The Energon Pub

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:33 pm**

Yes it's all God's fault!

So many religions with similar believes, almost all of them believe in a grater being.
But that's not the bad part, very often thy start war against the nonbelievers.

I mean would 80% of the past wars ever been committed if there would be no religion, ore would they still have taken place?

Why not living with an atitude like:
"You don't believe like me? So what!"

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:45 pm**

I resent that, it's Jehovah, Allah and all the other's faults not mine...

:lol:

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:36 pm**

Please tell me you're kidding. You do realize that the VAST majority of wars throughout history were because of the desire to own someone elses land, take their food sources or just down right build yourself an empire to reign over. Not over religion. Please educate yourself with history before trying to start arguments on these boards with people who believe in God. Thank you.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:49 pm**

Even as an atheist, I disagree that 80% of wars were committed in the name of religion. Granted, many wars were waged that used religion as an excuse or a justification, but most were fought for personal gain, for money, or for power.

Besides, it can't be God's fault. There's no proof that God even exists. How can somebody that doesn't exist be at fault for anything?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:57 pm**

Professor Smooth wrote:Even as an atheist, I disagree that 80% of wars were committed in the name of religion. Granted, many wars were waged that used religion as an excuse or a justification, but most were fought for personal gain, for money, or for power.

Besides, it can't be God's fault. There's no proof that God even exists. How can somebody that doesn't exist be at fault for anything?

And unfortunately there are so many variations of religion that it's easy for weak minded men to get sucked up into the whole thing. I tend to believe that even most of the wars that were in the name of God were only said to be in the name of God as an excuse to take power over another people. JMO.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:57 pm**

HoosierDaddy wrote:Please tell me you're kidding. You do realize that the VAST majority of wars throughout history were because of the desire to own someone elses land, take their food sources or just down right build yourself an empire to reign over. Not over religion. Please educate yourself with history before trying to start arguments on these boards with people who believe in God. Thank you.

if god is the creator though isn't it partly his fault? couldn't he have just made more land, and food sources, enough to make everyone live like a king. or just make men less greedy?

if power is responisibilty then is not absolute power absolute responsibility?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:07 pm**

Tammuz wrote:
HoosierDaddy wrote:Please tell me you're kidding. You do realize that the VAST majority of wars throughout history were because of the desire to own someone elses land, take their food sources or just down right build yourself an empire to reign over. Not over religion. Please educate yourself with history before trying to start arguments on these boards with people who believe in God. Thank you.

if god is the creator though isn't it partly his fault? couldn't he have just made more land, and food sources, enough to make everyone live like a king. or just make men less greedy?

if power is responisibilty then is not absolute power absolute responsibility?

I guess that depends on the WAY one believes. The Bible I grew up reading (King James) seems to show that God created life so that all men wouldn't feel equal to each other. There would be some rich and some poor. Some would be healthy and other wouldn't be. But in Gods eyes your rank on Earth has no meaning and the poorest man in Gods eyes is equal to the greatest king. The Earth is the Devils playground and he creates havoc and bad things do happen to good people. But in the end those who endure to pains of life on Earth and retain their faith in God will be rewarded with everlasting life in Heaven. And if a person were to say that it isn't fair to make it so hard on some people and harder on other who don't deserve it. But the Bible explains that it is easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle then it is for a rich man to enter into Heaven. By "rich man" the Bible means a man who was born into a life with everything a man could ever dream of. maybe such as a royal family, or the son/daughter of an oil tycoon. It isn't saying that a person cannot enter Heaven if they are rich but rather that someone who has been handed the best life earth could offer, that man would be unlikely to feel like he needs God and he is less likely to have faith in which to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. So long story short, God I suppose, is at fault for wars and suffering in a way. But life on earth is short and the rewards of eternal life in Heaven make life on Earth a mear blink of an eye. But that's just my beliefs. So many people would give many differant answers.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:14 pm**

And how do you respond to the fact the King James Bible was ordered to be written by a man with an obvious interest in the changes made to the previously accepted document?

In fact, how do you reconcile there being several different versions of the unalterable "word of god" in the first place?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:20 pm**

Professor Smooth wrote:And how do you respond to the fact the King James Bible was ordered to be written by a man with an obvious interest in the changes made to the previously accepted document?

In fact, how do you reconcile there being several different versions of the unalterable "word of god" in the first place?

That is a problem that has caught my interest lately. I have no answer for you. All I can say is that it scares me and I have prayed and asked for direction and for him to give me a way to know that I am doing the right thing. I really don't know right now but I certainly see what you are saying and you are correct and it scares me. We basically believe in something because that is the way we were raised. And other then that it is up to us to dig deeper into it to find the truth. All I've been able to do is pray and ask for guidance.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:20 pm**

HoosierDaddy wrote:
Tammuz wrote:
HoosierDaddy wrote:Please tell me you're kidding. You do realize that the VAST majority of wars throughout history were because of the desire to own someone elses land, take their food sources or just down right build yourself an empire to reign over. Not over religion. Please educate yourself with history before trying to start arguments on these boards with people who believe in God. Thank you.

if god is the creator though isn't it partly his fault? couldn't he have just made more land, and food sources, enough to make everyone live like a king. or just make men less greedy?

if power is responisibilty then is not absolute power absolute responsibility?
I guess that depends on the WAY one believes. The Bible I grew up reading (King James) seems to show that God created life so that all men wouldn't feel equal to each other. There would be some rich and some poor. Some would be healthy and other wouldn't be. But in Gods eyes your rank on Earth has no meaning and the poorest man in Gods eyes is equal to the greatest king. The Earth is the Devils playground and he creates havoc and bad things do happen to good people. But in the end those who endure to pains of life on Earth and retain their faith in God will be rewarded with everlasting life in Heaven. And if a person were to say that it isn't fair to make it so hard on some people and harder on other who don't deserve it. But the Bible explains that it is easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle then it is for a rich man to enter into Heaven. By "rich man" the Bible means a man who was born into a life with everything a man could ever dream of. maybe such as a royal family, or the son/daughter of an oil tycoon. It isn't saying that a person cannot enter Heaven if they are rich but rather that someone who has been handed the best life earth could offer, that man would be unlikely to feel like he needs God and he is less likely to have faith in which to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. So long story short, God I suppose, is at fault for wars and suffering in a way. But life on earth is short and the rewards of eternal life in Heaven make life on Earth a mear blink of an eye. But that's just my beliefs. So many people would give many differant answers.

but why would god make it more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven? you can't choose your pearants. this seems to be setting someone up to fail.

and why make earth the devils playground? seems like a rather irresponsible thing to let happen.

and if heaven if so much greater than earth why even bother with it?

and why is your short life on earth so significant to god? why not make the significant bit long?

and why make people feel unequal, knowing that it breeds contempt amongst us mere humans.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:41 pm**

Tammuz wrote:but why would god make it more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven? you can't choose your pearants. this seems to be setting someone up to fail.

Like I said God doesn't make it harder for a rich man to enter Heaven. The Bible simply says a rich man is less likely to need god and thus never gain faith in him. Without that faith, entry into Heaven is impossible.

and why make earth the devils playground? seems like a rather irresponsible thing to let happen.

Adam and Eve allowed Lucifer to tempt them and disobey God. That was the beginning of sin. Lucifer thought he could overthrow God and God sent Michael to defeat Lucifer and Michael easily defeated him. Then as punishment God force Lucifer and the angels that followed him to Earth. Where he and his minions would live and tempt man until judgement day. Basically, it is Gods way of saying Hey, you have free will. You can choose whatever life you want. You can choose good or evil. You'll know about the good and be tempted by the evil. If you are strong enough to overcome it you will be rewarded with life in heaven.

and if heaven if so much greater than earth why even bother with it?

Because it's so much greater then earth.

and why is your short life on earth so significant to god? why not make the significant bit long?

and why make people feel unequal, knowing that it breeds contempt amongst us mere humans.

Because your life on Earth is what determines whether you are strong enough to make it to Heaven. Your life on earth is significant because this is where you will make your decision on which path you'll follow. When this life is over, you'll be judged and that is it. There are no more chances after this. And people being unequal is just like I explained above. Free will. You can let the fact that your poor be an excuse to be a bad person, or you can use the fact that your poor as an excuse to need God and what he offers to get you through because after this life if you enter Heaven you will know no suffering. After that life on Earth is insignificant.

I have a serious question, have you ever read any of the Bible or had anybody tell you about it? The reason i ask is because the questions you are asking me are pretty common knowledge by people who've at least been introduced to Christian beliefs. Just curious.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:44 pm**

Tammuz wrote:
but why would god make it more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven? you can't choose your pearants. this seems to be setting someone up to fail.

You have to remember that The Bible says that a sinner's children will be made to pay for the mistakes of his/her parents (even unto the third and fourth generations) so this kind of thing is quite the norm for all versions of The Bible.

Tammuz wrote:and why make earth the devils playground? seems like a rather irresponsible thing to let happen.

In studying the different version of The Bible, I have a tough time finding passages saying that Earth is the Devil's playground. There is a passage where God takes credit for evil, though (I'll have to look for it again). And you have to remember that, according to Genesis, God basically wanted human beings to be his pets. When they became self-aware, God condemned the entire human species to lives of pain and suffering, so, again, God's never been shown to be a nice guy in The Bible.

Tammuz wrote:and if heaven if so much greater than earth why even bother with it?

Excellent question. The short answer is that you it's really no bother at all. Human beings, especially the lower level ones, can provide an excellent service to their Lord (divine or otherwise) during their lives. And though it may suck (and believe me, it did) when they die they will go to a place where they won't be in such a lamentable position. So work all day with very little compensation, for your boss, and eventually it'll all be better.

Tammuz wrote:and why is your short life on earth so significant to god? why not make the significant bit long?

If you didn't live this life, then how would God let you use your own free will to decide if you are going to suffer for all eternity (hell), suffer for a very long time (purgatory), or spend eternity basking in God's infinite glory (heaven)?

Tammuz wrote:and why make people feel unequal, knowing that it breeds contempt amongst us mere humans.

You may feel unequal now, but after you have served your bosses faithfully, every day of your life, then you will appreciate the equality that awaits you in the afterlife.

See? The Bible has answers for all of this. They're just not very good answers and they clearly favor the rich and powerful. Kind of like the Harry Potter books, if you think about it.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:55 pm**

Professor Smooth, you have to admit that it is weird how we answered that post almost exactly but from our own points of view! At the same time!

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:15 pm**

I don't know... Responding to posts is the general idea of internet message boards. That post lent itself to being answered in the format that we chose.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:26 pm**

HoosierDaddy wrote:
Tammuz wrote:but why would god make it more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven? you can't choose your pearants. this seems to be setting someone up to fail.

Like I said God doesn't make it harder for a rich man to enter Heaven. The Bible simply says a rich man is less likely to need god and thus never gain faith in him. Without that faith, entry into Heaven is impossible.

you said it was less likely, if god in his omnipotence creates a world in which he knows a man will never need him, why should he judge a that man not worthy? that's kinda like me saying to you, you're not going to heaven becuase you've never worn a sanitary towl...

but still why create them unequally? why not give everybody the same start? all it does is create contempt, sets them up to fail, and makes bad things happen to good people.

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and why make earth the devils playground? seems like a rather irresponsible thing to let happen.
Adam and Eve allowed Lucifer to tempt them and disobey God. That was the beginning of sin. Lucifer thought he could overthrow God and God sent Michael to defeat Lucifer and Michael easily defeated him. Then as punishment God force Lucifer and the angels that followed him to Earth. Where he and his minions would live and tempt man until judgement day. Basically, it is Gods way of saying Hey, you have free will. You can choose whatever life you want. You can choose good or evil. You'll know about the good and be tempted by the evil. If you are strong enough to overcome it you will be rewarded with life in heaven.

right, but through the actions of lucifer(the result of the actions of god), thousands of souls will not ascend to heaven, is that really fair on those souls who without the devil's influence probably might have had a shot, becuase of the devil's lack of forsight?

and do angels have freewill, cuase i'm fairly sure they didn't, so why did lucifer rebel? and why did god create lucifer knowing he'd rebel?

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and if heaven if so much greater than earth why even bother with it?
Because it's so much greater then earth.

i meant earth, why not just skip it and and ascend straight heaven...

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and why is your short life on earth so significant to god? why not make the significant bit long?

and why make people feel unequal, knowing that it breeds contempt amongst us mere humans.
Because your life on Earth is what determines whether you are strong enough to make it to Heaven. Your life on earth is significant because this is where you will make your decision on which path you'll follow. When this life is over, you'll be judged and that is it. There are no more chances after this. And people being unequal is just like I explained above. Free will. You can let the fact that your poor be an excuse to be a bad person, or you can use the fact that your poor as an excuse to need God and what he offers to get you through because after this life if you enter Heaven you will know no suffering. After that life on Earth is insignificant.

so we have to be unequal to have freewill? but surely god could have created free will without evil, or is evil necassary for free will, couldn't an omnipotent being make that other wise? like fat free icecream?

HoosierDaddy wrote:I have a serious question, have you ever read any of the Bible or had anybody tell you about it? The reason i ask is because the questions you are asking me are pretty common knowledge by people who've at least been introduced to Christian beliefs. Just curious.

i'm english, it's part of our school system, and i've been on this forum for 4 years; i just wanted to see if you could come up with some interesting answers rather than the same stuff that doesn't really answer anything.

i just can't get over that an omnipotent, omniscient, & omnibenevolent being would use such an inefficient way of doing things, assuming that populating heaven with good souls, why not make just good souls that have freewill but won't choose evil, or why subject good souls to conditions that taints them? or why create a being to tempt them? entrapment is against the law.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:19 pm**

You know some Gnostics believe that it was Adam's first wife Lillith who tempted Eve, which kinda gives the book of Genesis a sort romantic lesbian quality.

And then of course there is the other Gnostic idea(l) where Jesus himself is purported to state he was the Serpent thus facilitating his coming to Earth...

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:37 pm**

At least Lilith got to live. Adam's second wife was erased from existence before she even had a name.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:09 pm**

Tammuz wrote:
HoosierDaddy wrote:
Tammuz wrote:but why would god make it more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven? you can't choose your pearants. this seems to be setting someone up to fail.

Like I said God doesn't make it harder for a rich man to enter Heaven. The Bible simply says a rich man is less likely to need god and thus never gain faith in him. Without that faith, entry into Heaven is impossible.

you said it was less likely, if god in his omnipotence creates a world in which he knows a man will never need him, why should he judge a that man not worthy? that's kinda like me saying to you, you're not going to heaven becuase you've never worn a sanitary towl...

but still why create them unequally? why not give everybody the same start? all it does is create contempt, sets them up to fail, and makes bad things happen to good people.

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and why make earth the devils playground? seems like a rather irresponsible thing to let happen.
Adam and Eve allowed Lucifer to tempt them and disobey God. That was the beginning of sin. Lucifer thought he could overthrow God and God sent Michael to defeat Lucifer and Michael easily defeated him. Then as punishment God force Lucifer and the angels that followed him to Earth. Where he and his minions would live and tempt man until judgement day. Basically, it is Gods way of saying Hey, you have free will. You can choose whatever life you want. You can choose good or evil. You'll know about the good and be tempted by the evil. If you are strong enough to overcome it you will be rewarded with life in heaven.

right, but through the actions of lucifer(the result of the actions of god), thousands of souls will not ascend to heaven, is that really fair on those souls who without the devil's influence probably might have had a shot, becuase of the devil's lack of forsight?

and do angels have freewill, cuase i'm fairly sure they didn't, so why did lucifer rebel? and why did god create lucifer knowing he'd rebel?

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and if heaven if so much greater than earth why even bother with it?
Because it's so much greater then earth.

i meant earth, why not just skip it and and ascend straight heaven...

HoosierDaddy wrote:
and why is your short life on earth so significant to god? why not make the significant bit long?

and why make people feel unequal, knowing that it breeds contempt amongst us mere humans.
Because your life on Earth is what determines whether you are strong enough to make it to Heaven. Your life on earth is significant because this is where you will make your decision on which path you'll follow. When this life is over, you'll be judged and that is it. There are no more chances after this. And people being unequal is just like I explained above. Free will. You can let the fact that your poor be an excuse to be a bad person, or you can use the fact that your poor as an excuse to need God and what he offers to get you through because after this life if you enter Heaven you will know no suffering. After that life on Earth is insignificant.

so we have to be unequal to have freewill? but surely god could have created free will without evil, or is evil necassary for free will, couldn't an omnipotent being make that other wise? like fat free icecream?

HoosierDaddy wrote:I have a serious question, have you ever read any of the Bible or had anybody tell you about it? The reason i ask is because the questions you are asking me are pretty common knowledge by people who've at least been introduced to Christian beliefs. Just curious.

i'm english, it's part of our school system, and i've been on this forum for 4 years; i just wanted to see if you could come up with some interesting answers rather than the same stuff that doesn't really answer anything.

i just can't get over that an omnipotent, omniscient, & omnibenevolent being would use such an inefficient way of doing things, assuming that populating heaven with good souls, why not make just good souls that have freewill but won't choose evil, or why subject good souls to conditions that taints them? or why create a being to tempt them? entrapment is against the law.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:11 pm**

^
You only quoted it, so you know.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:18 pm**

DesalationReborn wrote:^
You only quoted it, so you know.

I actually sat here and spent 10 minutes typing answers to each individual question then when I posted it, the board said invalid thread (something to that effect) and then what you see is what came up. I tried to hit my back button but i lost all that I posted. And there is no way I feel like typing it all again right now. Why on Earth would someone just quote without saying something?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:19 pm**

Primus C-00 wrote:You know some Gnostics believe that it was Adam's first wife Lillith who tempted Eve, which kinda gives the book of Genesis a sort romantic lesbian quality.

And then of course there is the other Gnostic idea(l) where Jesus himself is purported to state he was the Serpent thus facilitating his coming to Earth...

I've never heard of this before. What source do they use for their information? I am interested in finding out what this is all about. :-?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:24 pm**

Ya, not 80% of wars by far, though it dominated the Crusades and the age of Philip II, who actually did wage war on Protestants and Muslims for mainly religious reasons. The Pope Urban VII did initiate the Crusades for more power, specifically to gain power within the court of Constantinople, but it was religion that got him there and religion that sent people on their way (many of whom merely blessed "holy geese" and followed them hoping to either get to the holyland or die as a martyre on the way there).

Though not to say dogma in the religion hasn't caused a lot of violence. St. Augustine made an edict that carried on for better than a thousand years that went "better to torture a man until he excepts Christ in his last moments than have him burn forever in hell." I've read of some tortures used for such purposes-- flaying the bottoms of a person's feet and having them walk on course salt, making a slit in their abdomen and slowly pulling out their guts, etc. Not very nice.

And then you've got the whole 'jihad' thing... that's been used within the Religion of Peace like what, 1500 years?

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:32 pm**

The common people see religion as true, the wise see it as false, and the rulers of the world see it as useful.

The rulers of the world see a country or group of people they hate and they say to the common people "Hey, God spoke to me and told me to rob them of their resources, enslave their children, rape their women, force the men to fight for me or kill them, and annihilate their beliefs and culture."

Then the common people, who believe every world their ruler says because he's a man of God, march off to war to carry out his commands because it's what God wants.

This was not meant to offend. What I said is a fact and it has happened this way for thousands of years. I am an atheist, by the way. However, I do respect a person's right to believe in what they want as long as they don't preach it or force it onto others. That deserves a pimp slap.

Thank you.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:38 pm**

HoosierDaddy wrote:
DesalationReborn wrote:^
You only quoted it, so you know.
I actually sat here and spent 10 minutes typing answers to each individual question then when I posted it, the board said invalid thread (something to that effect) and then what you see is what came up. I tried to hit my back button but i lost all that I posted. And there is no way I feel like typing it all again right now. Why on Earth would someone just quote without saying something?

it does that to me too, usually after and AC style long post, i just press the back button and then pres submit again and it works.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:11 pm**

Tammuz wrote:
HoosierDaddy wrote:
DesalationReborn wrote:^
You only quoted it, so you know.
I actually sat here and spent 10 minutes typing answers to each individual question then when I posted it, the board said invalid thread (something to that effect) and then what you see is what came up. I tried to hit my back button but i lost all that I posted. And there is no way I feel like typing it all again right now. Why on Earth would someone just quote without saying something?

it does that to me too, usually after and AC style long post, i just press the back button and then pres submit again and it works.

LOL, yeah I pressed back and hit submit but then when it posted it just posted as if I never typed anything. :???:

But I'm getting too tired to retype it right now. Maybe tomorrow. Plus, I'm lazy. :grin:

The Energon Pub

It's all Gods fault!

It's all Gods fault!