of the initial mold sprue, this could be considered a retool or new parts. I admit I'm a little sketchy on the exact classification of such a thing.


I love that picture of Cybershark and Skullsmasher.

william-james88 wrote:Hell, Alpha Trion was supposed to come out during Combiner Wars (not as a combiner though) but was reshuffled into this line with new alt modes.

Source on this info?

Y'know, I wonder how much some of the TR figures transformations would change if they weren't designed to be headmasters...

King Kuuga wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Hell, Alpha Trion was supposed to come out during Combiner Wars (not as a combiner though) but was reshuffled into this line with new alt modes.

Source on this info?

It was in a designer interview a few weeks ago - I really think we need a go-to thread for Designer Desk Videos/ Takara Staff interviews and Designer desk videos on the Transformers channel.

Maximal Rainmaker wrote:Y'know, I wonder how much some of the TR figures transformations would change if they weren't designed to be headmasters...

Same could be asked about ANY figure that has a gimmick (aside from the ability to transform)

william-james88 wrote:

Kurona wrote:-Cue mandatory WJ88 responding to this post about how much he loves Fracture-

Do you own Fracture Kurona? I dont think you do, because if you did you would do that talk for me

As for the astrotrain and sentinel debate, it was a misunderstanding I started. Since the heads are seperate toys, lets just forget it and just see them as the same main mold in different decos. The reason I brought them up is because they were a perfect example of it being clear that the first release of that mold was not of the character it was first designed for. Its clearly Astrotrain.

And I brought that up because it means the idea of the "re"prefix is kinda dead now. "re"tool or "re"deco assumes that there is a first, an initial toy that is changed. And in the past, it was the first release. Like the Beast Hunters prime toys being retools of the previously released toys. But thats all changed now, most of the toys coming out were part of a long plan and reshuffled around. Hell, Alpha Trion was supposed to come out during Combiner Wars (not as a combiner though) but was reshuffled into this line with new alt modes. Its more that now Hasbro has these designs and they try to maximise the transformations and parts to make the most of it while still providing variety and a ton of product. Thats pretty much it.

Eeeeh, the whole re-prefix is still relevant a little bit. We know, for instance, that Hasbro never planned to do Computron until late in the game so his components of course can't be pretooled. Afterbreaker and Scrounge's new heads and Strafe's new... everything are all retools after the fact. The same story likely applies to Liokaiser's five new heads (and one new top half of a head?) as well.
And for perhaps a more obvious example, the unique Sweep head in Cyclonus' Armada.
Non-pre-planned retools seem a rarity these days but I don't think they're completely dead.

Kurona wrote:Eeeeh, the whole re-prefix is still relevant a little bit. We know, for instance, that Hasbro never planned to do Computron until late in the game so his components of course can't be pretooled. Afterbreaker and Scrounge's new heads and Strafe's new... everything are all retools after the fact. The same story likely applies to Liokaiser's five new heads (and one new top half of a head?) as well.
And for perhaps a more obvious example, the unique Sweep head in Cyclonus' Armada.
Non-pre-planned retools seem a rarity these days but I don't think they're completely dead.

I didnt mean to drop it completely, but to definitely drop it when talking about Asrotrain/Sentinel Soundwave/Blaster Optimus/Octane, and most definitely cases like Alpha Trion/Braodside and Scourge/Highbrow.

Strafe most definitely is a retool, and from what Hasbro said it seems that Aterburner was too.

And here is the reference for Alpha Trion (and Galvatron) being designed much before the TR line was thought up:

http://www.allspark.com/2016/08/emilian ... tf-nation/

It states that Apha Trion was to be part of Combiner Wars.

More pics! This time, I have to praise Weirdwolf (or Wolfwire or whatever. From here I'll just use WW so pick the one you want to hear in your head. Also, I look like Kevin Smith, so imagine he is saying all of this....in a British accent...no I'm not British, why do you ask?) While WW's articulation could be a bit better (many of the joints have limitations of movement) there is still a lot of possibilities. I snapped a couple quick ones.


"Sometimes when I run, my toes stay up in the air. I wonder if that is a habit left over from my marching band days."


"A squirrel is going to pop up in front of me any second. I just know it!"


"Be vewy vewy quiet. I'm hunting petro-rabbits"



"Why yes, my favorite Voltron lion is Yellow Lion. How did you know?"

Maximal Rainmaker wrote:Y'know, I wonder how much some of the TR figures transformations would change if they weren't designed to be headmasters...

In a way, this has been my biggest complaint. Galvatron,s mask thing folds right down into a massive cavity in his chest. A bigger hinge could have flipped the whole head down.

Scourge is the same way backwards. He could have flipped his noggin backwards into his cockpit a la RID Wedge. The only difference, is that Scourge's head would be upside down, but If it were on a ball joint that could tip back 90*, we could even orient his head to be his own pilot.

Skullcruncher does actually need his head gone, but again there s a massive chest cavity. A flip over hinge into the cockpit in his back solves that issue very easily.

And with Sentienl I am wondering of the entire head assembly couldnt be on the same spring. If not, then you flip his head backwards too, the only catch is you will have to swivel the eings out of the way first to do it.

Oh, I forgot Blurr. But then again, if he didnt have the Headmadters legs making his noggin so thivk, he could probably leave his head where it is and attach the shield around it!

Hardhead... Is the only one I don't have an answer for. There probably is one... But I don't know what it is.

I am glad the G1 guys got their Headmasters, dont get me wrong. They have been wanting these for a long time. And the action figure/base/playset/vehicles concept is great. Wheelie is a good figure, and fits well into the play pattern. This is a great venue to see the Throttlebots in because they are "new" and underdone characters.

But to me, these are beautifully detailed, inguinesly engineered Figures... Who are getting away with partsforming the head when their are clear and practical alternatives. It feels like cheating unneccesarily, and I would gladly have given up the Headmaster gimmick to perfect figures like Blurr and Galvatron.

Oh, and speaking of Throttlebots, Chase gave me an idea for next year's SDCC:

Headmaster Rescue Bots with the Headmasters as the Burns family. Throw in some Master vehicles to homage the original accesory packs. Its just too bad we dont have any of the right vehicles.

No seperate head means no cockpit so that extra unused space could hae come into play for Blurr. However, he really seems designed to have been a headmaster al along unlike Galvatron. And I dont think Hardhead or the other headmasters would have been well ecieved by us if they werent headmasters.

william-james88 wrote:No seperate head means no cockpit so that extra unused space could hae come into play for Blurr. However, he really seems designed to have been a headmaster al along unlike Galvatron. And I dont think Hardhead or the other headmasters would have been well ecieved by us if they werent headmasters.

And you probably arent wrong. I think we would have liked them and bought them, Skullcruncher and Hardhead are still good/great figures, but there would have been a lot of "Why isnt he a headmaster" just as there always has been every time an homage came out.

I looked at Blurr again, one would have to notch out the back of the shield, but it would clear.