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Note: What I'm about say contains some information originating from Ask Vector Prime. Apologies in advance to those who dislike the format of that fiction.

The notion of Brainstorm's briefcase having created the other universes of the multiverse is authorial intent, coming from the author rather than from anything he's actually written into his comic stories, so it's presently only pseudocanonical.

However, when Vector Prime was questioned about this notion, he gave the follow answer (which James Roberts contributed to):

To the best of my knowledge, when Perceptor tampered with the paradox locks on Brainstorm's time machine, it had a profound impact on the celestial mechanics... of that particular universe. Prior to its use, that reality was deterministic in nature. There were no offshoot realities. Now, though, that no longer appears to be the case.

I will offer a caveat, though, which is that if that event DID spawn the Multiverse, it did so with the Multiverse fully formed... meaning that, there is no philosophical way to know if the Multiverse, and my memories of it, and indeed your memories of your own existence, came into being the instant Perceptor's clumsy fumblings altered the causality constant of that portion of the universe.

In other words, we can say for certain that the briefcase did affect the universe of IDW's G1 comics, but it isn't concisely affirmative to tell if the multiverse's origins could be attributed to what happened with the briefcase.

In other words - it's all made up and has no bearing on the enjoyment of the fiction, which is also made up.

As I've said before: canon is a silly construct. Continuity even more so.

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

Va'al wrote:

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:I do have to admit that the whole "multiverse birthed from Brainstorm's briefcase" Thing is funny and I love it!

I also believe it's made-up. But if upsets people who are REALLY concerned with canon and continuity - à la Alpha Bravo - then it's more than welcome to stay.

Well you can so choose to ignore it. I mean come one! It is an extremely arrogant read between the lines meaning and that just screams Robert being sassy about the whole thing! It doesn't need to be taken literally, but I love the idea. Like, universe Prime so to speak

Oh, we goaded him into it anyhow by explaining that different universes with designations and numbers and so on indeed existed "officially". I don't take it literally either, but it's enjoyable to have fun with.

I saw the Vector Prime thing, But I prefer to think Brainstorm and Perceptor invented the multiverse. It's fun

As I said on the show, I wasn't a big fan of the "Aligned" Continuity. It was just too hard to reconcile differences. It's kind of like shoehorning Star Wars Dark Empire into the old Expanded Universe when that started out. It pretty much contradicted everything in the Zahn Trilogy so it never made much sense to me.

As for multiverse, cannon and all that. If the club comes out and tells me that Brawl was originally from Iacon, and then somewhere else it says he's from Kaon, it really doesn't bug me. It's not going to stop me from enjoying Transformers. I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

Yeah but you have to be sure to get rounds without a ton of knockback for your head cannon. Whiplash wouldn't be fun.

ScottyP wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

Yeah but you have to be sure to get rounds without a ton of knockback for your head cannon. Whiplash wouldn't be fun.

I'll make sure to ask AoE Lockdown where he gets his when I need to stock up.

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

Yeah but you have to be sure to get rounds without a ton of knockback for your head cannon. Whiplash wouldn't be fun.

I'll make sure to ask AoE Lockdown where he gets his when I need to stock up.

jokes aside, I like choices. means pretty much nothing is completely absolute

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

Yeah but you have to be sure to get rounds without a ton of knockback for your head cannon. Whiplash wouldn't be fun.

I'll make sure to ask AoE Lockdown where he gets his when I need to stock up.

jokes aside, I like choices. means pretty much nothing is completely absolute

That's pretty much what AVP has lately been trying to convey to people who keep trying to categorize every little aspect about the multiverse into neatly organized boxes. Rather than people being so absurdly meticulous about it, the whole point of an infinite multiverse is that practically anything's possible and not so rigidly set in stone. The possibilities of what one can imagine are limitless, based only on one's imagination. Having such a boundless multiverse allows for much creative freedom, yet sadly there are many a fan who keep trying to have everything placed into such finite systematic organizations when they really needn't to and just need to realize "It's all about toys! Play with them and have fun with them how ever way you want!"

Sabrblade wrote:

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:I think everyone has their own Head Cannon anyways and you pick and choose from sources what you want to be in it.

Yeah but you have to be sure to get rounds without a ton of knockback for your head cannon. Whiplash wouldn't be fun.

I'll make sure to ask AoE Lockdown where he gets his when I need to stock up.

jokes aside, I like choices. means pretty much nothing is completely absolute

That's pretty much what AVP has lately been trying to convey to people who keep trying to categorize every little aspect about the multiverse into neatly organized boxes. Rather than people being so absurdly meticulous about it, the whole point of an infinite multiverse is that practically anything's possible and not so rigidly set in stone. The possibilities of what one can imagine are limitless, based only on one's imagination. Having such a boundless multiverse allows for much creative freedom, yet sadly there are many a fan who keep trying to have everything placed into such finite systematic organizations when they really needn't to and just need to realize "It's all about toys! Play with them and have fun with them how ever way you want!"

It's not your imagination or my imagination. Just those whose imaginations are licensed and therefore canonical.

great show, stimulating some great debate

my two cents, the multiverse is created by comic companies to allow for the re use of characters that had fallen out of favour ( killed off?) in past years

the 'official' fan club would use a multiverse to allow it to follow it's own fiction to boost it's own offerings, rather than follow the fiction that are supporting the mainline toys.


happy new year, if this is the first recording in 2016, looking forward to the toy fair episode.

Regarding Multiversal Singularities

I guess I was indifferent to the idea. I got into the fiction around the time that Universe (2003) was putting its odd take on things into the minds of fans, so I just went with the idea. It was kind of intuitive that there would be one Unicron out there gobbling up everything slowly.

But...

Put to really considering it all from a storytelling and writing standpoint...the idea of Multiversal Singularities is a hinderance and opens more wounds than it heals. Ultimately, I think it's a poor plot device, especially with the general lack of creative control the brand seems to exert over its fiction.

Counterpunch wrote:Regarding Multiversal Singularities

I guess I was indifferent to the idea. I got into the fiction around the time that Universe (2003) was putting its odd take on things into the minds of fans, so I just went with the idea. It was kind of intuitive that there would be one Unicron out there gobbling up everything slowly.

But...

Put to really considering it all from a storytelling and writing standpoint...the idea of Multiversal Singularities is a hinderance and opens more wounds than it heals. Ultimately, I think it's a poor plot device, especially with the general lack of creative control the brand seems to exert over its fiction.

Well, it's gone now, anyway.

Here's a shot of the breaking of the singularity concept right as the breaking was about to commence (that's Nexus Prime as the glowing form in the center):



The actual breaking happened in the next panel or so on the next page.

Counterpunch wrote:Put to really considering it all from a storytelling and writing standpoint...the idea of Multiversal Singularities is a hinderance and opens more wounds than it heals. Ultimately, I think it's a poor plot device, especially with the general lack of creative control the brand seems to exert over its fiction.

Herein lies my biggest issues with the Transformers brand. I continue to be baffled that Hasbro somehow can't exert exact control over how the Transformers should be presented fictionally. The issue with the live action movies I sort of get since they were rather naive back in their early 2000s and basically sold the farm in hopes that they'd make a few bucks. I don't think anyone really expected the Transformers film franchise to turn into a multi billion dollar franchise at that time. What really irks me though is that they continue to have problems enforcing their will, even within their own organization. If Hasbro can't control Hasbro Studios, then what hope do we have that the Transformers fiction will have be a truly cohesive story? It's frustrating, and it only gets more muddied the more twists and spins other licensed groups are able to put on it, which is where I get turned off by the Club fiction, novels, etc. It's all too far removed from the people in charge.

Seibertron wrote:Herein lies my biggest issues with the Transformers brand. I continue to be baffled that Hasbro somehow can't exert exact control over how the Transformers should be presented fictionally.

I don't want exact control. Some is ok. IDW is a nice balance that seems to keep fans pretty happy.

A person or team to steer the ship is totally cool, and that may be what you mean. But I just want them steering, not putting the coal in the engine and making sure the hallway decor doesn't get too fancy.

ScottyP wrote:

Seibertron wrote:Herein lies my biggest issues with the Transformers brand. I continue to be baffled that Hasbro somehow can't exert exact control over how the Transformers should be presented fictionally.

I don't want exact control. Some is ok. IDW is a nice balance that seems to keep fans pretty happy.

A person or team to steer the ship is totally cool, and that may be what you mean. But I just want them steering, not putting the coal in the engine and making sure the hallway decor doesn't get too fancy.

I also wouldn't want Disney-like control, if that's what you're saying. But I do see where Seibertron is coming from - some consistency or continuity would be nice.

The problem I see is, to continue the Marvel parallel, Disney is a media company whereas Hasbro is a products company. For Disney and Marvel, everything is built around media or fiction, and there's some natural order flowing from that. Hasbro and Transformers, on the other hand, as a products company with ever changing lines and brand managers, will see a lot less consistency or order within a similar time frame. I'd like to see at least somewhat more control over the Transformers brand, but I'm not sure the nature of the toy business lends itself to that.

Seibertron wrote:(snip) Talks about Robin

(snip) shows Star Trek as a good example

I agree with all of this. I got into comics with that robin returns from the dead story and I anticipated seeing how he sirvived death. When taht issue came out showing that it was because Superboy Prime punched through the universe's contiuity I almost swore off comics. I didnt have 70 plus years of comic knowledge, it was all nonsensical. What is cool though Ryan is that the same author of that terrible story rectified the siatuation by also beig the script writer of the movie you watched. So it was his way of getting a second chance at writing that same story and he did a much better job, learning from his mistakes.

And I totally love what they did with Star Trek, I think it is deeply underapreciated how genius JJ Abrams and crew were with that decision. While it did create a new universe, the fact that Old Spock (which the movie calls Spock Prime in the credits ) is the reason behind it means that everything hat happened in old Spock's life still had to happen for him to end up here. So while we are starting anew, nothing is cancelled out and both new fans can enjoy this new vision while old fans still have all the older stuff which is still just as legit.

Seibertron wrote:
Then it doesn't count. Fan fiction published by the Fan Club doesn't count, especially considering how low the readership for that content must be.

By that same reasoning, would it mean that the fan club toys also don't count as official toys, especially considering how low the production is? Because from what Megatronus said a rep told him, it sure seems Hasbro thinks they dont matter. They gave the club an ok for rewind when they knew they would make their own, thus not seeing the club's Rewind as legit as their own would be (or a reason not to make a Rewind themselves).

Seibertron wrote:It's my opinion, but I have a suspicion that a lot of the fandom probably agrees! Though I could be wrong. Curious to hear what the rest of you think.

Here is what I think: I don't really care. This whole brand is based off people writing fiction about toys that were from another line anyway. The original cartoon and marvel comic was itself a new interpretation of the Diaclone fiction (whether the authors knew it or not). So to me, its all just different stories based on toys. As long as it is good, I will give it a watch or read it. The club fiction to me is just as forced sometimes as the current comics. It's just as contrived to have Packrat meet movie megatron to give validity to some toys as it is to have Starscream suddenly change his body into Armada Starscream's body, the same time BB changes body and at the same time that rattrap meets them. I dont care for contrived fiction, instead I really love when a writer or a team takes what is given to them and makes it their own (except for Ehran Krueger). That's why I have chosen to buy MTMTE monthly and drop the Barber comic.

ScottyP wrote: That could be counterpointed by saying Alpha Bravo was a prepaint for Blades and Vortex, but that's ok, they've been good at making helicopter Transformers for a long time now with only limited exception (RotF Blazemaster, ew!)

I have the top 5 helicopter molds ist coming out this week-end, stay tuned to see where Blazemaster ranks.

Va'al wrote:In other words - it's all made up and has no bearing on the enjoyment of the fiction, which is also made up.

As I've said before: canon is a silly construct. Continuity even more so.

Agreed!

Ok, so my feedback for the show is that while it was a great episode, I would have much preferred hearing Rodimus' thoughts and review on Shockwave than hear about football predictions. But maybe that's just because I am a big Megatronus fan and I preffer his voice to his silence

Congrats on the Panthers winning Scotty!

william-james88 wrote:
Ok, so my feedback for the show is that while it was a great episode, I would have much preferred hearing Rodimus' thoughts and review on Shockwave than hear about football predictions. But maybe that's just because I am a big Megatronus fan and I preffer his voice to his silence

Congrats on the Panthers winning Scotty!

I was so close to being right about the Packers!

ScottyP wrote:That last sentence is what bugs me about a lot of that fiction. There's oversight, and yes, it's in the hands of capable and (generally) good stewards of the brand, but at the end of the day it's just a couple guys doing whatever the hell they want to. Most of the official/canonical material out there has a lot of oversight and direction - the comics all go through Barber, the movies all go through Bay/Paramount, the cartoons all go through Executive Producers. In other words, the buck stops somewhere. With much of the prose and especially the "Facebook canon" being added, it's just stuff. Hell, look at the TF Wiki right now, the dudes had to put in a two week moratorium on adding that Facebook stuff because some of it is just purposely making confusing stuff up! If the Wiki guys are lost, god help the rest of us.

This is how I feel about the comics in general... Now, I have never followed the comics so they could be utterly awesome and maybe I'd buy in if I thoroughly enjoyed them, but as someone that's never paid any attention, I hear some of what has happened and I think it's just stupid s#it some comic knob made up so I don't give any credence to it. Like Prowlastator or Autobot Megs...it just seems so....comicky. I'm sure the G1 toon is equally stupid, ridiculous, and nonsensical, if not more...but I was also a kid that accepted whatever nonsense back then.

Kibble wrote:I'm sure the G1 toon is equally stupid, ridiculous, and nonsensical, if not more...but I was also a kid that accepted whatever nonsense back then.

In addition to the G1 cartoon, isn't the notion of "someone in charge of a work of fiction doing whatever they want or whatever they feel needs to be done" pretty much the basic root of most fiction (not just Transformers fiction) in general, though?

Sabrblade wrote:

Kibble wrote:I'm sure the G1 toon is equally stupid, ridiculous, and nonsensical, if not more...but I was also a kid that accepted whatever nonsense back then.

In addition to the G1 cartoon, isn't the notion of "someone in charge of a work of fiction doing whatever they want or whatever they feel needs to be done" pretty much the basic root of most fiction (not just Transformers fiction) in general, though?

Maybe, but then what would be the basis for Transformers fiction? The fiction is based on the toys, but the toys are based on pre-existing toys that have their own fiction. So how does that fit as the origin of this fiction?

william-james88 wrote:Maybe, but then what would be the basis for Transformers fiction?

Something like "Two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts", maybe.

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Maybe, but then what would be the basis for Transformers fiction?

Something like "Two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts", maybe.

Ah but wait, that isnt the initial fiction of the original figures. So for transformers, why would it be that and not:

Manned robots have gained consciousness and have now become two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts ?

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Maybe, but then what would be the basis for Transformers fiction?

Something like "Two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts", maybe.

Ah but wait, that isnt the initial fiction of the original figures. So for transformers, why would it be that and not:

Manned robots have gained consciousness and have now become two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts ?

Diaclone didn't really have fiction, but its premise was basically "Humans pilot converting robots to defend Earth from insectoid alien invaders who also pilot converting mecha."

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Maybe, but then what would be the basis for Transformers fiction?

Something like "Two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts", maybe.

Ah but wait, that isnt the initial fiction of the original figures. So for transformers, why would it be that and not:

Manned robots have gained consciousness and have now become two warring factions of robots that possess the ability to convert into other forms, and at times when not in the midst of warfare have other adventures and conflicts ?

Diaclone didn't really have fiction, but its premise was basically "Humans pilot converting robots to defend Earth from insectoid alien invaders who also pilot converting mecha."

Sure, and thats my point. Is that not the initial fiction of these toys? And thus making any fiction written after secondary anyways? And plus, it had some fiction, it came with the magazines that advertised the toys: http://www.transformerland.com/blog/dia ... car-robot/

Plus, if you look at G1 Perceptor, he is a toy which comes from a rich fiction of Microman, making that the initial fiction of that toy.

So in that context, your idea of initial fiction gets a little fuzzy since all the earliest characters are derivatives from other lines.