Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

As promised in the Donations thread I'm going to be posting the results of our ongoing experiments here.
I will occasionally update this first post as more information becomes available.

I will also do my best to answer any questions on the data or our methods. As always, if what you see here doesn't ring true to you please double-check it. I'd much rather things be questioned and proven wrong than to just blindly cling to false information.

First a few reference links:
For Cons:
Tammuz' Mechanics thread (May His Maths be upon us)
Bun-Bun's Laboratory (not all info there will necessarily be transferred here especially if it was collected by Cons only, plus I'm known to make pretty charts there)

For Bots:
Iacon Index - Link to Maths provided by AZ
(Obviously I can't link to any kind of mechanics or tactical threads you have in Iacon but maybe Wingz &/or Burn can add some links in this space...)
(Or people can suggests them like AZ did)


Brawling
The TAG crew has determined that the formula put forth by Tammuz many years ago is still basically sound but some of the variables have been tweaked.

For those not in the know on the old formula:

Tammuz wrote:% Damage = [(RANDOM[minD~maxD)+(Str*1.3)] x [1+(Str x 0.1)] x [1.5-(End x 0.1)] x [1 - ((Tonnes * AC)/100)]
For those REALLY not in the know: "Str" refers to the Attackers Strength, "End" is the Defenders Endurance, "AC" is the Armor Coefficient that each armor is assigned (We are currently working on those numbers)

Brawling's minD is 1, It's maxD is 7. for all intended purposes use a constant of 3.5

What has changed:

[TAG] Team wrote:% Damage = [(RANDOM[minD~maxD)+(STR*1.35)] x [1+(STR/10)] x [1.5-(END/10)] x [1 - ((Tons * AC)/100)]*
*see note in ARMOR section

Brawling's minD is 0, It's maxD is 5.1.
Because of the way the game generates random numbers and then rounds them your raw, pre-modified damage is likely to be a non-integer but you will never actually do 0 damage.

Armor
*Due to the nature of how damage is calculated these values may not be 100% correct but they are close enough as to not really matter)*
Solving for the Armors ACs is still an ongoing process but as we become confident in our results I will update this list:

Alunimum - 1.2[ongoing]
Iron - 1.4
Steel - 2
Ceramic - [ongoing]
Carbon Fiber -
Duranium -
U238 -
Vanadium-Steel -
Crystalline -
Vacuum-Metalized -
Nucleon Tempered Steel -
Trithilium Steel -
Neutronium -
Nucleon Tempered Titanium -
Magnetic -
Cybertronic Alloy -
Dutronium - [ongoing]
Electrum -
Cybertronian Composite - [ongoing]
Hardend Energon - 8.6
Cybertitanium - 8.6
Nano-Regenerative - 8.9

3/27/20 - Last round of testing did not go as hoped & shut down prematurely as detailed here.

As I said before in the donations thread: Armor is expensive especially when multiple resets are sometimes required. Please consider following the link at the beginning of this post to find out how you can help.

Weapons

Ever wonder what those terms like "Light" or "Devastating" really means?
For many years we've known the ranges associated with those words but we didn't know the exact values in those ranges for each weapon.

Now we're working to get that information.

Hopefully before the next event we will have all the Basic (0/0) Weapons solved.

This will be updated as information is verified:
(these values fit into Tammuz' existing Weapon Damage formula which is different than the Brawling formula)

Basic
Fireworks Launcher - 13-17
Gun - 5-13, 0 Sec recharge
Hand-Mounted Laser - 3-15, 0 Sec recharge
Metallikato Strike - 1-17, 0 Sec recharge
Null-Ray Rifle - 7-11, 0 Sec recharge
Rifle - 8-10, 6 Sec recharge
Slingshot - 1-17, 0 Sec recharge
Sword - 3-15, 0 Sec recharge
X-Ray Laser - 9 (yes, just 9.... always 9), 0 Sec recharge
X-Ray Laser Cannon - 1-10, 0 Sec recharge
X-Ray Laser Pistol - 5 (just 5...yeah), 0 Sec recharge

Firepower Only
1 Firepower
Acid Rays - 7-13, 12 Sec recharge
Crossbow - 4-16, 0 Sec recharge
Cyclone Gun - 4-9 (ugh), 60 Sec recharge (double-ugh)
Disrupter - 9-11, 6 Sec recharge
Dual-Sonic Disrupter Gun - 6-14, 0 Sec recharge
Heat-Seeking Laser Blaster - 8-12, 12 Sec recharge
Laser Cannon - 1-19, 0 Sec recharge
Laser Pistol - 4-16, 0 Sec recharge

2 Firepower
Automatic Machine Gun - 8-14, 0 Sec recharge
Dol-Laser Rifle - 10-12, 0 Sec recharge
Double-Barreled Plasma Shell Shotgun - 5-17, 0 Sec recharge
Semi-Automatic Rifle - 10-12, 0 Sec recharge
Turret-Mounted Gun - 4-18, 12 Sec recharge
XS2 Ionised Null-Ray - 17-22, 0 Sec recharge

3 Firepower
Adhesion Rifle - 11-13, 0 Sec recharge
Brawn Blaster - 8-16, 0 Sec recharge
Dirge Gun - 7-17, 0 Sec recharge
Electric Cannon - 2-22, 0 Sec recharge

4 Firepower
High-Impact Laser Blaster - 7-19, 0 Sec recharge
Photon Pistol - 10-16, 0 Sec recharge
Razor-Tipped Wing Sword - 11-15, 6 Sec recharge
Rocket Launcher - 1-25, 24 Sec recharge

5 Firepower
20 Megavolt Stun Rifle - 13-15, 0 Sec recharge
Electron Blaster - 5-23, ? Sec recharge
Electron Gun - 11-17, 0 Sec recharge
Electron-Pulse Gun -8-20 , 0 Sec recharge
Photon-Displacer Gun - 12-16, 12 Sec recharge

6 Firepower
Concussion Blaster Gun - 12-18, 0 Sec recharge
Ionic Displacer Rifle - 14-16, 0 Sec recharge

7 Firepower
Maceration Laser - 8-24, 0 Sec recharge
Plasma Sphere Shooter - 8-24 , 6 Sec recharge

8 Firepower
Hellfire SHotgun - 12-40, 12 Sec recharge
Megaton Battle Sword - 8-26, 0 Sec recharge

9 Firepower
Molecular Canceller Nega-Gun - 12-24, 6 Sec recharge
Sonic Rifle - 17-19, 0 Sec recharge

Skill Only
1 Skill
Astro Blaster - 1-5 (just.... awful), 24 Sec recharge
Centigrade Flame-Thrower - 2-18
Fire Stone Sling - 5-15, 0 Sec recharge
Mace - 4-16, 0 Sec recharge

2 Skill
Armor Axe - 7-15, 6 Sec recharge
Lightsaber - 9-25, 0 Sec recharge
Sonic Sword - 6-16, 0 Sec recharge
Vibro Axe - 7-15, 0 Sec recharge

3 Skill
Diffraction Sword - 6-18, 0 Sec recharge
Metal-Slashing Claw - 10-14, 0 Sec recharge

4 Skill
Retractable Mecha-Fangs - 10-16, 0 Sec recharge
Thermal Sword - 11-15, 0 Sec recharge

5 Skill
Electron Scimitar Sword - 12-16, 0 Sec recharge

8 Skill
Dual-Bladed Lightsaber - 14-48, 0 Sec recharge

Firepower/Skill
1/1
Lightning Rifle - 10-12, 12 Sec recharge
Plasma Blaster - 6-16, 6 Sec recharge
Poisonous Paralyzer Fluid - 2-20, 0 Sec recharge
Shatterblasters - 15-20, 0 Sec recharge
Sawed-Off CO2 Shotgun - 7-15, 6 Sec recharge

1/2
Underwater And Surface-To-Air Cannon - 1-23, 12 Sec recharge

1/3
Shotgun Taser - 7-19, 6 Sec recharge

2/1
Dual Air-To-Air Missile Launcher - 9-15, 24 Sec recharge
Electronic Pulse Stinger - 3-21, 0 Sec recharge
Elemental Powers – 9-15, 6 Sec recharge
Infrared Cannon – 1-23, 18 Sec recharge
Sniper Rifle – 12 (just 12), 0 Sec recharge

2/6
Twin Swords - 15-19, 0 Sec recharge

3/1
Energon Crossbow – 10-16, 6 Sec recharge
Glass Gas Gun – 9-17, 6 Sec recharge
High-Energy Laser Rifle - 12-14, 18 Sec recharge

3/2
Battle Blade – 1-27, 0 Sec recharge
Blue Bolt – 8-20, 18 Sec recharge
Direct-Current Electrical Laser - 2-26, 12 Sec recharge

4/1
Twin Mortar Cannons - 3-25, 0 Sec recharge

4/2
Concealed Liquid Hydrogen Incendiary Emitters – 10-30 , 0 Sec recharge
Fusion-Powered Photon Rifle - 14-16, 18 Sec recharge

5/1
Double Venom Laser - 10-20, 0 Sec recharge
Gatling Cannon – 1-29, 0 Sec recharge
Laser Rifle – 14-16, 6 Sec recharge
Sub-Machine Gun – 11-19, 0 Sec recharge

6/2
Black Magic – 16-18, 6 Sec recharge
Concussion Blaster-Gun – 10-40, 0 Sec recharge
Concussion Cannon - 1-33, 12 Sec recharge

7/1
Atomic Fire Breath - 25, 6 Sec recharge

7/2
Drohung-Tipped Vermittlung - 20-40, 0 Sec recharge

7/7
Proton-Pack Rifle – 5-29 (ugh), 12 Sec recharge

8/2
Energo-Sword – 1-37
Laser-Blazer Broadsword – 11-27, 0 Sec recharge

9/1
Sonic-Stun Gun – 15-23, 12 Sec recharge

9/2
Extinguisher Rifle - 21-23, 12 Sec recharge

9/3
Neptune Sword - 15-33, 0 Sec recharge

9/4
Acid Rainmaker - 25-27, 6 Sec recharge
Particle Beam Cannon - 1-51, 6 Sec recharge

10/2
Laser-Guided Sword – 23-25, 0 Sec recharge
Photon Laser - 4-44, 12 Sec recharge

10/3
Gatling Gun - 23-29, 0 Sec recharge

10/7
Rocket-Propelled Mortar Shells - 1-61 (blah), 12 Sec recharge

10/10
Fusion Cannon – 30-71, 6 Sec recharge
Magnus Hammer – 30-71, 6 Sec recharge
Gamma Ray Blaster - 30-71, 6 recharge
Dreadnaught Missile - 61-75, 30 Sec recharge nerfed to 30-71, 6 recharge

iacon-index-look-here-for-directions-and-information-t50507.php This thread has the maths for bots.

All Basic weapons that are in stock now have damage ranges.

Despite the varying ranges there is no stand-out performer: they all have a median damage of 9 making them rather balanced.

But the null ray is still rubbish, right?

Peasant Seeker pizza delivery garbage cannons

Redimus wrote:I'd personally go for the Xray, because you're guaranteed to always do at least 9. But given a long enough stretch of time, it won't make much difference.

Psychout wrote:But the null ray is still rubbish, right?

Peasant Seeker pizza delivery garbage cannons

You both realize that you now officially owe Nem an apology right?

Considering the XS2 seems OP (testing still pending) & seems unlikely to get a restock that's not a viable option for everyone.

Dishing out the xp for 2FRP my be nothing to us but for level 0's and 1's that xp could be better utilized elsewhere (SPD comes to mind) so sometimes rubbish is necessary.

Or sometimes people just want the flavorful weapon for their character despite the terrible stats (guilty as charged with my beloved shovel)

Long story short: They may be rubbish weapons but we were all wrong telling BW the Nulls were better than the X-Rays.

Bun-Bun wrote:Considering the XS2 seems OP (testing still pending) & seems unlikely to get a restock that's not a viable option for everyone.

Dishing out the xp for 2FRP my be nothing to us but for level 0's and 1's that xp could be better utilized elsewhere (SPD comes to mind) so sometimes rubbish is necessary.

Or sometimes people just want the flavorful weapon for their character despite the terrible stats (guilty as charged with my beloved shovel)

Long story short: They may be rubbish weapons but we were all wrong telling BW the Nulls were better than the X-Rays.

I'm one of those L1 who usually needs the points elsewhere. The only reason I have anything in firepower is for strafing and I do have ONE with skill 2 who is a pure avoider. That one does have a light saber. I am looking forward to seeing the testing for more of the firepower weapons for strafers. Thanks Bun-Bun and Wingz for all of the hard work so far.

And thanks to Burn's quick restocking all of the Basic weapons (minus the custom and joke weapons) are finished.

There are a couple duds (X-Ray Cannon & X-Ray Pistol) but the rest all average out to 9 damage.

So If you are a lowly level 0 or 1 have confidence that there are hardly any bad choices among them.

Except null rays, as those are wielded by peasants.

Armor testing continues

Weapons testing has solved the 1/0 & 0/1 weapons

Having just given canidus a semi automatic to try, I'll be keeping an eye out for how good it actually is. Also I could have done with knowing the x ray laser was better before I outfitted all my guys (+ gals) null rays based on advice T_T not that it matters mind as aside from candi, all now wield lightsabers instead.

ZeroWolf wrote:Having just given canidus a semi automatic to try, I'll be keeping an eye out for how good it actually is. Also I could have done with knowing the x ray laser was better before I outfitted all my guys (+ gals) null rays based on advice T_T not that it matters mind as aside from candi, all now wield lightsabers instead.

The Null Ray still gives an average damage the same as the X-Ray laser so tbh they're on par with each other. I don't think it was an expected result tbh but you definitely didn't lose out.

It was definitely NOT the expected result.
We all convinced ourselves Nulls were better (except BW) and although they do have a higher potential single shot damage the X-Ray is the more consistent choice although over the long haul they should do about the same damage.

You're doing Primus' work.

Have another half mil €

Xenos Prime wrote:You're doing Primus' work.

Have another half mil €

Thank you sir


Another update.

All of the "2 upgrade" weapon damages have been calculated.
As expected testing showed that the XS2 is far and away the best weapon followed closely by the Lightsaber (We only tested the uncolored Lightsaber trusting Burn's assertion that all of the colored sabers were brought into line with it. At some point we will circle back and confirm that.

In Armor news we finally have numbers for Nano-Regenerative (8.9) and Cyber-Titanium (8.6)

Thank you to all the donors that have allowed us to work on these very expensive armors!

So has the experiment determine what is "light" vs "heavy" vs "devastating"? What I mean is there a certain range for each category? Is devastating different from one weapon to the next?

sumowrestler wrote:So has the experiment determine what is "light" vs "heavy" vs "devastating"? What I mean is there a certain range for each category? Is devastating different from one weapon to the next?

The general range of those terms has been known for over a decade:

"light" means some where between 1-5, Moderate 6-10, Heavy 11-15, Very Heavy 16-20, Devastating 21-25, Incredible 26 & up.
What we're doing is finding the exact range of each weapon.

For example, the Dol Laser:

In years past we knew that with a range of "Moderate-Heavy" it did damage somewhere between 6 (bottom of the Moderate range) and 15 (top of the heavy range). Now we know that it actually runs 10-12 (very top of the moderate range to almost the bottom of the heavy range).
In that example there wasn't a big change in how the weapon performs overall (median damage was 11 either way) but in some of the others it has.

An example that comes to mind would be the X-Ray Laser Pistol vs the Astro Blaster. Both are "light" weapons so you might assume they're the same but testing showed that while the XRLP did a consistent 5 damage the AB does 1-5 making it inferior.

The testing thus far has also disproved the belief that the Null Ray Rifle (moderate-heavy) was superior to the X-Ray Laser (moderate) when it was shown that they both had a median damage of 9 and that the XRL does a consistent 9 while the NRR will do less than that Half of the time.


tl;dr version

Yes, damage will vary between weapons within certain ranges.
Light: 1-5
Moderate: 6-10
Heavy: 11-15
Very Heavy: 16-20
Devastating: 21-25
Incredible: 26 & Greater

So I need to check canidus out with a XS2 null ray, who do I ask to get it restocked? Can't find it in the weapon shop despite having the right amount of fire power

It's only been restocked once... And I'm pretty sure Burn did it by accident.
As you can see it's terribly unbalanced (having a median damage nearly double everything else in it's bracket)(sans lightsabers which are also unbalanced) so I have a feeling they won't be restocked again unless Burn decides to make more work for himself and nerf them.

All that being said: If you don't ask you won't get... We've been using this thread to request restocks. Go ahead and try, maybe Burn will be in a good mood & feeling generous.( Stranger things have happened)

Thanks it's worth a shot, especially the amount of times they are used against me

Updated weapons.

No break out weapons in this last batch, everything was balanced.

Some of our Armor values were not what we expected so we're taking a break until such time as I can further analyze them to confirm the results.

You know I never realised how broken the lightsabers were is only the double ended one better?

ZeroWolf wrote:You know I never realised how broken the lightsabers were is only the double ended one better?

We haven't gotten to the 8 Upgrade weapons yet but if the double saber is balanced and the trend of median value increase continues as it has been then it will end up being about the same.