The Energon Pub

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle, as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water. But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the face of the earth."

Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles, someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

Caelus wrote:I don't see this being something that will be installed in a vehicle as the journalists were suggesting - without knowing exactly how much electricity it uses, I can't say for sure, but it seems unlikely. It would certainly require a large battery - one that would probably have to be charged from an electrical grid powered by a coal plant. I mean, it has to maintain that Radio nonstop, as opposed to only firing sparkplugs every so often.

What this certainly is is a new approach to liberating Hydrogen from water.

Hydrogen is a great potential fuel source, and would hypothetically burn clean, so Hydrogen fueled cars sound like the ideal. Problem is, all that Hydrogen is in water, and it takes roughly more energy to get the Hydrogen out of the water than you get back when you recombine the two in combustion. So at the moment, Hydrogen powered cars are actually Coal powered cars - the Hydrogen is effectively just a medium for transmitting the energy in the coal to the car.

Hydrogen is such a juicy prospect though that many are trying to find ways to circumvent the problem or make it more efficient - one of my wife's grad professors is experimenting with focusing sunlight to break down water in non-photovoltaic solar-powered Hydrogen manufacture facilities.

So, the question is this - does his RF machine consume less electricity (burn less coal) than a traditional Hydrogen manufacturing system creating the same amount of Hydrogen? I think it should - there should be a lot less thermal waste involved, making it preferable to the current status quo.

Unless you can replace the Coal plant though, you still haven't achieved much environmentally speaking. I suppose strategically coal is preferable to Oil because there is more of it AFAIK, and environmentally it is easier to filter the exhaust from one Coal Plant than 6,000 cars...

Now what would be really nice, is if they could make that old tidal-power system work (a coastal hydroelectric plant). You'd have your power source and your saltwater in one spot. I would say you could build Oil-Derrick-like structures over submerged volcanic vents for geothermal power, but given the environmental consequences, that seems unlikely.

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:This sounds almost too good to be true. Hope when they put them into cars, tough, the engines don't rust out. BTW, what would happen to the salt in the salt water? would it just sit there & build up?

Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.

Matrix. wrote:

Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.

100% correct. Economy and profit are higher on the 'need' list than a healthy planet.

Nugget wrote:

Matrix. wrote:

Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.

100% correct. Economy and profit are higher on the 'need' list than a healthy planet.

Count me in with this chain of thought. My children's children will probably never see this technology so long as an ounce of oil exists on the planet.

Matrix. wrote:I'd actually try and take some kind of moral high ground, patent it and refuse to sell. I'd then try and get cars to run on it and such and begin a crusade from that.

You think there will still be an ounce of oil on the planet when you have grand kids?

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:Why cure cancer when you could be a plastic surgeon giving small doses of false happiness to clients with insecurities & too much money for a small town to spend in a lifetime?