The Energon Pub

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/us_ ... ns_wind_dc


What do you think? Is this guy nuts, or is he actually on to something?


I personally would bet on him. I like how he's doing it for profit, because it's a language everybody understands, not just the tree-hugging wackos. (sarcasm on wackos)

I think if this works out, it'll lead to something. If people see how much money can come out of it, maybe more will try, and slowly advances will be made.
Thats on a chance though.

Well, I don't believe in global warming, but I do believe in alternative energy. After all, How much oil is left. Kudos for this guy for working to make my life cheaper.

I read about this last year when I was writing a speech about oil for class. It's a good change, like getting out of whale oil for lamps a century ago was a good change.

Although, for some reason, I can't help thinking of Sim City 2000.

JaAm wrote:Well, I don't believe in global warming, but I do believe in alternative energy. After all, How much oil is left. Kudos for this guy for working to make my life cheaper.

My thoughts exactly! I am totally for alternative energy forms, since oil is not really a renewable resource and we use BOATLOADS of it....But the whole "global warming" hype....*raises eyebrows* Mostly hooey.

I'm all for alternatives for change to better the environment but every time one of these projects comes up someone tries to block it or stop it because "it blocks their view" or "it will lower my property value" etc etc...there was a similar project proposed to be built off the eastern seaboard and what happened ? the project was crushed because it blocked some rich a**holes views of the ocean a little.

They are building a "light rail" system in Seattle as we speak and as usual it does not or will not run through the rich areas but the cluttered "seedy" areas immediately off the major roads and so on so whomever gets displaced/moved/forced out of their homes will they get a fair price for them in return ? I know of thousands in my state alone ( Washington state ) that were never fairly compensated and the term "Imminent domain" was used to force them out.

What bothers me about imminent domain is that many of these super projects to improve the traffic and commuting problems that have plagued the greater Seattle area for over twenty years now have gone no place at all after millions of taxpayer dollars have been waisted on them and people lose their homes and property for nothing at all.

When they decide to start carving up thousands of miles of the entire USA I wonder how many will get displaced ?

Pyrostrata wrote:But the whole "global warming" hype....*raises eyebrows* Mostly hooey.

How so?


Global warming (specifically, humans adding a lot to a gradual but normal climate shift) is real.

It's simple science. As the polar ice caps melt, made of fresh water, they add to the ocean and change the salt balance of the ocean water, which influences the temperature, which influences the way temperature and storms affect humans.

Carbon Dioxide and water vapor really do trap heat.


Now, I'll concede. Maybe the term "Global Warming" is extreme. It's step one of ten or so. But something, set in motion by us with the Industrial Revolution, really is happening. Maybe "Climate Shift" is a better term, but we are adding to it.

Climate change is what is happening. While snowstorms in April in Iowa and drought in normally drought-free areas may be dismissed as "seasonal variations," there is evidence that hurricanes (for example) are getting stronger, although not more frequent. Of course, even if we f••* the planet, the reversal of the magnetic poles may kill most of whatever life is left, rendering our effect on the world largely moot.

I read about this in Science News months ago. In that magazine, it stated that the magnetic pole would shift sometime in the next thousand years, and that the lack of protection from cosmic rays could devastate life on Earth. So, "climate change" might not matter much in the long run, but it's still going to be Hell.
http://pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/ ... ole_Shift/

More plastic for transformers then!

Dragonoth wrote:Climate change is what is happening. While snowstorms in April in Iowa and drought in normally drought-free areas may be dismissed as "seasonal variations," there is evidence that hurricanes (for example) are getting stronger, although not more frequent. Of course, even if we f••* the planet, the reversal of the magnetic poles may kill most of whatever life is left, rendering our effect on the world largely moot.

I read about this in Science News months ago. In that magazine, it stated that the magnetic pole would shift sometime in the next thousand years, and that the lack of protection from cosmic rays could devastate life on Earth. So, "climate change" might not matter much in the long run, but it's still going to be Hell.
http://pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/ ... ole_Shift/

I'd have to do more research but from what I understand the magnetic pole change is not going to happen overnight or be like flipping a light switch on or off but a gradual change like most everything else.

It's happened many times before in earths history and there is scientific proof to back it up in the form of patterns in lava rocks from around the world.

Its what pisses me off about some NZLers. They're planning to build a huge arse windfarm in the region I live in (personally, i think they're so awesome, the windmills that is). Anyway, there's a group of people bitching and moaning about NIMBYs and the such.

WTF do people want? The Maoris don't like us using hydro power because it offends their mythical Taniwhas (like a giant sea snake), we can't have solar power because it's apparently too expensive and heaven forbid we use the natural gas reserves. If these people don't deal with the giant windmills 20kms away, then the govt. is just going to have to slap a huge nuclear power station somewhere to meet our needs.

And 87% of NZLers are anti-nuclear.

Its hard to beleive people are serious about climate change in this country when you go to the tip and look over the edge to see mountains of glass and paper and stuff that should be bloody recyled!!!

I'm Greener than most of the people wearing those damn climate change stickers and harping on about Al Gore - and I'm right wing!!!!!

Dark Zarak wrote:

Pyrostrata wrote:But the whole "global warming" hype....*raises eyebrows* Mostly hooey.

How so?


Global warming (specifically, humans adding a lot to a gradual but normal climate shift) is real.

It's simple science. As the polar ice caps melt, made of fresh water, they add to the ocean and change the salt balance of the ocean water, which influences the temperature, which influences the way temperature and storms affect humans.

Carbon Dioxide and water vapor really do trap heat.


Now, I'll concede. Maybe the term "Global Warming" is extreme. It's step one of ten or so. But something, set in motion by us with the Industrial Revolution, really is happening. Maybe "Climate Shift" is a better term, but we are adding to it.

Nothing about the global warming hype is "simple science", it sloppy science at best. Somehow these people have got the whole world believing that world is going to burn up in the next ten years based on absolutely NO evidence whatsoever. No self-respecting science uses observational evidence within such a restricted timespace to come to so drastic conclusions. I also find it highly amusing that they go against the hard evidence that within the last 100 years, the global temperature has maybe gone up half a degree. Also, the United States is one of the cleanest industrial nations in the world, yet we're the ones who are responsible for it all. I also find it funny that when anything unusual happens with the weather, it's all blamed on global warming no matter what it is. Drought? Global warming. Snow? Global warming. Well which is it? Is the world burning up or is it freezing? Even they can't decide. You can't have it both ways. (Oh, I also know all about the all encompassing - it's the temperature that causing eveything to happen...somehow) A couple of years back, everyone made a hype about how global warming was causing all the hurricanes (it was one of the more busiest seasons for hurricanes and tropical storms, but not the worst), and it was all doom and gloom, it was all going to get worse. And then the next year, there wasn't nearly as many, and there hasn't been a repeat since. That seems to have gone to the wayside, mainly because it no longer served the global-warming extremists interests to hear real fact.

I'm sorry to go off on such a long rant. I'm not trying to open up a new debate, but this crap just gets me worked up. And what's worse, everyone is willing to swallow it hook line and sinker, without looking up the facts for themselves.

Loki120 wrote:Somehow these people have got the whole world believing that world is going to burn up in the next ten years based on absolutely NO evidence whatsoever.

Straw man. Nobody says that.


And there is evidence. Venus is evidence. Carbon Dioxide and water vapor trap heat. That is evidence. It isn't proof, but it is evidence.

You're being way too exaggerated with your side. It makes everyone else look like wackos when, in fact, the situation isn't as extreme as you're making it out to be.

Loki120 wrote:No self-respecting science uses observational evidence within such a restricted timespace to come to so drastic conclusions.

You're right. It doesn't.

And it isn't. A theory is being posited, that's all. Actual science reporting on global warming does not say "know", it's say "predict". Only hippies on the street says they "know" anything about it.

Loki120 wrote:Also, the United States is one of the cleanest industrial nations in the world, yet we're the ones who are responsible for it all.

No, the current fad to blame is China. And Brazil.

And I'm sorry, but even if we are one of the cleanest, we are not clean enough. Have you been to LA?

Loki120 wrote:Well which is it? Is the world burning up or is it freezing? Even they can't decide. You can't have it both ways. (Oh, I also know all about the all encompassing - it's the temperature that causing eveything to happen...somehow)

Okay, this is what really gets me.

We must all be wackos because we're blaming something called "Global Warming" on lower temperatures. How stupid can we get right?

Well, I just said how the theory works in my other post, which you quoted.

Dark Zarak wrote:As the polar ice caps melt, made of fresh water, they add to the ocean and change the salt balance of the ocean water, which influences the temperature, which influences the way temperature and storms affect humans.

Carbon Dioxide and water vapor really do trap heat.

Loki120 wrote:I'm sorry to go off on such a long rant. I'm not trying to open up a new debate, but this crap just gets me worked up. And what's worse, everyone is willing to swallow it hook line and sinker, without looking up the facts for themselves.

It's not that simple. You realize you're saying that University professors, people with PhD's in oceanography and meteorology, and other such climate related fields, are "swallowing it hook line and sinker"?

As I said, no respectable science is saying "It will". Only people on the street are saying that.

I don't know what you're calling "looking up the real facts" because every time I look up anything it's all saying "yes, it can happen."

And that brings up another thing:

If all of our science is flawed, how do you know the stuff you're reading isn't?

Dark Zarak wrote:

Loki120 wrote:Somehow these people have got the whole world believing that world is going to burn up in the next ten years based on absolutely NO evidence whatsoever.

Straw man. Nobody says that.

I love the "straw man" come back. It's a great way to back up an arguement without actually having to back up an arguement.
EVERYBODY says that! I do believe Al Gore just made a movie based on it.

And there is evidence. Venus is evidence. Carbon Dioxide and water vapor trap heat. That is evidence. It isn't proof, but it is evidence.

You're being way too exaggerated with your side. It makes everyone else look like wackos when, in fact, the situation isn't as extreme as you're making it out to be.

Unless you're suggesting that the Venusians jumped into their SUVs and caused their climate to change, it's not at all the same thing. Venus is smaller, closer to the sun, possesses a much thicker atmosphere, and possesses no intelligent life in which to cause atmospheric change willingly or not. There are too many variables to consider this as any sort of evidence other than circumstantial at best.
The only evidence that this should support is that the climate change is being caused by the planet and/or the sun itself.

It seems to me that only the pro-global warming supporters are exaggerating any facts.

It's not that simple. You realize you're saying that University professors, people with PhD's in oceanography and meteorology, and other such climate related fields, are "swallowing it hook line and sinker"?

As I said, no respectable science is saying "It will". Only people on the street are saying that.

And that's exactly the problem. Global warming has reached such hype that it virtually accepted as fact with no real evidence to prove it exists. Those scientists or other people who deny it are ostrasized or called worse.

I don't know what you're calling "looking up the real facts" because every time I look up anything it's all saying "yes, it can happen."

And that brings up another thing:

If all of our science is flawed, how do you know the stuff you're reading isn't?

Yeah, it's real convenient that certain hard evidence and facts are forgotten because it doesn't fall in line. The 100 year = 1 degree temp fact is never mentioned, nor is the fact that while some parts of the arctic shelf are thinning, other parts are getting thicker.
Simple fact is that all evidence to support Global Warming is based on sloppy or flawed science. If this were anything else, it would have been all but forgotten by now.

Loki120 wrote:I love the "straw man" come back. It's a great way to back up an arguement without actually having to back up an arguement.
EVERYBODY says that! I do believe Al Gore just made a movie based on it.

But you did commit a straw man. "Burn up in the next ten years" "NO evidence" That's exaggerated speech.

If lots of people say "straw man", it's because so many people are exaggerating.

Loki120 wrote:Unless you're suggesting that the Venusians jumped into their SUVs and caused their climate to change, it's not at all the same thing. Venus is smaller, closer to the sun, possesses a much thicker atmosphere, and possesses no intelligent life in which to cause atmospheric change willingly or not. There are too many variables to consider this as any sort of evidence other than circumstantial at best.
The only evidence that this should support is that the climate change is being caused by the planet and/or the sun itself.

I'm suggesting that Venus' atmosphere traps heat, and much of the same components are being put into ours by us. How does that not suggest a rising of temperatures caused by man?

I never said we would make our planet hot enough to melt lead with 90x the atmospheric pressure.

I said it has the gases that trap heat, and we are putting those gases into ours, so therefore, we are trapping heat, smaller than Venus yes, but still a rise.

Loki120 wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:It's not that simple. You realize you're saying that University professors, people with PhD's in oceanography and meteorology, and other such climate related fields, are "swallowing it hook line and sinker"?

As I said, no respectable science is saying "It will". Only people on the street are saying that.

And that's exactly the problem. Global warming has reached such hype that it virtually accepted as fact with no real evidence to prove it exists. Those scientists or other people who deny it are ostrasized or called worse.

What scientists deny it?

What about the doctors and professors that support it? Are you saying they are "Swallowing it hook line and sinker"? They can't be right in the slightest?

Global warming is a pretty dumb name for it when it's actually climate change - which there is a lot of evidence for (whether it's caused mainly by humans or something else I don't know)

Besides - if you don't think climate change is a threat there's always the aproaching ice age and the overdue explosion of the Yellowstone supervolcano to worry about.


- personally I blame cows farting!

Dark Zarak wrote:

Loki120 wrote:Unless you're suggesting that the Venusians jumped into their SUVs and caused their climate to change, it's not at all the same thing. Venus is smaller, closer to the sun, possesses a much thicker atmosphere, and possesses no intelligent life in which to cause atmospheric change willingly or not. There are too many variables to consider this as any sort of evidence other than circumstantial at best.
The only evidence that this should support is that the climate change is being caused by the planet and/or the sun itself.

I'm suggesting that Venus' atmosphere traps heat, and much of the same components are being put into ours by us. How does that not suggest a rising of temperatures caused by man?

I never said we would make our planet hot enough to melt lead with 90x the atmospheric pressure.

I said it has the gases that trap heat, and we are putting those gases into ours, so therefore, we are trapping heat, smaller than Venus yes, but still a rise.

Now, normally I wouldn't comment on something like this because I do enough of it at uni.

However:

In the above quoted section, you seem to be forgetting, like most people, that these gases are in the atmosphere naturally and would still be there even if we didn't drive massive cars/have massive coal/gas-fired power stations. While I know you probably already know this, I feel it still needs pointing out.

Finally, the thing I feel is not made a big enough point of is that water vapour is the biggest and most effective greenhouse gas, so the more water vapour we put into the atmosphere the more we potentially ruin the planet

Look, Global warming is still just a theory. The problem is there's such a media storm and an arse-load of hype, so it's virtually impossible for you to find the truth. Sure, something may be happening, but you can't be sure yet that it's all our fault.

JaAm wrote:Look, Global warming is still just a theory. The problem is there's such a media storm and an arse-load of hype, so it's virtually impossible for you to find the truth. Sure, something may be happening, but you can't be sure yet that it's all our fault.

I suggest you check the scientific definition of theory-- knowing how many people that don't understand such a crucial term annoys me to no end.

As it appears, the climate change and temperature increase is a reality, but of what we aren't sure of are the factors causing such-- the earth has done this for all of its history. It's now simply a matter of "Can mankind create a noticeable impact on the world climate?", "To what extent?", and "Is it something that needed to be monitored?" As it seems, every answer is yes-- nothing that will annihilate mankind or the earth as we know it, and indeed, the earth is bound to change by itself besides, as it may be doing now, but such does not take away from the notion that we should be careful when playing with what is currently mankind's only inhabitable sphere and note what offshoots our actions here may have.

JaAm wrote:Look, Global warming is still just a theory. The problem is there's such a media storm and an arse-load of hype, so it's virtually impossible for you to find the truth. Sure, something may be happening, but you can't be sure yet that it's all our fault.

And that's all I'm saying. People have turned this issue into a political/media buzzword, when in truth there is no concrete evidence that suggests it's even happening. Keep in mind, these same scientists were saying not more than 30 years or so ago that the world was cooling. 30 years from now, what are those same scientists going to say about then?

I'm all for cleaning up the environment, I would never suggest otherwise. It's good to have clean water, and green trees and all of that. We can be cautious, but we are getting a lot of knee jerk reactions to a seemingly imagined threat.

Case in point. CFCs have been banned due to their effect on the ozone layer. I can see no longer using these things in spray cans such as hair spray and paint, but sometimes they're needed for much smaller things. My normal albuteral inhaler, which does use a small amount of CFCs, allows manufacturs to produce a cheap generic inhaler which would cost me no more than $15 to $20 without the need for insurance. Because of this all encompassing ban, I can no longer buy the very thing I need to keep breathing. Instead I now have to buy a much more expensive $100 dollar inhaler which doesn't use CFCs as an alternative (and this is the generic), monthly - and I may add not nearly as effective for some reason, I usually take this thing twice as much as my old inhaler. My only alternative is to not buy the more expensive inhaler, which I can carry with me wherever I go, or stuck taking breathing treatments at home with my nebulizer machine.

Tell me that isn't asinine.

DesalationReborn wrote:

JaAm wrote:Look, Global warming is still just a theory. The problem is there's such a media storm and an arse-load of hype, so it's virtually impossible for you to find the truth. Sure, something may be happening, but you can't be sure yet that it's all our fault.

As it appears, the climate change and temperature increase is a reality, but of what we aren't sure of are the factors causing such-- the earth has done this for all of its history. It's now simply a matter of "Can mankind create a noticeable impact on the world climate?", "To what extent?", and "Is it something that needed to be monitored?" As it seems, every answer is yes-- nothing that will annihilate mankind or the earth as we know it, and indeed, the earth is bound to change by itself besides, as it may be doing now, but such does not take away from the notion that we should be careful when playing with what is currently mankind's only inhabitable sphere and note what offshoots our actions here may have.

I'm not even trying to suggest that any of the global warming concern is propaganda or anything, but the above line alone speaks a good deal about the situation. When you see on the news that today is the hottest day in X number of years or this is the worst hurricane in X number of years, doesn't that suggest that a pattern exists within the natural order of things, like how ice ages come generally in cycles and all? Granted, in no way can I honestly say that humanity has nothing to do with climate change or any negative effects, but if the hottest day in Chicago history was in 1908 on this very day, and today, 100 years later, is now either close to or over that record setting temperature, may it not stand to reason that in 1808 Chicago had a similarly hot day? Or within the same week or month or whatever.
these threads always end up like shouting matches, and I'm just tossing in my two cents. We know that by and large things natural move in cyclical patterns, and we know that through our influence we are damaging at worst or exaserbating and best existent problems and conditions, but maybe that Aquanet we all used in the 80s and the cars we drive now are only affecting conditions so much because we are in that part of the climate cycle? Not at all am I calling global warming a myth or whatever, but I too think it is being overblown to some extent.

Loki120 wrote:
Keep in mind, these same scientists were saying not more than 30 years or so ago that the world was cooling. 30 years from now, what are those same scientists going to say about then?

I believe that - long term - the world is cooling ie we are coming towards the end of the warm period between two ice ages, it's the shorter term warming that the enviromentalists are worrying about (whether it's a natural 'blip' or induced by us, who knows)

I'm of the opinion that - we know we can't keep using fossil fuels and polluting forever, we know there are alternatives, so why not start properly investing in them now rather than wait until we're forced to change our behaviour.

Also : I guess that overhyping of dangers happens to counteract the 'spin' of information from big industries - they aren't going to stop profitable,damaging practices unless they're forced to.

JaAm wrote:Look, Global warming is still just a theory. The problem is there's such a media storm and an arse-load of hype, so it's virtually impossible for you to find the truth. Sure, something may be happening, but you can't be sure yet that it's all our fault.

That's the problem with everything.

scientific journals are your freinds. keep up to date with the papers on a subject.

of the major scientific associations only 2(of about 30) have dissented on climate change, the American Association of State Climatologists disagree that we can predict outcomes from effects of human activity on the enviroment, but not that we are having an effect, and the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, which accepts that human activity is a cause of climate change, but has not drawn a conclusion on man-made C02

so, internationally, the consensus amongst the vast majority of scientists is that we are driving climate change, once again it's the US that's ignoring scientists, just like it does with evolution, or the harm of smoking, or lead additives in petroleum.

so yeah stop reading/listening/watching media hype and coporate statments, and start comprehensively reading scientific papers on the subject, yes you'll get the odd one funded by exxon or a some fanatic eco warrior, but at least by reading as many as you can you'll be able to form an educated opinion, rather than just spouting off second hand opinions that fits with you're own personal preferences.

Glad to see someone is trying to do something about the energy crisis. God knows the US government isn't doing much about it. If they are doing anything, they are making it worse. The need to get off their butts and get some nuclear power plant built. Its one of the cheapest and saftest forms of energy.