The Energon Pub

That is not the same thing as a different Unicron, but Unicron in a different time. Same universe just different time. As the Guide says, even if you completely destroy the corporial form of Unicron, he will eventually regenerate completely. Thus, He sent his heralds across time into a possible future within the Marvel universe, to bring back Galvatron, who had already served the Future Unicron. Thus, what Unicron told Galvatron is true, Galvatron had not served "this" Unicron, yet, He would in the future. and Unicron in the present needed his services now.S o, in the immortal words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, What he said was true, from a certain point of view.

Tramp wrote:That is not the same thing as a different Unicron, but Unicron in a different time. Same universe just different time. As the Guide says, even if you completely destroy the corporial form of Unicron, he will eventually regenerate completely. Thus, He sent his heralds across time into a possible future within the Marvel universe, to bring back Galvatron, who had already served the Future Unicron. Thus, what Unicron told Galvatron is true, Galvatron had not served "this" Unicron, yet, He would in the future. and Unicron in the present needed his services now.S o, in the immortal words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, What he said was true, from a certain point of view.

That contradick most theroys on time travel.The two major theroys are.......If one travels from the future to the past and changes things revalent to his birth then he would seast to exsist.The other is that as before the travel would then create a alternate time line also know as a parrel universe.
That point of view being that theres more then one Unicron in the Marvel books.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:That is not the same thing as a different Unicron, but Unicron in a different time. Same universe just different time. As the Guide says, even if you completely destroy the corporial form of Unicron, he will eventually regenerate completely. Thus, He sent his heralds across time into a possible future within the Marvel universe, to bring back Galvatron, who had already served the Future Unicron. Thus, what Unicron told Galvatron is true, Galvatron had not served "this" Unicron, yet, He would in the future. and Unicron in the present needed his services now.S o, in the immortal words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, What he said was true, from a certain point of view.

That contradick most theroys on time travel.The two major theroys are.......If one travels from the future to the past and changes things revalent to his birth then he would seast to exsist.The other is that as before the travel would then create a alternate time line also know as a parrel universe.
That point of view being that theres more then one Unicron in the Marvel books.

No there isn't for one simple reason. Unicron is a god, and as such he existis in all possible realities, all possible futures. Unicron cannot be permanently killed. Even if you kill him in the past, he will still regenerate to threaten the future.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:That is not the same thing as a different Unicron, but Unicron in a different time. Same universe just different time. As the Guide says, even if you completely destroy the corporial form of Unicron, he will eventually regenerate completely. Thus, He sent his heralds across time into a possible future within the Marvel universe, to bring back Galvatron, who had already served the Future Unicron. Thus, what Unicron told Galvatron is true, Galvatron had not served "this" Unicron, yet, He would in the future. and Unicron in the present needed his services now.S o, in the immortal words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, What he said was true, from a certain point of view.

That contradick most theroys on time travel.The two major theroys are.......If one travels from the future to the past and changes things revalent to his birth then he would seast to exsist.The other is that as before the travel would then create a alternate time line also know as a parrel universe.
That point of view being that theres more then one Unicron in the Marvel books.

No there isn't for one simple reason. Unicron is a god, and as such he existis in all possible realities, all possible futures. Unicron cannot be permanently killed. Even if you kill him in the past, he will still regenerate to threaten the future.

You just cant give up can you.You insisting on thinking that the Ulitmate Guide is the one and only G1 tf history by retcon and thats just not true.Even that book states that the Transformers are a part of a multiverse with many universes within it.Even if TUGuide is the root of all the Universes it does not rewite the other Universes.

Not compeltely no. What it does do is correct discrepencies. The things that are copmpletely unique and specific events in each universe still remain intact. what is unified are the key factors of history that unite them all. Primus and Unicron are a part of that. The important thing the Ultimate Guide says is that they are the same Primus and Unicron in all universes, and that they exist in all of them simultaneously. That does not change the actual events that occured in each universe.

Tramp wrote:Not compeltely no. What it does do is correct discrepencies. The things that are copmpletely unique and specific events in each universe still remain intact. what is unified are the key factors of history that unite them all. Primus and Unicron are a part of that. The important thing the Ultimate Guide says is that they are the same Primus and Unicron in all universes, and that they exist in all of them simultaneously. That does not change the actual events that occured in each universe.

It may not in conserns of the Marvel books but it does in regaurds to the G1 toon.Now I know they came up with a good way to explaine the Quintason story but they didnt even try to come up with one for Primacron creating Unicron.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:Not compeltely no. What it does do is correct discrepencies. The things that are copmpletely unique and specific events in each universe still remain intact. what is unified are the key factors of history that unite them all. Primus and Unicron are a part of that. The important thing the Ultimate Guide says is that they are the same Primus and Unicron in all universes, and that they exist in all of them simultaneously. That does not change the actual events that occured in each universe.

It may not in conserns of the Marvel books but it does in regaurds to the G1 toon.Now I know they came up with a good way to explaine the Quintason story but they didnt even try to come up with one for Primacron creating Unicron.

I don't know much about the Primacron story, but considering just how long in the past that Unicron and Primus were born (at the very beginning of time), we can chalk the Primacron story up to myth and legend. It could also be chalked up to Primacron being used by a disembodied Unicron using Primacron to create him a new body after and ancient defeat by Primus. In all of the continuities, Primus and Unicron battled in the distant past to a stalemate where they were both "Imprisoned" in a planetoid, This happened across the multiverse. creating their corporial forms in every universe at once. The first instance is where the two of them took on their planetary forms near the beginning of time, then, in a later battle, one that cost the lives of most of the original 13, he was trapped in a black hole. for a time. In all of the universes, Unicron has escaped his corporial prison to wreak havok, feed his hunger, and search for Primus, intemittently going dormant himself before being awoken during modern times, in most continuities, only to be defeated, and his body destroyed for a time.

Well, you can say the Quints invaded Cybertron and enslaved the tf's, but that doesn't explain why they are seen constructing new tf's on Cybertron. They are not divided, they are built (shown on screen) in two distinct lines in FFoD4. You can go by TUGuide theories, but if you keep the toon continuity in the toon continuity, you don't need the whole backpeddaling thing as it is all explained. And yes, the toon does have trouble with origin consistancy, but series 3 kept everything more or less in line with itself.

Why would the Quints say they are the creator's of the tf's? Surely they would just say they are the 'masters' of them. Yes, you could say they were just trying to throw off the tf's, but they even say to each other when no tf is around, which serves no purpose. I know you like references Tramp, so that was in The Dweller in the Depths. They say the Trans Organics were their previous attempt at robotics before the tf's.

Also, the Primacron story is told to a number of tf's by Primacron's assistant, who was there during the construction and rebellion of Unicron. So it wasn't myth and legend, it was an eye witness account.

You could say that the Quints UPGRADED the bots, therefore making it look like they were BUILDING them.

Eradicator wrote:You could say that the Quints UPGRADED the bots, therefore making it look like they were BUILDING them.

You could say many things. I go for in continuity explainations of things.

Anyone else think Alpha Trion looks like those military bots from the flashback in FFoD4? Perhaps he was originally one of those and he defected.

Insurgent wrote:Well, you can say the Quints invaded Cybertron and enslaved the tf's, but that doesn't explain why they are seen constructing new tf's on Cybertron. They are not divided, they are built (shown on screen) in two distinct lines in FFoD4. You can go by TUGuide theories, but if you keep the toon continuity in the toon continuity, you don't need the whole backpeddaling thing as it is all explained. And yes, the toon does have trouble with origin consistancy, but series 3 kept everything more or less in line with itself.

What we're seeing then is what the Quintessans have done in their manipulations of the early Transformers race. Taking a unified people and dividing them into two distinct subclasses "genetically engineering" them for specific tasks. The perfect slave race in there eyes.

Why would the Quints say they are the creator's of the tf's? Surely they would just say they are the 'masters' of them. Yes, you could say they were just trying to throw off the tf's, but they even say to each other when no tf is around, which serves no purpose. I know you like references Tramp, so that was in The Dweller in the Depths. They say the Trans Organics were their previous attempt at robotics before the tf's.

Why wouldn't they? It pure Huberous. The Quintessans are arrogant in the extreme, maliciously playing God, choosing who lives and who dies on a whim, enslaving whole civilizations and interfereing with their natural development, transforming their "subjects' sinto something they were never meant to be just to satisfy their own twisted egos. For that reason alone, the Quints would want to claim credit for creating the TransFormers race. And, in a way, they did, because they did completely alter their evolution, thus creating the modern TransForer race.

[/quote]Also, the Primacron story is told to a number of tf's by Primacron's assistant, who was there during the construction and rebellion of Unicron. So it wasn't myth and legend, it was an eye witness account.[/quote] Then it comes down to Primacron being used by Unicron to build him a new body.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:Not compeltely no. What it does do is correct discrepencies. The things that are copmpletely unique and specific events in each universe still remain intact. what is unified are the key factors of history that unite them all. Primus and Unicron are a part of that. The important thing the Ultimate Guide says is that they are the same Primus and Unicron in all universes, and that they exist in all of them simultaneously. That does not change the actual events that occured in each universe.

It may not in conserns of the Marvel books but it does in regaurds to the G1 toon.Now I know they came up with a good way to explaine the Quintason story but they didnt even try to come up with one for Primacron creating Unicron.

I don't know much about the Primacron story, but considering just how long in the past that Unicron and Primus were born (at the very beginning of time), we can chalk the Primacron story up to myth and legend. It could also be chalked up to Primacron being used by a disembodied Unicron using Primacron to create him a new body after and ancient defeat by Primus. In all of the continuities, Primus and Unicron battled in the distant past to a stalemate where they were both "Imprisoned" in a planetoid, This happened across the multiverse. creating their corporial forms in every universe at once. The first instance is where the two of them took on their planetary forms near the beginning of time, then, in a later battle, one that cost the lives of most of the original 13, he was trapped in a black hole. for a time. In all of the universes, Unicron has escaped his corporial prison to wreak havok, feed his hunger, and search for Primus, intemittently going dormant himself before being awoken during modern times, in most continuities, only to be defeated, and his body destroyed for a time.

The problem with that theroy is that it re-writes the script of the episode that featured Primacron and Unicron.You see unlike some of the other episodes that "IMPLY" the creation of one TF by an other[Meg's building Constructicon, Constructicon building Meg's] witch could be easyly explained by a its own dialog [building does not mean creating them from new, Megatron being born could mean he was up-gradeded by the Constructicons like Orinpax was by Alphatrion] The episode says that Unicron was created by primacron.An Primacron cant be a nyth cause he appared in the episode and not in the storys past but in the episode's time pierod...Let me give you a little history on Primacron....please for give the fact that I got it from Wiki:
Near the beginning of the universe, the being known as Primacron existed. Possessed of tremendous intelligence and an indefinite lifespan, but diminutive physical form, Primacron chose to be a creator, developing primitive mechanoids, one of which became his assistant as he continued his work. His creations continually grew greater, larger and smarter, until finally, he created the world-eater, Unicron. The megalomaniacal Primacron planned to use Unicron as an instrument of his will, sending him to consume world after world, to wipe out all life in the universe, leaving it a blank slate for Primacron to do with as he wished. But Primacron's creation was too intelligent - Unicron decided that he would be his own master, and turned on Primacron, gravely injuring the tiny being before voyaging out into the universe to fulfill his destiny.

Aeons passed, and Primacron recovered from his wounds, turning his attention to creation once again, still seeking to fulfill his original goal. Unicron's rebellion, he reckoned, lay in the fact that he was a being of matter, and so Primacron fashioned a being of pure, living energy that he dubbed Tornedron. In the Earth year 2006, Primacron unleashed Tornedron on an unsuspecting galaxy, and Earth, Cybertron, and most of the Transformer race fell victim to his energy-draining abilities with sudden, terrifying ease.

However, one last hope existed in the form of a group of Transformers gathered together by Primacron's old assistant. His body destroyed in Unicron's attack, the assistant's essence had fled to a dead world at the centre of the galaxy. Realizing the madness of Primacron's ambition, the assistant - called "Oracle" in the episode's script, though not given any name in the episode itself - summoned a group of animal-themed Transformers to his world, hoping that their primitive instincts would prove an effective counter-force to Primacron's intelligence. Alas, moving under Primacron's direct control, Tornedron defeated and drained all of them, save for Grimlock, who was left for dead when Trypticon collapsed on him. Grimlock survived the ordeal, however, and proceeded to track Tornedron back to Primacron's world, where he confronted the scientist and was particularly amused by his stature. Tornedron, however, interrupted Grimlock's merriment by making it apparent that he too had attained independent thought, and as he bore down on Primacron's world, intending to consume it, Primacron attempted to calculate the proper course of action to defeat his creation. When the complex plans failed, the simple-minded Grimlock randomly flipped a switch on the control panel, reversing Tornedron's energy polarity and dissipating him. Although Primacron was suitably impressed by Grimlock's direct actions, his relief soon turned to dismay when Grimlock's joyful victory celebrations decimated his laboratory.

I'm also giving you a link to youtube so you can watch the episode if you havnt before......funny thing you'll see is that Primacron's aid is seen fleeing after Unicrons attack in somthing that looks like the Matrix of leadership.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RldQxYi45sI



http://youtube.com/watch?v=RldQxYi45sI

Insurgent wrote:Well, you can say the Quints invaded Cybertron and enslaved the tf's, but that doesn't explain why they are seen constructing new tf's on Cybertron. They are not divided, they are built (shown on screen) in two distinct lines in FFoD4. You can go by TUGuide theories, but if you keep the toon continuity in the toon continuity, you don't need the whole backpeddaling thing as it is all explained. And yes, the toon does have trouble with origin consistancy, but series 3 kept everything more or less in line with itself.

Why would the Quints say they are the creator's of the tf's? Surely they would just say they are the 'masters' of them. Yes, you could say they were just trying to throw off the tf's, but they even say to each other when no tf is around, which serves no purpose. I know you like references Tramp, so that was in The Dweller in the Depths. They say the Trans Organics were their previous attempt at robotics before the tf's.

Also, the Primacron story is told to a number of tf's by Primacron's assistant, who was there during the construction and rebellion of Unicron. So it wasn't myth and legend, it was an eye witness account.

To be 100% honest I can see why the Quints would lie and claim to be their creators.And the shots of them building TF's would still be valid ether way since they were mass producing them for the retail market.My personal idea is that the Quints happened opon Primus in a shut down mode after the fight he and the 13 had with Unicron and the Fallen.The Quints salvaged the core of Primus and built Vectosigma from it and started building TF's to sell at retail.

Actually, that theory doesn't completely rewrite the story. It only slightly modifies it. It makes adjustments to it. Considering that Uncron's true form exists on the Astral plane. IT is conceivable that he influenced Primacron in his dreams to "create" this new mosntrosity, then once it was completed, Unicron took posession of his new body and "rebelled" against Primacron. Since the entire past hstory was told from the point of view of Primacron's assistant, he certainly would not have been perview to Primacron's dreams.

quote] Then it comes down to Primacron being used by Unicron to build him a new body.[/quote]

But the script says that he built Unicron from scrach as well as a bunch of other monsters including one he thought was superior to Unicron...Tornatron.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:quote] Then it comes down to Primacron being used by Unicron to build him a new body.

But the script says that he built Unicron from scrach as well as a bunch of other monsters including one he thought was superior to Unicron...Tornatron.[/quote]

Yes, but if his inspiration for "creating" Unicron came from a dream implanted by the true Chaosbringer himself, That takes care of the entire contradiction.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:quote] Then it comes down to Primacron being used by Unicron to build him a new body.

But the script says that he built Unicron from scrach as well as a bunch of other monsters including one he thought was superior to Unicron...Tornatron.

Yes, but if his inspiration for "creating" Unicron came from a dream implanted by the true Chaosbringer himself, That takes care of the entire contradiction.[/quote]

No your grasping at straws.....you your self said that the UGuide dosnt change anything in the other universes that were truly unique....I beleave that Primus creating Unicron it the toon universe qualify's.

Tramp wrote:Actually, that theory doesn't completely rewrite the story. It only slightly modifies it. It makes adjustments to it. Considering that Uncron's true form exists on the Astral plane. IT is conceivable that he influenced Primacron in his dreams to "create" this new mosntrosity, then once it was completed, Unicron took posession of his new body and "rebelled" against Primacron. Since the entire past hstory was told from the point of view of Primacron's assistant, he certainly would not have been perview to Primacron's dreams.

This theory is a good one, and one I personally subscribe to. As evidenced in my fan fic.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:quote] Then it comes down to Primacron being used by Unicron to build him a new body.

But the script says that he built Unicron from scrach as well as a bunch of other monsters including one he thought was superior to Unicron...Tornatron.

Yes, but if his inspiration for "creating" Unicron came from a dream implanted by the true Chaosbringer himself, That takes care of the entire contradiction.

No your grasping at straws.....you your self said that the UGuide dosnt change anything in the other universes that were truly unique....I beleave that Primus creating Unicron it the toon universe qualify's.[/quote]

No, it doesn't, because Unicron and Primus are not unique. They're ubiquitous to all continuities. What is unique are specific events and the forms individual characters appear in. Those are unique. Primus being the Creator of the TransFormers race, and his brother Unicron the Chaosbringer, are not unique to one specific continuity. Their creation spans from before any of these continuities existed. The multiverse was born after them. What may vary is how their corporial bodies came to be in each continuity, but their true creation is consistant. They were born from the "Source" to watch over creation, and Unicron chose instead to destroy creation across the new multiverse, thus pitting him against his brother. This history is established for the entire TF multiverse. How they came to posess their current planet forms might vary from continutiy to continuity, but how they came into existance is not.

Except in the toon.

Toon continuity explicitly stated Quintessons made the tf's and Primacron made Unicron.

Anything else is retcons and fan theories. The retcons and Fanfics make it better, but they are still not official toon cannon.

Insurgent wrote:Except in the toon.

Toon continuity explicitly stated Quintessons made the tf's and Primacron made Unicron.

Anything else is retcons and fan theories. The retcons and Fanfics make it better, but they are still not official toon cannon.

No. While fanfics are not official, Retcons are official. Thus, they would indeed qualify as toon canon. The history of Unicron and Primus, and the Quintessans is an official retcon

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:Except in the toon.

Toon continuity explicitly stated Quintessons made the tf's and Primacron made Unicron.

Anything else is retcons and fan theories. The retcons and Fanfics make it better, but they are still not official toon cannon.

No. While fanfics are not official, Retcons are official. Thus, they would indeed qualify as toon canon. The history of Unicron and Primus, and the Quintessans is an official retcon

You know you might be right about that.The retcon should apply to the toon because it was Hasbro that gave the rights to DW ant DK book's to wr-write the universe in a more sencble story.But I'm not so sure that they apply to the Marvel books.Lincesing guide lines have changed over the years so I'm not sure just WHO has the writes to ownership of all of Marvels matiral.If it is Marvel then the retcon's do not apply but if its Hasbro then they should.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:Except in the toon.

Toon continuity explicitly stated Quintessons made the tf's and Primacron made Unicron.

Anything else is retcons and fan theories. The retcons and Fanfics make it better, but they are still not official toon cannon.

No. While fanfics are not official, Retcons are official. Thus, they would indeed qualify as toon canon. The history of Unicron and Primus, and the Quintessans is an official retcon

You know you might be right about that.The retcon should apply to the toon because it was Hasbro that gave the rights to DW ant DK book's to wr-write the universe in a more sencble story.But I'm not so sure that they apply to the Marvel books.Lincesing guide lines have changed over the years so I'm not sure just WHO has the writes to ownership of all of Marvels matiral.If it is Marvel then the retcon's do not apply but if its Hasbro then they should.

Hasbro owns the material, Marvel was just the licensee. This is why IDW is now able to reprint all of Marvel's old comics.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:Except in the toon.

Toon continuity explicitly stated Quintessons made the tf's and Primacron made Unicron.

Anything else is retcons and fan theories. The retcons and Fanfics make it better, but they are still not official toon cannon.

No. While fanfics are not official, Retcons are official. Thus, they would indeed qualify as toon canon. The history of Unicron and Primus, and the Quintessans is an official retcon

You know you might be right about that.The retcon should apply to the toon because it was Hasbro that gave the rights to DW ant DK book's to wr-write the universe in a more sencble story.But I'm not so sure that they apply to the Marvel books.Lincesing guide lines have changed over the years so I'm not sure just WHO has the writes to ownership of all of Marvels matiral.If it is Marvel then the retcon's do not apply but if its Hasbro then they should.

Hasbro owns the material, Marvel was just the licensee. This is why IDW is now able to reprint all of Marvel's old comics.

But they could have gotten the rights from Marvel ass well but if your right then the retcon applys.

IF you look at the fine print at the bottom of the title page at the front of each issue of the Marvel books ot will read Copyright Hasbro, Used under license, all characters and etc are trademarks of Hasbr, etc... IT says basically the same thing in the IDW books as well as the DW books. Hasbro is the owner, Marvel, DW and now IDW are or were just licensees.