Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Gauntlet101010]

Maybe these clarifications will help strengthen my arguments, idk...
1. SIEGE Ratchet and Ironhide are close enough as-is that unless they had more to offer (like accessibiliy or extra features) than just being Earth mode versions, I don't see Earth mode versions having as much appeal; they'd have the same problem as ER Megatron.

Earth modes Ratchet and ironhide wouldn't have more to offer to you. To me Cybertronian modes for those guys are a deal breaker. Ditto the Siege Dasturns. Ditto the main Seekers. They are all great toys, but not what I'm looking for. If all of those guys got new moulds (with megatron to boot) then I don't see why Ratchet would be any different.

I honestly expected redecos for the Dasturns. With OP I expected a remoulded Sige, but with a trailer. But Hasbro really went the extra mile and made entirely new moulds for all of them. I don't see why you're so convinced think wouldn't also do so for main cast members Ironhide and Ratchet.

2. G1 has such a bloody huge cast even just in terms of show characters. There's a fair few who've yet to receive better modern toys (or modern toys period), and most of them would be Deluxes and Voyagers. Especially since thanks to the stupid Micromasters the remaining Minibots would have to be height-engineered Deluxes. So I don't know how worth it it would be to have Ratchet and Ironhide taking up slots.
Don't get me wrong, earth-mode versions of them with detachable battle/repair platforms to sweeten the deal would be cool... But there's so many still to do that I don't know if I want that new Ratchet and Ironhide badly enough to give up someone else for it.

I mean, you're not wrong. There's a lot of characters who would do well getting updates. Like Galvatron and Cyclonus . But we've gotten/are getting new versions of Siege guys already. Guys who, I think, could have waited for a time. So, again, it seems to boil down to you liking Siege Ironhide and Ratchet and now wanting to replace them. And that's fair enough, but it make as much sense for them to replace IH and Ratchet as it does to replace the Dasturns.

[Tuned Agent]

Earth modes Ratchet and ironhide wouldn't have more to offer to you. To me Cybertronian modes for those guys are a deal breaker. Ditto the Siege Dasturns. Ditto the main Seekers. They are all great toys, but not what I'm looking for. If all of those guys got new moulds (with megatron to boot) then I don't see why Ratchet would be any different.

I honestly expected redecos for the Dasturns. With OP I expected a remoulded Sige, but with a trailer. But Hasbro really went the extra mile and made entirely new moulds for all of them. I don't see why you're so convinced think wouldn't also do so for main cast members Ironhide and Ratchet.

Just a quick correction, but ER Optimus isn't an entirely new mold, he shares at least his head, shins and feet with Siege Optimus. ER Megatron is also almost certainly a retool of the Siege mold, but I'm not sure if you were counting him among the new molds.

[Gauntlet101010]

They're new enough to count in my book. OP is way more than what I expected - Siege OP with remoulded back kibble.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Maybe these clarifications will help strengthen my arguments, idk...
1. SIEGE Ratchet and Ironhide are close enough as-is that unless they had more to offer (like accessibiliy or extra features) than just being Earth mode versions, I don't see Earth mode versions having as much appeal; they'd have the same problem as ER Megatron.

Earth modes Ratchet and ironhide wouldn't have more to offer to you. To me Cybertronian modes for those guys are a deal breaker. Ditto the Siege Dasturns. Ditto the main Seekers. They are all great toys, but not what I'm looking for. If all of those guys got new moulds (with megatron to boot) then I don't see why Ratchet would be any different.

Here's the thing: Ratchet and Ironhide's cybertronian altmodes aren't lawyer-friendly Oneboxes, but they're still vans that could pass as "Earth van with serial numbers filed off" in a pinch. They're not a drastic difference like tetrajet vs. F-15 (and it's not like Animated where the Cybertron-mode figures had corresponding Cybertronian robot modes). It's notable that all the other re-dos in Earthrise (except Megatron, who just replaces the sword with a spear) offer a significant extra beyond the Earth mode. For Optimus, it's being a Leader-class figure with a removable Matrix, a better-looking gun, and a trailer. For Smokescreen, it's accessibility plus the racing add-ons the SIEGE/Selects version lacked.

I honestly expected redecos for the Dasturns. With OP I expected a remoulded Sige, but with a trailer. But Hasbro really went the extra mile and made entirely new moulds for all of them.

Sorry buddy, but you are...
WRONG!
Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Optimus IS "(heavily) remolded SIEGE but with a trailer".
Megatron is also a remolded SIEGE figure, and with less new parts than Optimus.
They may have new parts, but they are absolutely NOT "entirely new". It's a Dark Crumplezone situation.
Only the Datsun and Seeker molds are entirely new.

I don't see why you're so convinced think wouldn't also do so for main cast members Ironhide and Ratchet.

1. Ratchet and Ironhide aren't as main cast as Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron. Even Aaron Archer rehashed those three.
2. There's the matter of lesser need.
3. There's the fact that SIEGE Ratchet and Ironhide, with their proper hands and their size and their being vans and their transformation working properly out of the box, are also enough of an improvement on the mediocre Universe mold to satisfy most of us and make us need more than just a definite Earth mode to get them again.
4. It's a question for me of whether they should do so for Ratchet and Ironhide. I have mixed feelings.

2. G1 has such a bloody huge cast even just in terms of show characters. There's a fair few who've yet to receive better modern toys (or modern toys period), and most of them would be Deluxes and Voyagers. Especially since thanks to the stupid Micromasters the remaining Minibots would have to be height-engineered Deluxes. So I don't know how worth it it would be to have Ratchet and Ironhide taking up slots.

I mean, you're not wrong. There's a lot of characters who would do well getting updates. Like Galvatron and Cyclonus

IMO we got a good Galvatron update in TR... And I still think they could get away with reissuing the Universe Cyclonus mold again because he was such a tall boy; he's only half a head shorter than a SIEGE Seeker. But I wouldn't mind a new Cyclonus.

But we've gotten/are getting new versions of Siege guys already. Guys who, I think, could have waited for a time.

Guys who, with the exception of Megatron (who feels like a bit of a waste), either have a drastic difference between their Earth and Cybertronian modes or offer something extra beyond just that Earth mode. And one of them, Optimus, is filling a Leader slot this time around because of the extras he brings to the table rather than tying up a Voyager slot.

So, again, it seems to boil down to you liking Siege Ironhide and Ratchet and now wanting to replace them.

Please read this again:

Don't get me wrong, earth-mode versions of them with detachable battle/repair platforms to sweeten the deal would be cool... But there's so many still to do that I don't know if I want that new Ratchet and Ironhide badly enough to give up someone else for it.

I do want Earth Mode versions, even already having the SIEGE versions (although for preference I want them to offer a bit more than just the earth mode, especially since the robot mode wouldn't be too different).

But.

Having already gotten decent Ratchet and Ironhide toys during SIEGE, and with them already passing for myself and most others, I don't want Earth mode versions at the expense of other characters I want - even if they have extras to sweeten the deal.

By the way, Earth-mode versions wouldn't be replacements for me, they'd be compliments.

[Gauntlet101010]

Optimus IS "(heavily) remolded SIEGE but with a trailer

There's enough new in him to count. If there's just as much new in a Ratchet I'd be fine with that too. This is just splitting hairs. I mean his head and shins are reused. That's ... not a lot of reuse there.

But there's so many still to do that I don't know if I want that new Ratchet and Ironhide

I've bolded the important part of what you just said over there.

It doesn't sound as if you're actually disagreeing with the possibility of there being an Earth mode Ratchet and Ironhide anymore, just that you don't, personally, want there to be. Which is fair enough, but that wasn't exactly the point. If we're just talking about what we want out of the line, I guess I don't see what the argument is.

Edit: I'm arguing that it's entirely possible for an Earth mode IH and ratchet to happen. Not that you, personally, should get one. Right now I'm not sure what you're arguing. I get that you don't want one. That's not what I'm disputing.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Optimus IS "(heavily) remolded SIEGE but with a trailer

There's enough new in him to count. If there's just as much new in a Ratchet I'd be fine with that too. This is just splitting hairs. I mean his head and shins are reused. That's ... not a lot of reuse there.

It's still not "entirely" new And there's substantially less new in Megatron.

But there's so many still to do that I don't know if I want that new Ratchet and Ironhide

I've bolded the important part of what you just said over there.

It doesn't sound as if you're actually disagreeing with the possibility of there being an Earth mode Ratchet and Ironhide anymore, just that you don't, personally, want there to be. Which is fair enough, but that wasn't exactly the point. If we're just talking about what we want out of the line, I guess I don't see what the argument is.

I was trying to make a case to you for why they shouldn't, or at least should defer it. I did argue against the possibility here:

Here's the thing: Ratchet and Ironhide's cybertronian altmodes aren't lawyer-friendly Oneboxes, but they're still vans that could pass as "Earth van with serial numbers filed off" in a pinch. They're not a drastic difference like tetrajet vs. F-15 (and it's not like Animated where the Cybertron-mode figures had corresponding Cybertronian robot modes). It's notable that all the other re-dos in Earthrise (except Megatron, who just replaces the sword with a spear and who many people have voiced dissatisfaction with) offer a significant extra beyond the Earth mode. For Optimus, it's being a Leader-class figure with a removable Matrix, a better-looking gun, and a trailer. For Smokescreen, it's accessibility plus the racing add-ons the SIEGE/Selects version lacked.

And here:

1. Ratchet and Ironhide aren't as main cast as Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron. Even Aaron Archer rehashed those three.
2. There's the matter of lesser need for Earth modes for them.
3. There's the fact that SIEGE Ratchet and Ironhide, with their proper hands and their size and their being vans and their transformation working properly out of the box, are also enough of an improvement on the mediocre Universe mold to satisfy most of us and make us need more than just a definite Earth mode to get them again.

Additions in blue.

To condense:
* SIEGE Ratchet are good toys and close as-is even with their technically Cybertronian altmodes, so it would take more than the Earth mode itself to sway a lot of people; that affects demand
* Ratchet and Ironhide aren't Warden's special rehash babies the way Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron are

[Gauntlet101010]

It's still not "entirely" new And there's substantially less new in Megatron.

And your point is ... ? That I'm wrong about them being entirely new so it discounts an Earth mode Ratchet ... how? Poking at a single word in my argument is hardly defeating my point here. My point stands: we're getting a new Prime and Megatron. If they're 90% new instead of 100% new it makes no difference to my point.

Ratchet and Ironhide's cybertronian altmodes aren't lawyer-friendly Oneboxes ... people have voiced dissatisfaction (altmodes) ...

I just don't see this as a valid point when we're getting new Dasturns or a new Astrotrain, or a new Megatron or Prime or Arcee, or Springer ... people were happy with those toys too until there were new options.

You don't want a new Ratchet. But that's just you, man.

. Ratchet and Ironhide aren't as main cast as Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron. Even Aaron Archer rehashed those three.

What and Prowl, Smokescreen, or Bluestreak? They've made an all-new Arcee too when we recently got a decent version of her. Ditto Chromia.

* SIEGE Ratchet are good toys and close as-is even with their technically Cybertronian altmodes, so it would take more than the Earth mode itself to sway a lot of people; that affects demand

I think you should stick to speaking for yourself. Yes, they are good molds. Buuuuuut Hasbro may not care that they already made a good mold very recently and make a new version anyway.

* Ratchet and Ironhide aren't Warden's special rehash babies the way Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron are

As opposed to the Dasturns and Shockwave and Astrotrain and Skylynx, and Jetfire and every single other character they milk incessantly?

I still don't see what your point is supposed to be. Hasbro has demonstrated a toy in Siege can be remade for Earthrise. Quibble if it's "entirely new" or not, it doesn't change the point at all. I stand by my statement that I'll wait for a voyager Earth mode Ratchet and IH. I think I just may get it, eventually.

What are you arguing about?

[Flashwave]

@Zeldatheswordsman

You are hacking at semantics to prove a point that does not exist. Optimus Prime may have reused a cad file or two, but thats a head from a newly made tooling. The transformation is entirely different. There is not a part of him that is a straight up borrow from Siege. Nothing. The head and shins are only similar because they are both working from the same source material.

Megatron? Sure. That is a proper example of a reshell or retool. But not Optimus Prime.

And to buimd on my post earlier: Genrations is NOT a Collector oriented line. It is a main series toyline designed to appeal to kids and adults evenly. If a toy appeals to the gimmick then thats the way they are going.

"Ironhide and Ratchet are not main series character". Uh... Ratchet has been in every series since the 2007 Movie. Ironhide has been slightly less featured but is still a well known character and easily identified by the casuals. Thats why characters get rehashed.

[Ironhidensh]

Since I skipped the seige versions, I very much want a new Ironhide and Ratchet.

[Rodimus Prime]

Things are getting a bit testy, so I'm gonna ask nicely: respect each other's opinions even if you don't agree, and let cooler heads prevail.

I did get Ratchet, Ironhide and Crosshairs, because I love the mold, especially in vehicle mode. But I would also love to see Ratchet and Ironhide get actual Earth modes, preferably an ambulance and a van, respectively.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

@Zeldatheswordsman

You are hacking at semantics to prove a point that does not exist. Optimus Prime may have reused a cad file or two, but thats a head from a newly made tooling. The transformation is entirely different. There is not a part of him that is a straight up borrow from Siege. Nothing. The head and shins are only similar because they are both working from the same source material.

Really? O.O
Everything I had read about him said that the parts were straight-up borrows. Huh.
And I was hacking at semantics because semantics themselves are kind of a thing for me. My brain was going "Must correct apparent wrong use of 'entirely'"

Re: Ratchet and Ironhide, I said that they aren't as main cast as Optimus, Starscream, and Megatron. By which I meant, they're still main cast, but they aren't as favored for rehash-spamming as those three are. When it comes to rehash quantity, Ratchet and Ironhide are the "shake" side, those three are the "pour" side.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

@Zeldatheswordsman

You are hacking at semantics to prove a point that does not exist. Optimus Prime may have reused a cad file or two, but thats a head from a newly made tooling. The transformation is entirely different. There is not a part of him that is a straight up borrow from Siege. Nothing. The head and shins are only similar because they are both working from the same source material.

Really? O.O
Everything I had read about him said that the parts were straight-up borrows. Huh.
And I was hacking at semantics because semantics themselves are kind of a thing for me. My brain was going "Must correct apparent wrong use of 'entirely'

To be exact, Optimus Prime seemingly borrows the shins and the feet, with the rest being all new. Megatron borrows the arms (but not the fists), thighs, feet and most of the transformation, which is why some new parts look so similar to the Siege original. To be complete, Bombshock and Growl reuse parts of Topshot and Flak, those parts are even mixed and matched. That approach is the same used for Siege Chromia with parts of Moonracer/Novastar.
That doesn't make them retools in the strict sense of "descended" from the figures they reuse parts from, that should be more reserved for the likes of Hoist into Trailbreaker, or even Ultra Magnus into Galaxy Convoy Galaxy Upgrade Optimus Prime. I guess it mostly depends on what's used as a base: the figure or the parts

[Rtron]

I want vanette Ratchet & Ironhide too! Not as much as I want a goddamn Huffer, who's never had a mold of his own in a Generations toyline. But I still want them.

[Sentinel_Primal]

I want vanette Ratchet & Ironhide too! Not as much as I want a goddamn Huffer, who's never had a mold of his own in a Generations toyline. But I still want them.

Huffer would be fun. Personally though, I'm hoping we get some of the Micromaster playsets like Overload and Erector

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

I want vanette Ratchet & Ironhide too! Not as much as I want a goddamn Huffer, who's never had a mold of his own in a Generations toyline. But I still want them.

I want them too, they'd be brilliant. But the SIEGE ones are good representations already, so I can be patient.

Agreed about Huffer. And this would be a good line to do him in:

He could come with a miniature of Hoist to ride inside him

Also want to see Gears. They could include a trailer of potatoes, or maybe an elephant.

[Ironhidensh]

I found earthrise deluxe at walmart this morning. I had to be there for work,however, if you dont, please stay the **** home. Toys can wait till this covid **** blows over. You may want to start looking online though.

[sol magnus]

For Optimus, it's being a Leader-class figure with a removable Matrix, a better-looking gun, and a trailer.

I beg to differ on the gun. I'm switching out that bazooka with Siege's.

[aronjlove]

For Optimus, it's being a Leader-class figure with a removable Matrix, a better-looking gun, and a trailer.

I beg to differ on the gun. I'm switching out that bazooka with Siege's.

I like the way it folds for storage but the gun that came with my ER Prime has too big of an opening on the front, larger than 5mm, and the siege effects do not fit right.

[adamage1]

Just a note that the Generations line—particularly Combiner Wars-forward—is absolutely targeted at collectors who grew up with the original cartoon series and toyline. It may appeal to kids, but lines like Cyberverse are truly targeted at kids. I would be willing to bet at least 70–80% of the sales of the Generations line, especially WFC Siege and Earthrise, comes directly from age 35+ collectors.

[AcademyofDrX]

It's definitely not that many, but the last time I posted actual data about that, I got into a lot of arguments.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

adamage1, I highly doubt your figures there. I've said it before and I'll say again: if the majority of the sales of the throwback line came from adult collectors, then it would still be a line of nothing but Legends, Deluxe, and Voyager figures and new molds would be sparse.

[LinaNui]

https://www.amazon.com/Tra-Gen-Battle-M ... 179&sr=8-2

Looks like ER Smashdown is on Amazon USA for retail. Grab them fast! Only posting since I know people love this figure and wanted to get lots.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

So, I got the first wave of the Deluxe-class. I really like Hoist, Cliffjumper, and Wheeljack. But the one I was looking forward to the most... was Ironworks!

And here's his little buddy's here to help get him out of the package!


He's got the box-cutter all set.


He's a strong little fellow!


Free from his cardboard prison.


"Thanks, little buddy!"

[Cobotron]

FREEEEEEEEDOM!!!!

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

For Optimus, it's being a Leader-class figure with a removable Matrix, a better-looking gun, and a trailer.

I beg to differ on the gun. I'm switching out that bazooka with Siege's.

I don't like the SIEGE version's gun. It has that big ugly bulge in the middle, and while I can tolerate hollow sides they don't look quite as good.

Mind you, Combiner Wars Optimus' rifle is better-looking than either.