The Energon Pub

(CNN) -- Military supporters descended on Berkeley early Tuesday, demanding the famously liberal California college town rescind its vote that says Marine recruiters are "not welcome in this city."

The pro-military demonstrators were met by anti-war protesters who had camped out overnight, setting the stage for a dramatic showdown late in the day when the City Council is to discuss whether to revoke its previous vote.

"Their treasonous action, especially at this time of war right now, is not acceptable," said Mary Pearson, a spokeswoman for the group Move America Forward.

"It's very, very important for everyone to stand united ... to give our Marines and all of our military the greatest respect and honor that they deserve."

Before the sun was even up, about 300 demonstrators -- both pro-military and anti-war -- were already standing toe-to-toe in downtown. Many traded jeers and sneers.

"Code Pink doesn't stand for us," one sign said, held by a man in military fatigues. Signs held by anti-war activists read, "End the War" and "Bring the troops home now."

The City Council is to meet at 7 p.m. PT on whether to take back its previous measure urging the Marine recruiters to leave town.

"If recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders," the measure says.

It went on to say the council applauds residents and organizations that "volunteer to impede, passively or actively, by nonviolent means, the work of any military recruiting office located in the City of Berkeley."

Ever since the council measure, protesters with the anti-war group Code Pink have camped outside the Marine recruiting office on Shattuck Avenue, singing peace songs and chanting slogans for an end to the Iraq war.

Republican lawmakers in Washington fired back last week, threatening to recall more than $2 million of federal funding to the city as well as money designated for the University of California-Berkeley, the campus that became a bastion of liberalism during the Vietnam War.

The Marine Corps has said it has no plans to move its office, which is located about a block from the college campus.

Whether the City Council reverses course remains to be seen.

Max Anderson, a Vietnam war veteran who serves on the council, said he fully supports the measure to get Marine recruiters out of town -- despite receiving more than 8,000 e-mails, most of them harsh in tone, on the matter.

"If the aim was to shut us down, get us to back up, get us to eat our words, get us to retreat from our position with the war, they can forget that," he told CNN Monday.

He said he was recruited by Marines after he graduated from high school in 1963 and was promised that he and his friends would serve together. But once they enlisted, he said, they were separated and shipped off to Vietnam.

"We're not against the Marines per se," he said. "We're against this war. We're against the mechanisms that support this war and send our young people over there."

Kriss Worthington, a progressive Berkeley activist and council member for 11 years, believes the council overreached.

"The inflammatory language in the City Council item is really outrageous -- not just to right-wing people, but to mainstream liberal people and even to some peace activists who have said they're insulted that the city would have such language," Worthington said.


He said Berkeley owes an apology to the military and to the peace movement "for having such embarrassing language allegedly trying to promote peace."

"When you make a colossal blunder, you can't just sort of ignore the mistake and go about your way. You have to do something to fix it," Worthington said.

First Gen wrote:They want the recruiters out so they can't recruit Berkley students right?

If Berkley students are so smart, how come they just can't say no?

Half them **** potheads wouldn't qualify to make it into the Marine Corps anyway.

Liberals, can't live with em;, can't kill em.

First Gen wrote:Liberals, can't live with em;, can't kill em.

Shadowman wrote:Definitely against the protesters here. It's the US Military, not the US-Except-For-Berkley Military.

I have problems with both extremist Liberals and extremist Conservatives. Extremist Liberals think we can just push a button and all the problems in Iraq go away.

First Gen wrote:Liberals, can't live with em;, can't kill em.

And that's my problem with Extremist Conservatives. Everything can be solved by violence.

Ah, crap. I sens ea disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt this, the Philosopher's Forum closed.

First Gen wrote:Pass judgment on me if you want, but if it weren't for those Marines and all service members, Berkely wouldn't have the right to protest our presence.

I am a US MARINE, and anytime you say F-you, we don't need you, I will bite back.

Call me an extremist if you want, but its those like me that make sure you can sleep at night without worrying if you'll live to see the morning.

Autobot032 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Ah, crap. I sens ea disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt this, the Philosopher's Forum closed.

Indeed. *ignites Lightsaber*

Shadowman wrote:

First Gen wrote:Pass judgment on me if you want, but if it weren't for those Marines and all service members, Berkely wouldn't have the right to protest our presence.

I am a US MARINE, and anytime you say F-you, we don't need you, I will bite back.

Call me an extremist if you want, but its those like me that make sure you can sleep at night without worrying if you'll live to see the morning.

Oh, nothing against you, of course. I've got nothing but respect for those people in fatigues who make sure other countries don't come along and shoot me in my sleep. As a matter of fact, my sister was in the US Army.

But honestly, saying **** like "Can't live with them, can't kill them" is only going to make life worse off for all of us.

Autobot032 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Ah, crap. I sens ea disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt this, the Philosopher's Forum closed.

Indeed. *ignites Lightsaber*

And
I roll a level 70 paladin, with a dual-class in mage. I have a +15 Blessed Sword of Justice, the full set of War God's Armor, boosting all my stats to maximum. My character is fluent in Elvish, Orc, and Troll, and dabbles in reading ancient scripts. Also, he has a perpetual itch on his right shoulder.

Autobot032 wrote:And I don't think Berkley's right or wrong. I'm willing to see how it plays out before I pass judgment. However, they are entitled to their opinions and you wanting them dead because of their opinion is trying to take away their freedom.

No one's entitled to agree with one another, but we're entitled to give them their right to feel and believe how they wish. No matter how badly we want them to see our side, another person will always see it how they wish.

Besides, if we start taking away their right to speak out and have an opinion...then how soon will it be before our opinions are taken away?

In the end, we'll see what happens. Until then, all we can do is watch and wait.

First Gen wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:And I don't think Berkley's right or wrong. I'm willing to see how it plays out before I pass judgment. However, they are entitled to their opinions and you wanting them dead because of their opinion is trying to take away their freedom.

No one's entitled to agree with one another, but we're entitled to give them their right to feel and believe how they wish. No matter how badly we want them to see our side, another person will always see it how they wish.

Besides, if we start taking away their right to speak out and have an opinion...then how soon will it be before our opinions are taken away?

In the end, we'll see what happens. Until then, all we can do is watch and wait.

It's like this. War is a fact of life. Has been since the dawn of man. Fiction, reality, it matters not. War is. You can't avoid it. You can protest it, you can lobby it, you can do whatever you want, but WAR will never go away.

Everyone is entitled to there opinion. Just like US Marines are entitled to recruit. Evolution said it, they are infringing on our rights as servicemembers by asking them to leave.

What did the Marines do to them? Are the Marines a threat? Do they fear that the Marines will dupe their kids into joining? C'mon, if your kids gonna join you can't stop them.

When someone is against the Marine Corps they are my enemy. Thats not American, thats not "supporting the troops", that's hippie peace and love bull that is so far off the reality scale it makes alien robots from the planet Cybertron coming to Earth extremely possible. It is something that cannot be tolerated, less we have anarchy.

First Gen wrote:It's like this. War is a fact of life. Has been since the dawn of man. Fiction, reality, it matters not. War is. You can't avoid it. You can protest it, you can lobby it, you can do whatever you want, but WAR will never go away.

First Gen wrote:Everyone is entitled to there opinion. Just like US Marines are entitled to recruit. Evolution said it, they are infringing on our rights as servicemembers by asking them to leave.

First Gen wrote:What did the Marines do to them? Are the Marines a threat? Do they fear that the Marines will dupe their kids into joining? C'mon, if your kids gonna join you can't stop them.

First Gen wrote:When someone is against the Marine Corps they are my enemy. Thats not American, thats not "supporting the troops", that's hippie peace and love bull that is so far off the reality scale it makes alien robots from the planet Cybertron coming to Earth extremely possible. It is something that cannot be tolerated, less we have anarchy.

Shadowman wrote:Also, being in the Marine Corps you're basically the Army with boats...boats on loan from the Navy, but boats nonetheless.

Shadowman wrote:Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying "War or Anarchy."

War isn't the only option, you must realize that. War is the Last Resort. We don't just say "okay...how about we take out ______ today?" We see someone who is doing something bad, then we try to convince them to stop it, make deals, treaties. If it's two countries going at it, and it looks like a threat to us, we'll probably step in and help them resolve it.

AFTER that fails, we fight.

Also, being in the Marine Corps you're basically the Army with boats...boats on loan from the Navy, but boats nonetheless.

Autobot032 wrote:

First Gen wrote:When someone is against the Marine Corps they are my enemy. Thats not American, thats not "supporting the troops", that's hippie peace and love bull that is so far off the reality scale it makes alien robots from the planet Cybertron coming to Earth extremely possible. It is something that cannot be tolerated, less we have anarchy.

See, there's one of the reasons people protest the war and the war-mongerers behind it.

"You're with me or against me" is a TERRIBLE way to see your fellow countrymen.

It's considered Un-American to strive for peace and oppose the war? It's mentalities like that that that take away our rights.

Look, I'm grateful that you and your fellow servicemen put yourselves on the front line to save us, each and everyday. I truly thank you. I think that Berkley is run by idiots and that idiocy reigns supreme on *both* sides.

You must remember though, you're protecting all freedoms, and opinions are a part of freedom. And I know what you're going to say next "Well then maybe that's one freedom we shouldn't protect." (or something equally frightening.)

You know what? I'm out of this conversation. It's becoming quite uncomfortable and it's heartbreaking.

Evolution Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Also, being in the Marine Corps you're basically the Army with boats...boats on loan from the Navy, but boats nonetheless.

Shhh.... Don't tell this to the Marines, but they are apart of the Department of the Navy, hence they really actually in the Navy.

First Gen wrote:Yeah, we're a Department of the Navy.


The MEN'S Department. lol

I know Prime, thats horribly old. God bless the Navy, I love them damm swashbuckling squids.

jazzrules wrote:As a foreigner who doesn't know anything about the American military recruitment process, and the freedoms that you're constitution gives you, I probably shouldn't comment on this topic. BUT:

It doesn't seem to me as though this place is saying "we don't respect members of our armed forces", rather they are trying to protect their citizens in the only way they can see.

It doesn't seem like if you're a member of the Army/Navy/Air Force you'll be hounded out of town with burning torches and pitchforks - unless you try to convince people to sign up.

The argument about it being un-American to not support the war, I feel is a particularly pointless one. Just because you don't support some things your country does, doesn't mean you don't love your country. For example, there are plenty of people here in the UK who think that the Royal Family should be abolished (in fact I often wonder why we need them), but that doesn't mean we don't love our country.

In closing, please don't shoot me if you don't agree with what I'm saying, but sometimes things like this are easier to understand if you are an impartial observer.

First Gen wrote:

Evolution Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Also, being in the Marine Corps you're basically the Army with boats...boats on loan from the Navy, but boats nonetheless.

Shhh.... Don't tell this to the Marines, but they are apart of the Department of the Navy, hence they really actually in the Navy.

Yeah, we're a Department of the Navy.


The MEN'S Department. lol

I know Prime, thats horribly old. God bless the Navy, I love them damm swashbuckling squids.

First Gen wrote:So why fight those who defend the country instead of lobbying Congress? We, the Marines and servicemembers, don't make the decisions to go to battle, we do as we are ordered.

First Gen wrote:

jazzrules wrote:As a foreigner who doesn't know anything about the American military recruitment process, and the freedoms that you're constitution gives you, I probably shouldn't comment on this topic. BUT:

It doesn't seem to me as though this place is saying "we don't respect members of our armed forces", rather they are trying to protect their citizens in the only way they can see.

It doesn't seem like if you're a member of the Army/Navy/Air Force you'll be hounded out of town with burning torches and pitchforks - unless you try to convince people to sign up.

The argument about it being un-American to not support the war, I feel is a particularly pointless one. Just because you don't support some things your country does, doesn't mean you don't love your country. For example, there are plenty of people here in the UK who think that the Royal Family should be abolished (in fact I often wonder why we need them), but that doesn't mean we don't love our country.

In closing, please don't shoot me if you don't agree with what I'm saying, but sometimes things like this are easier to understand if you are an impartial observer.

I can totally understand you on the Royal family. Your tariff's are like 50% because of them right? Thats insane.

Shadowman wrote:My Dad was in the Navy! I probably have a brother somewhere in the Philippines! As do many children of Navy servicemen!