The Energon Pub

If the Kickstarter does not reach it's Eighty grand goal. What becomes of the money from the backers? Does PWTT keep the money? Is PWTT allowed to keep the money from the backers and use it towards a restarted kickstarter goal count down?

Can PWTT say thanks for the $35,000. Since we didn't meet the goal of $80,000. We will be using your money to create only only Figure from the kickstarter.

Is their a way to back out of the preorder on the PWTT kickstarter if the goal is not met. and before PWTT uses all the money to make just one toy instead of 20 different toys.

Tsutsukakushi wrote::-? If the Kickstarter does not reach it's Eighty grand goal. What becomes of the money from the backers? Does PWTT keep the money and tell everyone T-shirts are coming thanks for your support?

Is PWTT allowed to keep the money from the backers and use it towards a restarted kickstarter goal count down?

Can PWTT say thanks for the $35,000. Since we didn't meet the goal of $80,000. We will be using your money to create only only Figure from the kickstarter.

Is their a way to back out of the preorder on the PWTT kickstarter if the goal is not met. and before PWTT uses all the money to make just one toy instead of 20 different toys.

Just some advice, Backers can call their credit card companies and change their credit card account numbers. To prevent PWTT from charging their credit cards.

From the little bit that I know about kickstarter, they dont charge your credit cards unless they reach their initial goal. Its like a pre order but instead of the investors putting their money on the line like real businessmen, they dump the production costs on the fans in a group effort. If the project fails, then the company writes a politically correct e-mail blaming the fandom in general for lack of support. And everybody who did support gets a pat on the back. Thats a crappy business model in my opinion. Sure it can work and make some broke designers pipe dreams a reality. But unlike the traditional route, the kickstarter concept is risk free. Its basically the anti-entrapanuer route. Im negative about it because I like to see talk backed up by the talkers own money.

Rated X wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote::-? If the Kickstarter does not reach it's Eighty grand goal. What becomes of the money from the backers? Does PWTT keep the money and tell everyone T-shirts are coming thanks for your support?

Is PWTT allowed to keep the money from the backers and use it towards a restarted kickstarter goal count down?

Can PWTT say thanks for the $35,000. Since we didn't meet the goal of $80,000. We will be using your money to create only only Figure from the kickstarter.

Is their a way to back out of the preorder on the PWTT kickstarter if the goal is not met. and before PWTT uses all the money to make just one toy instead of 20 different toys.

Just some advice, Backers can call their credit card companies and change their credit card account numbers. To prevent PWTT from charging their credit cards.

From the little bit that I know about kickstarter, they dont charge your credit cards unless they reach their initial goal. Its like a pre order but instead of the investors putting their money on the line like real businessmen, they dump the production costs on the fans in a group effort. If the project fails, then the company writes a politically correct e-mail blaming the fandom in general for lack of support. And everybody who did support gets a pat on the back. Thats a crappy business model in my opinion. Sure it can work and make some broke designers pipe dreams a reality. But unlike the traditional route, the kickstarter concept is risk free. Its basically the anti-entrapanuer route. Im negative about it because I like to see talk backed up by the talkers own money.

You couldn't be more wrong, X. Kickstarter is about as pro-entrepreneur as possible. We've been around and around about this before. Why do you continue to think like this? There is really zero risk for us that back the Kickstarter. Are you really put off about receiving a letter stating that there wasn't enough support? Because that's probably the only negative we backers will have, other than the disappointment about not getting the figure or figures we'd like to see. There is literally no risk of backers losing money because the goal is not met.

This is also low risk for the project authors as they get to gather the interest from the fandom in a real way. They are only out the time and money to get things to a stage to run the kickstarter.

Seriously, you two (X and Tsut) have been spamming this thread to no end with your negative comments. We all know your positions on the figures and Kickstarter. When will you be willing to leave over and let the rest of us talk about this without the incessant negativity? You are really not contributing anything more to the thread.

Thank you in advance!

Agamemnon wrote: Seriously, you two (X and Tsut) have been spamming this thread to no end with your negative comments. We all know your positions on the figures and Kickstarter. When will you be willing to leave over and let the rest of us talk about this without the incessant negativity? You are really not contributing anything more to the thread.

I'm pretty sure if KFC creates anymore Masterpiece TF toys. Those KFC MP threads will be dominated by others with mostly bashing comments on the toys.

The trolling with lies about how Kickstarter works hidden in the forms of questions is annoying and obvious.

For the non-trolls, I just started WikiAlpha pages for Calaminous Haagenti and King Adder.

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/Calaminous_Haagenti

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/King_Adder

BTW - 43% to the goal! The web sites Kicktraq.com and Kickspy.com are both reporting their that they expect this Kickstarter campaign will reach it's goals and unlock several stretch goals before the end. They estimate at least the first two goals on Kickspy and say there is potential for most of the goals on Kicktraq.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Agamemnon wrote: Seriously, you two (X and Tsut) have been spamming this thread to no end with your negative comments. We all know your positions on the figures and Kickstarter. When will you be willing to leave over and let the rest of us talk about this without the incessant negativity? You are really not contributing anything more to the thread.

I'm pretty sure if KFC creates anymore Masterpiece TF toys. Those KFC MP threads will be dominated by others with mostly bashing comments on the toys.

[Off Topic] And that makes it okay to do in either thread? I will be PM-ing you with data that disputes this notion, Tsut, as soon as I post this. I cataloged the overly negative posts (not just critical as it is possible to be critical without being overly negative) in both this 20-page thread and the KFC Citizen Stacks thread. (This was timely for me as I was looking to gather some data for a Master's Class project I am working on. I just needed some miscellaneous data to work with. If anyone else wants to see this data, feel free to PM me.) I do not want to take this off-topic much more, and I hope this can put this subject to rest. Thanks![/Off Topic]

Scaleface wrote:BTW - 43% to the goal! The web sites Kicktraq.com and Kickspy.com are both reporting their that they expect this Kickstarter campaign will reach it's goals and unlock several stretch goals before the end. They estimate at least the first two goals on Kickspy and say there is potential for most of the goals on Kicktraq.

Oooohhhh, more juicy data to look at, while I'm in the mood. Thanks for posting this, Scaleface!

And, yes, I know that I am very, very weird...

Scaleface wrote:The trolling with lies about how Kickstarter works hidden in the forms of questions is annoying and obvious.

For the non-trolls, I just started WikiAlpha pages for Calaminous Haagenti and King Adder.

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/Calaminous_Haagenti

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/King_Adder

BTW - 43% to the goal! The web sites Kicktraq.com and Kickspy.com are both reporting their that they expect this Kickstarter campaign will reach it's goals and unlock several stretch goals before the end. They estimate at least the first two goals on Kickspy and say there is potential for most of the goals on Kicktraq.

You forgot to mention the most important data for this Kickstarter. The first 12 hours of day One saw the biggest money pledges, around 80%. While the second 12 hours of the first day saw a steep decline in sales pledges, around barely 20%.

If the steep decline in money pledges continues, Then it's easy to speculate based on the data. This kickstarter will not reach it's Eighty Grand goal.

Just seems like that most who wanted these toys, hurried up to pledge their money as soon as the kickstarter went online.

Most calculated these PWTT toys would reach a very narrow market of buyers. It's doubtful their are many holding out on their pledges.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Scaleface wrote:The trolling with lies about how Kickstarter works hidden in the forms of questions is annoying and obvious.

For the non-trolls, I just started WikiAlpha pages for Calaminous Haagenti and King Adder.

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/Calaminous_Haagenti

http://en.wikialpha.org/wiki/King_Adder

BTW - 43% to the goal! The web sites Kicktraq.com and Kickspy.com are both reporting their that they expect this Kickstarter campaign will reach it's goals and unlock several stretch goals before the end. They estimate at least the first two goals on Kickspy and say there is potential for most of the goals on Kicktraq.

You forgot to mention the most important data for this Kickstarter. The first 12 hours of day One saw the biggest money pledges, around 80%. While the second 12 hours of the first day saw a steep decline in sales pledges, around barely 20%.

If the steep decline in money pledges continues, Then it's easy to speculate based on the data. This kickstarter will not reach it's Eighty Grand goal.

Indeed, one day is not enough time to evaluate an overall trend. I'd like to see around 3-5 days to see what the overall trend might be. Additionally, to do some real statistical analysis on this, I'd love to see hourly data in the contributions posted, not just the overall contribution level. That may shed some more light on the trends.

Additionally, some comparison graphs to other, similar projects and how their initial day or three went for contribution levels would help to give an indication of future trends. (Past performance not guaranteeing future results and all that disclaimer jazz.)

Also, how about weekends? Do they impact how contributions are made? Does the time of year factor? There's a lot to look at, and we are just a matter of a few dozen hours into this Kickstarter. Even from a statistical analysis perspective, there is not much we can tell right at this point.

Or didn't you want to look at it like this, Tsut?

Kicktraq and Kickspy are professional Kickstarter analysis sites and they update their predictions regularly.

All Kickstarters start with a rush then slow, then surge a bit when goals unlock, and surge again near the end. They take that into account for analysis. There are other action figure campaigns and they do exactly the same.

Indeed, I am very curious to see their analysis on Monday. At this time, the trend line seems to be only accounting for the first day. I say "seems" as I am only reading the graph at this time. I wasn't able to quickly find any other metrics. I'll defer to their metric analysis on Monday.

That said, after a day and a half, they are at 44% (over $35k as of this post). Gut feeling is that this is an awesome start! But, I will defer to the experts in Kickstarter analysis.

Agamemnon wrote:

Rated X wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote::-? If the Kickstarter does not reach it's Eighty grand goal. What becomes of the money from the backers? Does PWTT keep the money and tell everyone T-shirts are coming thanks for your support?

Is PWTT allowed to keep the money from the backers and use it towards a restarted kickstarter goal count down?

Can PWTT say thanks for the $35,000. Since we didn't meet the goal of $80,000. We will be using your money to create only only Figure from the kickstarter.

Is their a way to back out of the preorder on the PWTT kickstarter if the goal is not met. and before PWTT uses all the money to make just one toy instead of 20 different toys.

Just some advice, Backers can call their credit card companies and change their credit card account numbers. To prevent PWTT from charging their credit cards.

From the little bit that I know about kickstarter, they dont charge your credit cards unless they reach their initial goal. Its like a pre order but instead of the investors putting their money on the line like real businessmen, they dump the production costs on the fans in a group effort. If the project fails, then the company writes a politically correct e-mail blaming the fandom in general for lack of support. And everybody who did support gets a pat on the back. Thats a crappy business model in my opinion. Sure it can work and make some broke designers pipe dreams a reality. But unlike the traditional route, the kickstarter concept is risk free. Its basically the anti-entrapanuer route. Im negative about it because I like to see talk backed up by the talkers own money.

You couldn't be more wrong, X. Kickstarter is about as pro-entrepreneur as possible. We've been around and around about this before. Why do you continue to think like this? There is really zero risk for us that back the Kickstarter. Are you really put off about receiving a letter stating that there wasn't enough support? Because that's probably the only negative we backers will have, other than the disappointment about not getting the figure or figures we'd like to see. There is literally no risk of backers losing money because the goal is not met.

This is also low risk for the project authors as they get to gather the interest from the fandom in a real way. They are only out the time and money to get things to a stage to run the kickstarter.

Seriously, you two (X and Tsut) have been spamming this thread to no end with your negative comments. We all know your positions on the figures and Kickstarter. When will you be willing to leave over and let the rest of us talk about this without the incessant negativity? You are really not contributing anything more to the thread.

Thank you in advance!

I got no issue with the buyers not taking any financial risks. My issue is with PWTT not taking any financial risks. I believe in making a dollar out of 15 cents. But I dont believe in coming around empty handed trying to flip someone elses money. I dont call kickstarter entrapanuership. I call it being cheap and using the fans. For all we know these former Hasbro employees are all broke after Hasbro gave them the boot. Maybe...or maybe not. But they are trying to pimp everybody into financing their venture. Thats how I see it.

On a side note I love how Scaleface sidestepped my comment with the "troll" response. Is he a biased journalist who only starts threads about PWTT products ? Or will he come clean and admit that he is blatantly advertising PWTT and not really here to report "news". I say this because earlier in one of these threads he claimed to be reporting the news. But he is getting to be like CNN where they cover only one story 24-7. I would have no issue if he just said "yeah Im pushing PWTT, those are my boys". But to call these threads journalism as he has done earlier on is ludacris.

Before Kickstarter, if a company wanted to start up, they had to get investment from some where, most likely banks.

If the business didn't hold up it's end of the deal, the bank would step in, sell up assets, and absorb any losses. Workers and suppliers also lost out.

Kickstarter guarantees a return for investors. Kickstarter start ups do their maths, they work out how much money they need to meet their promises AND make a profit for themselves.

If they don't get the money, the project doesn't proceed. They lose the time they invested in preparing the business model.

So yes, PWTT have taken a financial risk by investing their time (and no doubt some of their own money) to come up with this Kickstarter proposal.

Also, lay off Scaleface. If he chooses to only post about PWTT that's his decision. It is NOT your place to question his motives. Any further discussion on THAT particular matter will be considered harassment and appropriate action will be taken.

So, let me see if I have this correct, X. You object to the order in which the money flows, am I correct? Are these the two scenarios in which you are saying that one is okay by your standards and the other is not?

Scenario 1, X-preferred
PWTToo invests $80k into tooling and production of figures, which they do not know the interest of outside of comments on Facebook and, perhaps, pre-orders at retail locations. (I am leaving out other costs as they would likely be incurred regardless of which method is used.) Production quantities are based on market research and best guesses. Then, customers purchase the products at a retail location, with potentially left over stock or shortages based on how accurate the guesses were earlier. PWTToo only receives money based on what is ordered from them by the retailers. Left over stock is either absorbed by the retailers or sent back to the manufacturer. Costs to the end customer may be about the same. (Let's say they are for the sake of this argument, to limit the number of variables.)

Scenario 2, Kickstarter backed
PWTToo sets $80k as a goal on Kickstarter. People pledge money to the Kickstarter, allowing PWTToo tpo see the number of "confirmed" sales. (No possibility of customer backing out of pre-order like might happen in the above scenario.) Production quantities are based on the actual interest from customers. Little to no overages are expected (with the exception of any stores that would purchase quantities to sell directly to customers). If interest is not there, with the $80k goal not met, then no production happens, and PWTToo and the customers are not out the $80k. (I haven't checked the fine print at Kickstarter. I assume there is a percentage of the goal that Kickstarter gets, but I do not know if this is collected regardless of meeting goal. So, PWTToo might be out this money, which could be a factor.)

Am I missing anything in either scenario? Now, tell me, which one do you think is non-friendly to entrepreneurs? Which one is too risky to customers?

I am really trying to understand your opposition to the whole Kickstarter concept, and to this project in particular. I do apologize to everyone if this is too far off-topic. I'll be happy to take this discussion to PM, X, if you want...

Thanks

Checking several other action figure kickstarter histories on Kicktraq, I see that every single one had a first day rush, and a second day lul. First full day is always the biggest with people who were waiting for the campaign to start cashing in the first day.

I should also point out that even if Play With This Too has a day like today every day for the rest of the 29 days, they will exceed their initial goal and unlock the first stretch goal!

Agamemnon wrote:So, let me see if I have this correct, X. You object to the order in which the money flows, am I correct? Are these the two scenarios in which you are saying that one is okay by your standards and the other is not?

Scenario 1, X-preferred
PWTToo invests $80k into tooling and production of figures, which they do not know the interest of outside of comments on Facebook and, perhaps, pre-orders at retail locations. (I am leaving out other costs as they would likely be incurred regardless of which method is used.) Production quantities are based on market research and best guesses. Then, customers purchase the products at a retail location, with potentially left over stock or shortages based on how accurate the guesses were earlier. PWTToo only receives money based on what is ordered from them by the retailers. Left over stock is either absorbed by the retailers or sent back to the manufacturer. Costs to the end customer may be about the same. (Let's say they are for the sake of this argument, to limit the number of variables.)

Scenario 2, Kickstarter backed
PWTToo sets $80k as a goal on Kickstarter. People pledge money to the Kickstarter, allowing PWTToo tpo see the number of "confirmed" sales. (No possibility of customer backing out of pre-order like might happen in the above scenario.) Production quantities are based on the actual interest from customers. Little to no overages are expected (with the exception of any stores that would purchase quantities to sell directly to customers). If interest is not there, with the $80k goal not met, then no production happens, and PWTToo and the customers are not out the $80k. (I haven't checked the fine print at Kickstarter. I assume there is a percentage of the goal that Kickstarter gets, but I do not know if this is collected regardless of meeting goal. So, PWTToo might be out this money, which could be a factor.)

Am I missing anything in either scenario? Now, tell me, which one do you think is non-friendly to entrepreneurs? Which one is too risky to customers?

I am really trying to understand your opposition to the whole Kickstarter concept, and to this project in particular. I do apologize to everyone if this is too far off-topic. I'll be happy to take this discussion to PM, X, if you want...

Thanks

How about the other option that most fans guess some 3rd party companies use to fund their projects.

Which is having some imports sites do preorders for almost a year or having import sites put up the funds in advance to pay for their projects.

Many fans speculate that BBTS, TFsource, Chimungmung and other sites fund some of these 3rd party projects months or year in advance. Read somewhere that some 3rd parties require that some import sites buy a certain number of units in advance like retailers do. So these 3rd parties can lower the cost on each toy by making more toys at the factory on the assembly runs. Wondering if PWTT tried this option. or if they did and got no's from some imports sites.

Other options, Could of been PWTT partnering up with a few conventions. To sell some of their PWTT toys exclusively at these conventions. Think these Conventions might have been willing to pay for everything almost a year in advance.

The last and obvious option. Could of been PWTT creating a selling web site. Where they created pre-orders for these PWTT toys. Then told everyone when you do a preorder, you pay for the item instantly. then say, if the number of sales is not their for production, then everyone will get their money refunded.

Like some here are guessing. It might be a bit risky trying to fund a project on Kickstarter. as they might take a huge percentage of sales. Maybe charge a big fee for using their site regardless if the kickstarter gets funded or not.

Would really like PWTT or someone else who has experiences with doing stuff on Kickstarter. to explain the fees if any, that Kickstarter charges when buyers do business with them.

If you want TF toys funded the old way, there are plenty. Play With This Too is trying something else, something that has worked for other action figure lines. In fact checking the history I see at least 11 action figure Kickstarters that have funded, and only a few that failed. In fact about 2-3 time as many action figures fund as fail on Kickstarter.

Checking the the failed ones for a moment:

Guru Toyz Military - Copycat female GI Joe style figures with big ta-tas. Biggest day only raised a little over $900 dollars. Failed and eventually sought funding from investors and made a couple figures the old fashioned way.

Eon Quest - Very simple original 5 inch sci-fi figures, I liked these guys, but they only raised $1,000 in 30 days out of the $70,000 goal. People wanted 6 inch and more articulation.

Cryptid Action Figures - First kickstarter failed, barely raised a dime. Came back several times improving the figures with better sculpts, until they did fund. (yes, you can re-kickstart, and re-kickstart again as much as you like!)

Another fun one to look at is the Amazing Heroes Kickstarter. pulp comic hero figures. They funded, but didn't quite reach all their stretch goals. They just IMMEDIATELY set up a second campaign with the former stretch goals added to it. It had a very low funding goal, so it reached the goal right away. They added the orders from the second campaign to the first one so they could all be made at the factory together!

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:So, let me see if I have this correct, X. You object to the order in which the money flows, am I correct? Are these the two scenarios in which you are saying that one is okay by your standards and the other is not?

Scenario 1, X-preferred
PWTToo invests $80k into tooling and production of figures, which they do not know the interest of outside of comments on Facebook and, perhaps, pre-orders at retail locations. (I am leaving out other costs as they would likely be incurred regardless of which method is used.) Production quantities are based on market research and best guesses. Then, customers purchase the products at a retail location, with potentially left over stock or shortages based on how accurate the guesses were earlier. PWTToo only receives money based on what is ordered from them by the retailers. Left over stock is either absorbed by the retailers or sent back to the manufacturer. Costs to the end customer may be about the same. (Let's say they are for the sake of this argument, to limit the number of variables.)

Scenario 2, Kickstarter backed
PWTToo sets $80k as a goal on Kickstarter. People pledge money to the Kickstarter, allowing PWTToo tpo see the number of "confirmed" sales. (No possibility of customer backing out of pre-order like might happen in the above scenario.) Production quantities are based on the actual interest from customers. Little to no overages are expected (with the exception of any stores that would purchase quantities to sell directly to customers). If interest is not there, with the $80k goal not met, then no production happens, and PWTToo and the customers are not out the $80k. (I haven't checked the fine print at Kickstarter. I assume there is a percentage of the goal that Kickstarter gets, but I do not know if this is collected regardless of meeting goal. So, PWTToo might be out this money, which could be a factor.)

Am I missing anything in either scenario? Now, tell me, which one do you think is non-friendly to entrepreneurs? Which one is too risky to customers?

I am really trying to understand your opposition to the whole Kickstarter concept, and to this project in particular. I do apologize to everyone if this is too far off-topic. I'll be happy to take this discussion to PM, X, if you want...

Thanks

How about the other option that most fans guess some 3rd party companies use to fund their projects.

Which is having some imports sites do preorders for almost a year or having import sites put up the funds to pay for the projects.

How is this different from the scenarios I mentioned above, particularly the first one?

[Edit] So, I thought about this again, and it's a combination of the first and second. Really, it's not a whole lot different than the Kickstarter, with the absence of backers like me, and only backers like BBTS. But, I'd like to get in on it too...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Many fans speculate that BBTS, TFsource, Chimungmung and other sites fund some of these 3rd party projects months or year in advance. Read somewhere that some 3rd parties require that some import sites buy a certain number of units in advance like retailers do. So these 3rd parties can lower the cost on each toy by making more toys at the factory on the assembly runs. Wondering if PWTT tried this option. or if they did and got no's from some imports sites.

How is this more entrepreneur friendly than the Kickstarter? That was Rated X's premise...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Other options, Could of been PWTT partnering up with a few conventions. To sell some of their PWTT toys exclusively at these conventions. Think these Conventions might have been willing to pay for everything almost a year in advance.

This is a possibility, but in my opinion, it is not a better option than the Kickstarter.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:The last and obvious option. Could of been PWTT creating a selling web site. Where they created pre-orders for these PWTT toys. Then told everyone when you do a preorder, you pay for the item instantly. then say, if the number of sales is not their for production, then everyone will get their money refunded.

This is virtually what is happening with the Kickstarter, except for the part of needing to refund the money. Again, it would seem that the Kickstarter is much preferable to this option.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Like some here are guessing.

How about if you just use your own opinion instead of trying to validate it by speaking for others?

Tsutsukakushi wrote:It might be a bit risky trying to fund a project on Kickstarter. as they might take a huge percentage of sales. Maybe charge a big fee for using their site regardless if the kickstarter gets funded or not.

Would really like PWTT or someone else who has experiences with doing stuff on Kickstarter. to explain the fees if any, that Kickstarter charges when buyers do business with them.

As has been stated multiple times, there is little to no risk. Okay, I'll do the legwork for you...

Wikipedia wrote:Kickstarter applies a 5% fee on the total amount of the funds raised.[26] Their payments processor applies an additional 3–5% fee.[27] Unlike many forums for fundraising or investment, Kickstarter claims no ownership over the projects and the work they produce. The web pages of projects launched on the site are permanently archived and accessible to the public. After funding is completed, projects and uploaded media cannot be edited or removed from the site.[28]

Kickstarter FAQ wrote:If a project is successfully funded, Kickstarter applies a 5% fee to the funds collected. Our payments processor will also apply payment processing fees (roughly 3-5%). The complete fee breakdowns are available here.

If funding isn't successful, there are no fees.

So, that should answer that question. But I found a couple of other interesting nuggets...

Wikipedia wrote:There is no guarantee that people who post projects on Kickstarter will deliver on their projects, use the money to implement their projects, or that the completed projects will meet backers' expectations. Kickstarter advises backers to use their own judgment on supporting a project. They also warn project leaders that they could be liable for legal damages from backers for failure to deliver on promises.[29] Projects might also fail even after a successful fund raise when creators underestimate the total costs required or technical difficulties to be overcome.[30][31]

Indeed, this is probably the only risk, and there are legal avenues if the project is found to be fraudulent. Heck, this happens in traditional investment projects too. Check out the movie Tucker, the Man and His Dream, a fantastic movie on the real life story of the Tucker car, and you'll get an idea of what the consequences are for failing to pull through on a project.

Kickstarter FAQ wrote:It works. Of the projects that have reached 20% of their funding goal, 81% were successfully funded. Of the projects that have reached 60% of their funding goal, 98% were successfully funded. Projects either make their goal or find little support. There's little in-between.

This is really encouraging for PWTToo!

Now, it took some time to put this together, so my apologies if I am repeating what someone else said in response before I could post.

Agamemnon wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:So, let me see if I have this correct, X. You object to the order in which the money flows, am I correct? Are these the two scenarios in which you are saying that one is okay by your standards and the other is not?

Scenario 1, X-preferred
PWTToo invests $80k into tooling and production of figures, which they do not know the interest of outside of comments on Facebook and, perhaps, pre-orders at retail locations. (I am leaving out other costs as they would likely be incurred regardless of which method is used.) Production quantities are based on market research and best guesses. Then, customers purchase the products at a retail location, with potentially left over stock or shortages based on how accurate the guesses were earlier. PWTToo only receives money based on what is ordered from them by the retailers. Left over stock is either absorbed by the retailers or sent back to the manufacturer. Costs to the end customer may be about the same. (Let's say they are for the sake of this argument, to limit the number of variables.)

Scenario 2, Kickstarter backed
PWTToo sets $80k as a goal on Kickstarter. People pledge money to the Kickstarter, allowing PWTToo tpo see the number of "confirmed" sales. (No possibility of customer backing out of pre-order like might happen in the above scenario.) Production quantities are based on the actual interest from customers. Little to no overages are expected (with the exception of any stores that would purchase quantities to sell directly to customers). If interest is not there, with the $80k goal not met, then no production happens, and PWTToo and the customers are not out the $80k. (I haven't checked the fine print at Kickstarter. I assume there is a percentage of the goal that Kickstarter gets, but I do not know if this is collected regardless of meeting goal. So, PWTToo might be out this money, which could be a factor.)

Am I missing anything in either scenario? Now, tell me, which one do you think is non-friendly to entrepreneurs? Which one is too risky to customers?

I am really trying to understand your opposition to the whole Kickstarter concept, and to this project in particular. I do apologize to everyone if this is too far off-topic. I'll be happy to take this discussion to PM, X, if you want...

Thanks

How about the other option that most fans guess some 3rd party companies use to fund their projects.

Which is having some imports sites do preorders for almost a year or having import sites put up the funds to pay for the projects.

How is this different from the scenarios I mentioned above, particularly the first one?

[Edit] So, I thought about this again, and it's a combination of the first and second. Really, it's not a whole lot different than the Kickstarter, with the absence of backers like me, and only backers like BBTS. But, I'd like to get in on it too...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Many fans speculate that BBTS, TFsource, Chimungmung and other sites fund some of these 3rd party projects months or year in advance. Read somewhere that some 3rd parties require that some import sites buy a certain number of units in advance like retailers do. So these 3rd parties can lower the cost on each toy by making more toys at the factory on the assembly runs. Wondering if PWTT tried this option. or if they did and got no's from some imports sites.

How is this more entrepreneur friendly than the Kickstarter? That was Rated X's premise...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Other options, Could of been PWTT partnering up with a few conventions. To sell some of their PWTT toys exclusively at these conventions. Think these Conventions might have been willing to pay for everything almost a year in advance.

This is a possibility, but in my opinion, it is not a better option than the Kickstarter.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:The last and obvious option. Could of been PWTT creating a selling web site. Where they created pre-orders for these PWTT toys. Then told everyone when you do a preorder, you pay for the item instantly. then say, if the number of sales is not their for production, then everyone will get their money refunded.

This is virtually what is happening with the Kickstarter, except for the part of needing to refund the money. Again, it would seem that the Kickstarter is much preferable to this option.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Like some here are guessing.

How about if you just use your own opinion instead of trying to validate it by speaking for others?

Tsutsukakushi wrote:It might be a bit risky trying to fund a project on Kickstarter. as they might take a huge percentage of sales. Maybe charge a big fee for using their site regardless if the kickstarter gets funded or not.

Would really like PWTT or someone else who has experiences with doing stuff on Kickstarter. to explain the fees if any, that Kickstarter charges when buyers do business with them.

As has been stated multiple times, there is little to no risk. Okay, I'll do the legwork for you...

Wikipedia wrote:Kickstarter applies a 5% fee on the total amount of the funds raised.[26] Their payments processor applies an additional 3–5% fee.[27] Unlike many forums for fundraising or investment, Kickstarter claims no ownership over the projects and the work they produce. The web pages of projects launched on the site are permanently archived and accessible to the public. After funding is completed, projects and uploaded media cannot be edited or removed from the site.[28]

Kickstarter FAQ wrote:If a project is successfully funded, Kickstarter applies a 5% fee to the funds collected. Our payments processor will also apply payment processing fees (roughly 3-5%). The complete fee breakdowns are available here.

If funding isn't successful, there are no fees.

So, that should answer that question. But I found a couple of other interesting nuggets...

Wikipedia wrote:There is no guarantee that people who post projects on Kickstarter will deliver on their projects, use the money to implement their projects, or that the completed projects will meet backers' expectations. Kickstarter advises backers to use their own judgment on supporting a project. They also warn project leaders that they could be liable for legal damages from backers for failure to deliver on promises.[29] Projects might also fail even after a successful fund raise when creators underestimate the total costs required or technical difficulties to be overcome.[30][31]

Indeed, this is probably the only risk, and there are legal avenues if the project is found to be fraudulent. Heck, this happens in traditional investment projects too. Check out the movie Tucker, the Man and His Dream, a fantastic movie on the real life story of the Tucker car, and you'll get an idea of what the consequences are for failing to pull through on a project.

Kickstarter FAQ wrote:It works. Of the projects that have reached 20% of their funding goal, 81% were successfully funded. Of the projects that have reached 60% of their funding goal, 98% were successfully funded. Projects either make their goal or find little support. There's little in-between.

This is really encouraging for PWTToo!

Now, it took some time to put this together, so my apologies if I am repeating what someone else said in response before I could post.

Don't agree with the first part of your reply. As I think all of those Kickstarter fees can add up and be expensive. Think all of these kickstarter fees remind me of how ebay and paypal ripp off it's sellers. Example, If this Kickstarter charges 10% in all it's fees, That's $8,000 PWTT has to pay this Kickstarter site if the $80,000 fund goal is met.

Just think PWTT with all it's Hasbro connections. Could of contacted TFSource, BBTS, Captured Prey, Toyarena, Chimung, Robot kingdom or and some conventions. Then ask them to create, pay for right now preorders, for all of these PWTT toys. Let the preorders be on the sites for a few months. Then gather all the money and give it to the factories to create these toys. This option would of meant PWTT paid no site selling hosting fees like Kickstarter and ebay charges.

Now on to the Second part of your reply. gotta say i'm impressed. Thanks for finding all of those answers to the questions I had regarding this Kickstarter site fees.

The 10% fee can be factored in the overall goal costs. Kickstarter has to make money too. I don't think that's necessarily a ripoff when considering the services Kickstarter provides. (Similar arguments can be made for eBay. And in both cases, the popularity of the sites as methods of both selling/promoting a project and buying/backing a project can point to it's legitimacy.) It's a free country, and thus far, Kickstarter's reception has been pretty darn positive. (As has eBay's.)

The difference between using Kickstarter and the method of going around to all those retailers is risk. Many of those retailers will protect their customers against risk associated with purchasing figures. And your method would eliminate BBTS entirely as they do not collect money for pre-orders. (I think some of the others you mentioned are similar in their policies, requiring a massive change in such policies.) The risk in your proposed methods are much higher.

Ultimately, there are several methods with which PWTToo could have proceeded. They chose the Kickstarter route, which I think many of us have justified well. (I'm actually surprised I have held on to this debate this long. But as I said before, I am using some of this in my Master's Class project. Don't worry, I'm changing names to protect the innocent.) Indeed, some other methods are viable as has been shown by companies like MMC, FP, et. al. However, part of the entrepreneurial spirit is trying new methods and seeing if success can be obtained.

Rather than poo pooing it nearly every step of the way, why not stand back and enjoy the ride? I have no idea if it will succeed or not. But, I'm loving the show so far. What is the motivation in continuing to push for the other methods? It's not like PWTToo is going to change their mind because of an Internet debate.

Back to the actual figures! I just noticed that SKULL-[omitted] is in the first stretch goal. Woot! If I read it correctly, and I think they said so in the video, the head shots come with the head display stands, right Scaleface? Otherwise, the extra $25 for the three heads is giving me a slight pause...

Burn wrote:Before Kickstarter, if a company wanted to start up, they had to get investment from some where, most likely banks.

If the business didn't hold up it's end of the deal, the bank would step in, sell up assets, and absorb any losses. Workers and suppliers also lost out.

Kickstarter guarantees a return for investors. Kickstarter start ups do their maths, they work out how much money they need to meet their promises AND make a profit for themselves.

If they don't get the money, the project doesn't proceed. They lose the time they invested in preparing the business model.

So yes, PWTT have taken a financial risk by investing their time (and no doubt some of their own money) to come up with this Kickstarter proposal.

Also, lay off Scaleface. If he chooses to only post about PWTT that's his decision. It is NOT your place to question his motives. Any further discussion on THAT particular matter will be considered harassment and appropriate action will be taken.

Understood. But you must admit, calling someone a "troll" just because they don't share the views of 5-7 other guys is getting a bit redundant. I'd like to think of myself as being "outspoken".

Agamemnon wrote:So, let me see if I have this correct, X. You object to the order in which the money flows, am I correct? Are these the two scenarios in which you are saying that one is okay by your standards and the other is not?

Scenario 1, X-preferred
PWTToo invests $80k into tooling and production of figures, which they do not know the interest of outside of comments on Facebook and, perhaps, pre-orders at retail locations. (I am leaving out other costs as they would likely be incurred regardless of which method is used.) Production quantities are based on market research and best guesses. Then, customers purchase the products at a retail location, with potentially left over stock or shortages based on how accurate the guesses were earlier. PWTToo only receives money based on what is ordered from them by the retailers. Left over stock is either absorbed by the retailers or sent back to the manufacturer. Costs to the end customer may be about the same. (Let's say they are for the sake of this argument, to limit the number of variables.)

Scenario 2, Kickstarter backed
PWTToo sets $80k as a goal on Kickstarter. People pledge money to the Kickstarter, allowing PWTToo tpo see the number of "confirmed" sales. (No possibility of customer backing out of pre-order like might happen in the above scenario.) Production quantities are based on the actual interest from customers. Little to no overages are expected (with the exception of any stores that would purchase quantities to sell directly to customers). If interest is not there, with the $80k goal not met, then no production happens, and PWTToo and the customers are not out the $80k. (I haven't checked the fine print at Kickstarter. I assume there is a percentage of the goal that Kickstarter gets, but I do not know if this is collected regardless of meeting goal. So, PWTToo might be out this money, which could be a factor.)

Am I missing anything in either scenario? Now, tell me, which one do you think is non-friendly to entrepreneurs? Which one is too risky to customers?

I am really trying to understand your opposition to the whole Kickstarter concept, and to this project in particular. I do apologize to everyone if this is too far off-topic. I'll be happy to take this discussion to PM, X, if you want...

Thanks

Scenario 1 works for me fine. That’s the traditional way. While scenario 2 might be a crafty new wave way of making dreams come true, nothing screams “business” better than the almighty dollar. I respect financial investment. It’s called going all in. Maybe it’s my mentality and upbringing, but I just don’t respect begging for money online. (AKA pledging) To me entrepreneurship is all about investing the capital you already have and making it grow. But when you don’t have the cash and you persuade someone else to invest into your dream, you’re not an entrepreneur. You’re a pimp. They should rename the whole website “Pimpstarter”

So, you're saying unless I have money, I should not be an entrepreneur? Most have to "beg money" from someone to invest. Traditionally that's banks. Sometimes that's rich "friends." How is this any different? Yes, it's a clever new way to find investors, but it's very innovative. And no one is forcing us to invest. It's all voluntary.

Just because it's new and unfamiliar doesn't really warrant such name calling, does it?

There's nothing new about this at all. People have been investing money into start up companies for decades, hell, they've probably been doing it longer.

This is just a DIFFERENT way of doing it.

Sure it would be great to already have the money to start up a business, but why should those who have a great idea but no money not be denied the opportunity to get a bit of a hand up?

What world would we be living in if all ideas relied solely on the already rich?

Seriously ... I'm going to be "outspoken", but only the already rich should be allowed to invest? That's **** stupid.

Burn wrote:There's nothing new about this at all. People have been investing money into start up companies for decades, hell, they've probably been doing it longer.

This is just a DIFFERENT way of doing it.

Sure it would be great to already have the money to start up a business, but why should those who have a great idea but no money not be denied the opportunity to get a bit of a hand up?

What world would we be living in if all ideas relied solely on the already rich?

Seriously ... I'm going to be "outspoken", but only the already rich should be allowed to invest? That's **** stupid.

It doesn't have anything to do with being rich or poor. If you flip your own dividends, whether its dollars or millions of dollars, you're an entrepreneur. When you persuade other people to flip their own dividends for your profit, you're a pimp. It's that simple. There's nothing wrong with pimping if you call it what it is. But when you disguise it as entrepreneurship, you're kidding yourself. We don't know if PWTT are rich or poor. All we know is they didn't want to go the traditional route which has brought so many 3rd parties success on their debut products. So one is only left to speculate why they chose Kickstarter. I speculate that they have the money but not 100% confidence they would score a home run. For that they should have just gone back to the drawing board. After all, they do draw a lot.

Agamemnon wrote:So, you're saying unless I have money, I should not be an entrepreneur? Most have to "beg money" from someone to invest. Traditionally that's banks. Sometimes that's rich "friends." How is this any different? Yes, it's a clever new way to find investors, but it's very innovative. And no one is forcing us to invest. It's all voluntary.

Just because it's new and unfamiliar doesn't really warrant such name calling, does it?

Taking a loan out from a bank is not begging because you are paying them interest. That's a business transaction. Also while pledging may be voluntary, everything PWTT has done to sell you on that pledge is a form of persuasion. Even if it all succeeds, it's still large scale internet pimping at it's finest.