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Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:00 am**

Seibertron wrote:
When did the real Thor die or disappear? That plot point seemed really cliche to me as well. I would be pissed if I was a Thor fan.

It was in an issue of FF. not sure on the issue number.

Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:00 am**

Seibertron wrote:The two characters that I had the hardest time understanding their motives were Peter Parker and Reed Richards. Both characters seemed to be doing something really out of character. I was shocked that Parker threw away all of those years of protecting the people he loved the most like Mary Jane and Aunt May. His identity reveal seemed out-of-character and irresponsible to me, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. Reed, on the other hand, seemed to just throw his wife aside. It just seemed like a plot device to create further storylines down the road.

I only got back into non-TF comics when CW started, so I had no idea Peter had joined the Avengers and all that. But to me Peter didn't really have a motive. He found a father figure in Stark and simply went along with everything Stark suggested to him.

In a way Stark took advantage of Peter. Oh sure he gave him his new suit (which was pretty much an Iron Man suit and made Peter's (un)natural spider abilities redundant), put him, MJ and May up in fancy accommodation and provided them with protection, but it was clear that Stark realised he could use Peter as the poster boy for registration.

Great example of how much Stark didn't give a fig about others as long as they served his long term goal.

As far as Reed goes, there was no credibility to his actions. And you're right, it is a plot device to set up the new FF line-up (Johnny, Ben, Storm and Black Panther if I recall)

Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:30 am**

Seibertron wrote:
Burn wrote:So we've picked Stark apart. How about Reed Richards?

I find it hard to believe that someone so smart, could be so damn blind.

The problems caused by the registration act, his wife walking out on him, and he didn't even stop to think he may have been wrong. Not to mention how immoral the clone Thor thing was.

The two characters that I had the hardest time understanding their motives were Peter Parker and Reed Richards. Both characters seemed to be doing something really out of character. I was shocked that Parker threw away all of those years of protecting the people he loved the most like Mary Jane and Aunt May. His identity reveal seemed out-of-character and irresponsible to me, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. Reed, on the other hand, seemed to just throw his wife aside. It just seemed like a plot device to create further storylines down the road.

Peter had a real student/teacher relationship with Tony prior to things breaking down. His decisions were not simply abandoning Mary Jane and May, Tony had gone to great lengths to protect both them and Peter. So in essence, Peter's family had grown by one, (+Tony).

Don't forget to add in the fact that Peter was on the fence about the whole thing. It was Mary Jane and May who told him it was ok, and the right thing to do. They were guiding forces in his decision.

As for Reed. Fantastic Four #542 is really, really important for understanding his decision making. Since everyone saw the spoiler warning at the beginning, I'll discuss it.

Reed, after consulting with Johnny and The Thinker (an intellectual genious that Reed considered capable of 'checking his work'); Reed concluded with like 99% accuracy, that the Registration Act was the one factor which could prevent the eminent destruction of Earth's populace. Read that issue. ( I have a digital copy if you can't find it ) Reed and his decision make SO much more sense then.

Seibertron wrote:
Burn wrote:Speaking of clone Thor again, have a read of Black Panther 25. Storm -vs- Clone Thor at the start of the final battle before Hercules steps in to finish the job.

I've never been a real big fan of Storm (never understood what was so great about her, little bit over-rated) but marrying T'Challa and dedicating herself to Wakanda has done a lot for her character.

When did the real Thor die or disappear? That plot point seemed really cliche to me as well. I would be pissed if I was a Thor fan.

Thor has been gone since the Avengers Disassembled story arc. Asgard was obliterated in a true Ragnorok. Basically, Thor allowed the event to come to true fruition in order to break a cycle of meaningless life and death that his people were suffering at the hands of the Celestials. (BTW, Awesome read. Really, Realy good. The best part of Avengers Disassembled.)

Now back in Fantastic Four #540 or #541, Thor's hammer falls to Earth (tearing heaven and hell in the process and subsequently freeing Doctor Doom from hell). Thousands of people try to lift the hammer, even Doom. All fail.

A lone figure with the initials G.B. skips the line, pushes someone away and takes the hammer. G.B. then disappears. Basically, Thor is around, but chose to avoid the Civil War.

Whew...

Any other questions? :grin:

Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:47 pm**

Civil War in 30 seconds.

Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:27 pm**

Burn wrote:Civil War in 30 seconds.

LOL. That about summed it up indeed. I can't decide if I was disappointed or not in #7. It seemed like a rush end ... kind of like if a book was canceled. I was surprised that a book experienced various delays during its 7 issue run came to such an abrupt end.

Well, the good thing that came out of reading Civil War was that it got me into ... Astonishing X-Men. I love that book for some reason. I think because it's pretty much a stand alone book that I have been enjoying it so much.

I got out of comics back in 96 after the Onslaught storyline. I was pretty ticked that Marvel had killed off all of those characters in a move basically to relaunch a variety of books with bunch of the ex-Marvel guys from Image. I think I felt betrayed by my loyalty to Marvel more than anything for trying to bring any of those guys back. Civil War was technically my first non-Transformers comic I had bought in 10 years.

After a conversation with a few of the guys at Graham Cracker comics on Clark here in Chicago, they encouraged me to get Thanos Quest 1 & 2 (after I told them that I had really enjoyed the Inifinity Gauntlet the most during the 90s) and Astonishing X-Men (after I told them that I had been primarily an X-Man fan during that period). I've been thrilled with what I've been reading.

Posted: **Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:16 pm**

Seibertron wrote:
Burn wrote:Civil War in 30 seconds.

LOL. That about summed it up indeed. I can't decide if I was disappointed or not in #7. It seemed like a rush end ...

The writers have pretty much said that this was the ending planned from the beginning.

After a conversation with a few of the guys at Graham Cracker comics on Clark here in Chicago, they encouraged me to get Thanos Quest 1 & 2 (after I told them that I had really enjoyed the Inifinity Gauntlet the most during the 90s) and Astonishing X-Men (after I told them that I had been primarily an X-Man fan during that period). I've been thrilled with what I've been reading.

I can get you digital copies of the most recent Thanos stories if you want (I'm a big Thanos fan as well).

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:22 am**

General Magnus wrote:I wonder how optimus would react. I can see him sidding with Cap and Grimock with Adolf Stark

jetfire would have gone with cap also, with magnus going to starks' side.

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:48 pm**

Checklist for The Initiative if anyone's interested.

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:50 pm**

ionacus wrote:
General Magnus wrote:I wonder how optimus would react. I can see him sidding with Cap and Grimock with Adolf Stark

jetfire would have gone with cap also, with magnus going to starks' side.

and it wouldn´t be a suprise for me if Stark hired the Combaticons too.

something like this:

Alied with cap:
Optimus Prime
Ironhide
Jetfire
Hot Rod
Thundercraker
Metroplex
Protecotbots (Defensor)

Alied with Stark:
Grimlock and the Dinobots
Bruticus (Combaticons)
Skywarp
Ultra Magnus
Springer
Starscream

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:44 pm**

Burn wrote:Checklist for The Initiative if anyone's interested.

Thanks burn. Now I need to get these things.

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:50 pm**

General Magnus wrote:
ionacus wrote:
General Magnus wrote:I wonder how optimus would react. I can see him sidding with Cap and Grimock with Adolf Stark

jetfire would have gone with cap also, with magnus going to starks' side.

and it wouldn´t be a suprise for me if Stark hired the Combaticons too.

something like this:

Alied with cap:
Optimus Prime
Ironhide
Jetfire
Hot Rod
Thundercraker
Metroplex
Protecotbots (Defensor)

Alied with Stark:
Grimlock and the Dinobots
Bruticus (Combaticons)
Skywarp
Ultra Magnus
Springer
Starscream

Grimlock hates authority...unless it's his own.

And why in heaven's name would the Transformers care; they aren't American citizens.

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:54 pm**

it´s just a what if cenario

Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:37 pm**

Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:55 am**

Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.

You're so full of **** dude, no offense. Here's a list of Amendments in the Bill of Rights that were violated by the enforcement of registration. (Note: Spider-man is a citizen of the US, so even if you consider him a weapon before being a person these rights still apply to him.)

Amendment II:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Violated

Amendment IV:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Violated

Amendment V:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Violated

Amendment VI:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Violated

Amendment VIII:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Violated

Amendment X:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Violated

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:12 am**

God Sunstreaker wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.

You're so full of **** dude, no offense.

I, um, am going to have to disagree.

Now, on to your argument; you can't paraphrase the Amendments. That will lead to an interpretation out of context.

I will give you this. Due process was indeed violated in some cases, unless of course the President had declared an actual 'state of war'. I don't know if that was detailed.

At any rate, listing the Amendments and writing VIOLATED after them proves nothing. Site some examples so we can discuss them in a civilized way.

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:13 pm**

Counterpunch wrote:
God Sunstreaker wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.

You're so full of **** dude, no offense.

I, um, am going to have to disagree.

Now, on to your argument; you can't paraphrase the Amendments. That will lead to an interpretation out of context.

I will give you this. Due process was indeed violated in some cases, unless of course the President had declared an actual 'state of war'. I don't know if that was detailed.

At any rate, listing the Amendments and writing VIOLATED after them proves nothing. Site some examples so we can discuss them in a civilized way.

I copied and pasted the entire violated amendment.

You want to talk about it, great. So talk. Go crazy, have fun with it. And keep smiling....this is supposed to be fun.

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:31 pm**

Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.

Autobots, round up the humans and send them to a harsh alternate dimension prison just because they are just suddenly illegal because a corrupt member of Damage Control gave Nitro some power boosting drugs and he blew up alot of innocent people.

No..Prime wouldn't be doing that. Rodimus maybe (Chaar anyone?) But Prime'd come along and fix that easily. No, Optimus would have been rolling down the streets with Cap at the wheel. Tony'd be wondering why he sided with a Winnebago with Prime envy.

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:31 pm**

Dynamax wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.
Autobots, round up the humans and send them to a harsh alternate dimension prison just because they are just suddenly illegal because a corrupt member of Damage Control gave Nitro some power boosting drugs and he blew up alot of innocent people.

No..Prime wouldn't be doing that. Rodimus maybe (Chaar anyone?) But Prime'd come along and fix that easily. No, Optimus would have been rolling down the streets with Cap at the wheel. Tony'd be wondering why he sided with a Winnebago with Prime envy.

optimus would tell stark that that he couldnt let humans get involved with the autobots war. then stark would say something like, well, we dont have time for your war so right now its over, and then blast prime. it is pretty much what he did to cage and spider woman

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:20 pm**

ionacus wrote:
Dynamax wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:Transformers, well, the Autobots anyway, were all about protecting the innocent.

That means they'd side with Ironman. Especially since the freedom being taken away were all in Cap's head.
Autobots, round up the humans and send them to a harsh alternate dimension prison just because they are just suddenly illegal because a corrupt member of Damage Control gave Nitro some power boosting drugs and he blew up alot of innocent people.

No..Prime wouldn't be doing that. Rodimus maybe (Chaar anyone?) But Prime'd come along and fix that easily. No, Optimus would have been rolling down the streets with Cap at the wheel. Tony'd be wondering why he sided with a Winnebago with Prime envy.

optimus would tell stark that that he couldnt let humans get involved with the autobots war. then stark would say something like, well, we dont have time for your war so right now its over, and then blast prime. it is pretty much what he did to cage and spider woman

Unless Furman wrote it, the Galvatron'd side with IronMan, and Grimlock'd save the day, becoming the new Avenger leader.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:16 am**

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

:cry:

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:35 pm**

Counterpunch wrote::shock:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

Add a SPOILER to that link dude....

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:12 pm**

God Sunstreaker wrote:
Counterpunch wrote::shock:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

Add a SPOILER to that link dude....

Counterpunch wrote:The title said SPOILERS. You had your warning...

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:29 pm**

Counterpunch wrote:
God Sunstreaker wrote:
Counterpunch wrote::shock:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

Add a SPOILER to that link dude....

Counterpunch wrote:The title said SPOILERS. You had your warning...

It takes like a minute to edit your post. What's the big deal? I'd do it myself if I could.

And it's a new piece of info that comes after Civil War #7. If someone read #7 and came into the thread knowing everything that happened in that comic, expecting to discuss it, then clicked your link, they'd be spoiled by the new info. Have a little respect for the rest of the readers.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:41 pm**

Why.....all I can say is why?

Why like that? He deserved better.

Posted: **Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:46 pm**

i am shocked. why did this happen? at least we know who the fallen son is now. LONG LIVE CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!!

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Civil War #7 SPOILER DISCUSSION