The Energon Pub

As some of you may know, it's possible we may have to update the game rules to account for the glitch that allows players to overboost their stats.

I'm still hoping Mkall will arrive at a coded solution to this problem, but either way, the situation highlights a particular shortcoming of HMW.

Essentially, the game has a lot of unwritten rules, and even those that are recorded, are only accessible in the forums, which I believe a majority of players ignore.

In light of that, I'd like to establish some 'hard' rules regarding the game, and at the very least have them posted on the HMW main page (stickied if possible). I'd prefer to have a "Rules/T&C" section on the sidebar between the Discussion Board and Help links, but I don't know what that would take.

First though we need to figure out what should be said and how best to say it.

I know I half-facetiously mentioned in another thread:

1) Thou shalt not break the rules of Seiberton. Specifically:
- Thou shalt not keepeth more than one account.
- Thou shalt maintain decorum appropriate to a PG-13 site. No obscene names, mottos, or bios in the game.
- Thou shalt not issue real-world threats/coersion to other players.

2) Thou shalt not share thine account with another player.

3) Thou shalt not create programs (scripts, macros, hacks, virus's etc.) to play the game for you or to cheat by harming other player's accounts or altering your own.

4) If thou findeth a glitch/loophole/etc. thou shalt report it to an admin.

5) Thou shalt abide by the word of thine Admin, even if you disagree. Specifically:
- If a glitch emerges in the game, and the Admins ask everyone to refrain from exploiting it while they fix it, you are compelled to do as they ask. Especially if exploitation of the glitch causes the game to crash.

I want to take the opportunity to open the rules to discussion though.

Feel free to make additions or refinements, and even suggest appropriate levels of punishment for different infractions.

As to the latter bit, I'm flirting with the idea of xp-penalties for infractions, as I think 'banning' is dismissed by some players as either reversible or unlikely. Especially players who are for one reason or another less concerned about extreme consequences (RL example: Death) than they are lesser ones (RL example: Castration). Obviously though, newer players will have less xp to dock, so that may not work well.

A percentage based xp penalty might work, so as to sting everyone by the same amount.

Simplest solution would be to delete the culprit's team in it's entirety.

If that doesn't work, nothing will...

Whisper wrote:Simplest solution would be to delete the culprit's team in it's entirety.

If that doesn't work, nothing will...

I'd prefer to derive a punishment that is more scalable, so that it can be adjusted to match the severity of the infraction. Traditionally such a punishment has been ban for x # of weeks, but that's always been... ambiguous to enforce.

Plus, as I said, I believe 'extreme punishments' frequently don't make effective deterrents. We could chew on the societal ramifications and underlying psychological causes for that phenomenon, but when it comes right down to it, a more 'tangible' defined punishment is more effective IMO.

And, I confess, part of the problem is, and you guys may not believe this, the staff is kind of warm-and-fuzzy, and if the only accepted punishment is too harsh, I think we'll tend to let a lot of stuff slide so we don't have to go through with it.

Really?

Caelus wrote:I'd prefer to derive a punishment that is more scalable, so that it can be adjusted to match the severity of the infraction. Traditionally such a punishment has been ban for x # of weeks, but that's always been... ambiguous to enforce.

Plus, as I said, I believe 'extreme punishments' frequently don't make effective deterrents. We could chew on the societal ramifications and underlying psychological causes for that phenomenon, but when it comes right down to it, a more 'tangible' defined punishment is more effective IMO.

And, I confess, part of the problem is, and you guys may not believe this, the staff is kind of warm-and-fuzzy, and if the only accepted punishment is too harsh, I think we'll tend to let a lot of stuff slide so we don't have to go through with it.

I can understand where you're coming from Caelus, but the 'warm and fuzzy' approach is tantamount to a mere slap on the wrist and a telling off, which these days is about as much use as Windows Vista. I can assure you that the good old 'baseball bat upside the head' approach will be much more effective...

Caelus wrote:And, I confess, part of the problem is, and you guys may not believe this, the staff is kind of warm-and-fuzzy, and if the only accepted punishment is too harsh, I think we'll tend to let a lot of stuff slide so we don't have to go through with it.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


ahhhhh good one Caelus. I remember how that stance was taken towards Ghost Rider and how despite many "warm and fuzzy" warnings him and his buddies continued to violate rules.

Seriously, given how some exploits pop up at random it may be a bit hard to set punishment guidelines.

Like JP said, a % amount of their xp, 2% first offense, 5% second offense and then total removal for 3rd offense (three strikes you're out on the forum rule). That's for in game violations.

Forum violations still go by the forum rules, any violations done on the forums should be dealt with by the forum rules.

Ahhh... the good ol' days. When we had concrete proof of the wrong doings of certain players... and it was all ignored.

No! We look to the future now.


Oh wait...

Burn wrote:

Caelus wrote:And, I confess, part of the problem is, and you guys may not believe this, the staff is kind of warm-and-fuzzy, and if the only accepted punishment is too harsh, I think we'll tend to let a lot of stuff slide so we don't have to go through with it.

I remember how that stance was taken towards Ghost Rider and how despite many "warm and fuzzy" warnings him and his buddies continued to violate rules.

See, I'm thinking the warnings may carry a lot more weight if they're accompanied by an actual punishment. As opposed to the mods saying 'we're gonna ban you if you keep this up' several times before finally doing it. (Also, its amazing how, whenever we do ban someone after two or three warnings, they always seem to be shocked and people pitch a fit.)

And of course, the players may not necessarily ever look at the forums, meaning they may never see their PM box. A hefty xp penalty will give them a reason to check their inbox.

Seriously, given how some exploits pop up at random it may be a bit hard to set punishment guidelines.

Well, I don't think I'd ever be inclined to punish someone for exploiting a glitch that hasn't been discovered yet. We'd have to put up a really ambiguous rule saying that if you find a what you think might maybe possibly be a glitch you must report it, and enforcing that would be a nightmare.

Like JP said, a % amount of their xp, 2% first offense, 5% second offense and then total removal for 3rd offense (three strikes you're out on the forum rule).

Wow, guess I'm not so warm-and-fuzzy as I thought. I was thinking 10%, 20%, 50%, 100%. How many players would even notice 1%?

My other issue is that not all infractions are equal. There will probably be first-time infractions that warrant a hefty dock or expulsion, and third time infractions that warrant a slap on the wrist.

Forum violations still go by the forum rules, any violations done on the forums should be dealt with by the forum rules.

Of course. But at the moment I'm mostly interested in establishing a set of rules accessible to people that never look at the forums.

Caelus wrote:See, I'm thinking the warnings may carry a lot more weight if they're accompanied by an actual punishment. As opposed to the mods saying 'we're gonna ban you if you keep this up' several times before finally doing it. (Also, its amazing how, whenever we do ban someone after two or three warnings, they always seem to be shocked and people pitch a fit.)

Moreso with no warning though.

Caelus wrote:Wow, guess I'm not so warm-and-fuzzy as I thought. I was thinking 10%, 20%, 50%, 100%. How many players would even notice 1%?

I gain about 3-5% a day, at least. I figured it should be 10%, 20% then 100%.

A question: Is it possible to do anything with the players Xp? If I remember right, the Xp is only used to upgrade stats, not lowering them directly (remember the quints? They had basically 0 Xp with hell-of-a-lot stats)

So, removing Xp from anybody won't lower his powers, just stop him from upgrading for a looooooooooooooooooong time.

Chaoslock wrote:A question: Is it possible to do anything with the players Xp? If I remember right, the Xp is only used to upgrade stats, not lowering them directly (remember the quints? They had basically 0 Xp with hell-of-a-lot stats)

So, removing Xp from anybody won't lower his powers, just stop him from upgrading for a looooooooooooooooooong time.

They'll also lose the xp if they reset their bots, which a lot of us do semiregularly. That's the other-reason it needs to be a fairly large cut.

If we're concerned that players will simply suck it up and forgo resetting, I can take control of their character (move it to my team) and make alterations (read: reset forcibly), or I can delete it entirely.

Maybe instead of -10%, -20%, -50%, Ban, it should be loose your top bot, loose your top 3 bots, loose your top 6 bots, Ban.

Jeep! wrote:

Caelus wrote:See, I'm thinking the warnings may carry a lot more weight if they're accompanied by an actual punishment. As opposed to the mods saying 'we're gonna ban you if you keep this up' several times before finally doing it. (Also, its amazing how, whenever we do ban someone after two or three warnings, they always seem to be shocked and people pitch a fit.)

Moreso with no warning though.

As I've said before, when it comes to the forums, in-thread and 'blanket' warnings count the same as individual PMed warnings. And the 'Caboose-Logic' of choosing to ignore those warnings doesn't mean they don't count.

Caelus wrote:

Chaoslock wrote:A question: Is it possible to do anything with the players Xp? If I remember right, the Xp is only used to upgrade stats, not lowering them directly (remember the quints? They had basically 0 Xp with hell-of-a-lot stats)

So, removing Xp from anybody won't lower his powers, just stop him from upgrading for a looooooooooooooooooong time.

They'll also lose the xp if they reset their bots, which a lot of us do semiregularly. That's the other-reason it needs to be a fairly large cut.

If we're concerned that players will simply suck it up and forgo resetting, I can take control of their character (move it to my team) and make alterations (read: reset forcibly), or I can delete it entirely.

Maybe instead of -10%, -20%, -50%, Ban, it should be loose your top bot, loose your top 3 bots, loose your top 6 bots, Ban.

The losing characters seem a little too much, but there was a "Go to prison" idea - meaning the top 2-4-6-12 characters are unavailable for 1-2-3-infinite weeks; or the idea of visual forcement - the characters become barbie alts, strange colors and such...

Chaoslock wrote:The losing characters seem a little too much, but there was a "Go to prison" idea - meaning the top 2-4-6-12 characters are unavailable for 1-2-3-infinite weeks; or the idea of visual forcement - the characters become barbie alts, strange colors and such...

If its handled well by good mods, then xp docking would be both a suitable and fair punishment for repeat offenders but should be a last resort before bannage, 'imprisonment' (or suspenstion of characters) would probably work better, and would be noticed faster.

Not everyone keeps a record of their xp gains.

Thinking of just the overboost exploit (or other similar exploits specific to a character), in terms of progression of punishment, how about...

- Notification via PM about the violation, asking player to reset their character(s).
- Warning via PM about the violation, telling player to reset their character(s).
- Offending character(s) forcibly reset. Character loses armor and alt mode but no xp.
- Offending character(s) forcibly reset, character loses 10% of their total xp.
- Offending character(s) forcibly reset, character loses 25% of their total xp.
- Offending character(s) forcibly reset, character loses 50% of their total xp.
- Offending character(s) deleted.

Caelus wrote:And of course, the players may not necessarily ever look at the forums, meaning they may never see their PM box. A hefty xp penalty will give them a reason to check their inbox.

Would there be any possibility of adding a link to one's PM inbox to the Registry page? For instance, add the "[x] new messages" link that appears on the forums to the line at the top of the Registry page that has [Registry] [View Team] [Edit Team] [Alt Modes] [Options].

Chaoslock wrote:the idea of visual forcement - the characters become barbie alts, strange colors and such...

I thought about the Scarlet Letter approach, but in this community, it would very quickly become a 'badge of honor' type thing.

Caelus wrote:

Seriously, given how some exploits pop up at random it may be a bit hard to set punishment guidelines.

Well, I don't think I'd ever be inclined to punish someone for exploiting a glitch that hasn't been discovered yet. We'd have to put up a really ambiguous rule saying that if you find a what you think might maybe possibly be a glitch you must report it, and enforcing that would be a nightmare.

Oh yes I remember the fun we had with that.

"Rice-Ci and Co. have been banned for using illegal weapons and utilising the over-amped medics"

1 week later.

"Rice and Co. have been reinstated with xp bonuses for discovering this flaw in the game and helping us to correct it".

This is why some of us are a little edgy towards Mods and the idea of punishments. History has shown more often than not a "sit on hands" type of attitude until the forums exploded and the wrong people ended up suspended or banned.

Don't get me wrong, i'm glad we have a thread like this and things are getting discussed, i'm just disappointed it's taken nearly 5 years and countless flame wars and bullshit to get to it.

Burn wrote:

Caelus wrote:Well, I don't think I'd ever be inclined to punish someone for exploiting a glitch that hasn't been discovered yet. We'd have to put up a really ambiguous rule saying that if you find a what you think might maybe possibly be a glitch you must report it, and enforcing that would be a nightmare.

Oh yes I remember the fun we had with that.

"Rice-Ci and Co. have been banned for using illegal weapons and utilising the over-amped medics"

1 week later.

"Rice and Co. have been reinstated with xp bonuses for discovering this flaw in the game and helping us to correct it".

This is why some of us are a little edgy towards Mods and the idea of punishments. History has shown more often than not a "sit on hands" type of attitude until the forums exploded and the wrong people ended up suspended or banned.

Jog my memory Burn: how many of the current mods were on the staff when all that happened?

Don't get me wrong, i'm glad we have a thread like this and things are getting discussed, i'm just disappointed it's taken nearly 5 years and countless flame wars and bullshit to get to it.

Unfortunately the waves of hostility the staff (whoever that may be at the time) gets in response to any attempt to do anything, really encourages the staff to just take a laissez-faire approach to the game.

I mean, look at this thread - noble intentions yes? But the bickering so far (I'm to fault as well on that) and the general negativity and cynicism that has inundated it portents a dismal end.

Caelus wrote:

Burn wrote:

Caelus wrote:Well, I don't think I'd ever be inclined to punish someone for exploiting a glitch that hasn't been discovered yet. We'd have to put up a really ambiguous rule saying that if you find a what you think might maybe possibly be a glitch you must report it, and enforcing that would be a nightmare.

Oh yes I remember the fun we had with that.

"Rice-Ci and Co. have been banned for using illegal weapons and utilising the over-amped medics"

1 week later.

"Rice and Co. have been reinstated with xp bonuses for discovering this flaw in the game and helping us to correct it".

This is why some of us are a little edgy towards Mods and the idea of punishments. History has shown more often than not a "sit on hands" type of attitude until the forums exploded and the wrong people ended up suspended or banned.

Jog my memory Burn: how many of the current mods were on the staff when all that happened?

Depends how 'current' Alpha Strike is. For practical purposes, none.

Caelus wrote:I mean, look at this thread - noble intentions yes? But the bickering so far (I'm to fault as well on that) and the general negativity and cynicism that has inundated it portents a dismal end.

At least we've settled on xp docking as a suitable form of punishment, which is something worthwhile. Sooner or later, all threads in this forum end up with some sort of argument, spamming, or sniping.

Caelus wrote:Jog my memory Burn: how many of the current mods were on the staff when all that happened?

AS maybe, I dunno, it's hard to remember when he last did something.

I mean, look at this thread - noble intentions yes? But the bickering so far (I'm to fault as well on that) and the general negativity and cynicism that has inundated it portents a dismal end.

I think you're seeing more than is actually there. Yes, there's been negativity BUT there's been positivity. Ideas have been put forth and discussions have been made.

I'm the first to advocate leaving things in the past BUT in this case bringing up the past will help us look at the mistakes made and learn from them.

It may seem negative but it's a necessity to get this finally hammered out so we can move forward.

Burn wrote:I think you're seeing more than is actually there. Yes, there's been negativity BUT there's been positivity. Ideas have been put forth and discussions have been made.

Well, that's true I suppose, but there's also been a bit of defeatist 'who cares things will never change anyway' attitude that's less than constructive.

Moving on though, hefty xp penalties seem good for some situations - but following a different train, would team confiscation as Chaoslock suggested be preferable to the traditional temporary bannings from the forums?

Perhaps team confiscation should be a punishment specific to people who exploit glitches, and their team is repo'ed until the glitch is fixed or a reasonable amount of time passes? Prevents them from capitalizing on the problem but is not so severe as being banned from the site.

And Scantron: I'd love to have a PM notice-thingy within HMW somewhere since, if nothing else, it could be used to draw some of the nonforum people into tourneys and such. A lot of us have barked for a while about that (or something similar, like the Walls on Facebook) and never gotten it though. But I suppose it's been a while; should put that on the list of things to pursue along with getting a HMWNews Mod on the staff and a 'rules section' on the side-bar. (Someone remind me every couple of weeks via PM if none of that seems to go anywhere.)

When you talk confiscation I assume you mean moving the team to another account.

So I don't know if you tested this, when you moved your wife's character over to you, was she able to just create another character in that empty slot?

Basically, if you move a person's team, what's stopping them from using the empty slots to just create new characters and keep playing?

And if you want a reminder ... the "Report this Profile" button (the one idea of mine OS readily accepted) where people can report profiles if there's naughty words in the bio or other offensive material, it can also be used to report any potential exploits.

Burn wrote:When you talk confiscation I assume you mean moving the team to another account.

So I don't know if you tested this, when you moved your wife's character over to you, was she able to just create another character in that empty slot?

Very good question. As the owl said, let's find out...


Edit:

Interesting.

She can indeed create a new character.

However, as soon as I restore her original character, it gets bumped off the registry and is only viewable from the [VIEW TEAM] page. Essentially, only the top twelve bots in a person's team are ever playable.

So, yes, a person could create a new team, effectively starting over from scratch, but when their term of punishment ends, they still will only have 12 playable characters.

So, one big flaw in this plan is that this punishment is much more severe for a level 11 player than for a level 0 player, since it is essentially forcing them to start over as opposed to preventing them from playing...

So we're back to Xp docking again. Not necessarily a bad thing. For my part, I think I'd rather be suspended for three weeks or lose my team for three weeks than lose xp I've already accumulated. The latter is a far more terrifying punishment.

On the other hand, if there were going to be permanent character repos, I was looking forward to a hobby of collecting illegal TFs. I guess if it was permanent loss they'd be deleted though...

I think I've suggested this before but I'll try again...

It would take some coding to be sure but instead of a simple 'imprisoning' you could throw offenders into 'the stocks'

People could challenge those offenders at will, keeping all xp and energon generated (it would all have to be greatly reduced from a normal mission/arena to prevent abuse)

This would keep the offending party from gaining anything (at at the end of the punishment term a XP penalty could be applied) and it would also help morale of the Players that were potentially victims of the exploiter since they'd get to either beat the snot out of the offenders mechs or at the very least get the snot beaten out of them but still get all the XP/En generated by the offender.

As far as the rules in the first post... they seem fine to me.

Burn,
I like your idea about the report button... I have a pretty darned long list of suspected dual-accounts i've been sitting on.

Caelus, as far as being penalised for 'exploiting' glitches go, im a little concerned.

This is one of my bottom 3 characters, Primal Fear.
He is a convoy alt gained 3 years ago in the War of Identity tournament and has a couple of glitches, neither of which I could do anything to prevent.

1) He has dol laser rifle armed without the required Frp.
The only member of my team that has this, its from the oops-up last June when OS rolled us all back by 3 months but our weapons remained attached to our profiles. I cant deselect it without putting the xp into Frp, but its hard enough to upgrade the character as it is, Frp being way down on the list of priorities, and xp is even harder to come by for this guy as...

2) ...he still has a sizeable amount of xp tied up in his redundant robot mode stats that I cant get back. I actually have this problem on 3 of my characters, Darth Parsley and Hard Wired too, and im sucking it up and ignoring it with no complaints (as long as I get to keep the alts im happy), but PF is the only one with the gun glitch on it as well.

I know its not a game-breaking glitch, but I really dont want to lose my alt after 3 years of hard work cos of two cock-ups by OS, nor do I want to be penalised for it either.

Any suggestions on what I should do?