The Energon Pub

It used to be that my pre-order page was packed with upcoming released for 3rd party merchandise to fuel my classics collection.

Every month those numbers seem to be dwindling and there are fewer non-MP 3rd party toys being announced all the time.

So, it seems to me that there are a few things happening that could account for this:

1. The MP hype train has a full head of steam and since more of the "popular" characters there have yet to be done, that's where the focus and effort is going.

2. Classics is closing out. As we move more and more towards the obscure, it becomes harder and harder to justify the high price points for these figures. Quickswitch is a great example. Surprisingly, this toy did poorly despite being a well done version of a complicated, interesting, late G1 figure.

3. Combiner Wars and a re-energized Hasbro have pulled the pricing rug out from 3rd Party toys.

The ordering I present these in is the order I think holds the most relevancy. I really think the companies have switched to a more profitable model with the MP figures. Classics is nearing "completion" in a way. Lastly, I think the Hasbro efforts have done what they needed to, but I don't think it's done much on the demand side.

See, I think a lot of people who wouldn't buy 3rd party stuff are now wholeheartedly into the new Generations toys. Yet, the people who were buying a lot of 3rd party stuff aren't really affected because that buying demographic was going to buy both anyway.

All this being said, I think that the "Classics" take from 3rd party stuff is going to venture pretty hard into IDW's world now. The designs in the comics are so complicated and fluid that these companies can take advantage of designs that would never reach retail anyway. The upcoming Tarn is a good example and the recent Vox is another.

What do you think? Anyone else seeing these changes like I am?

I dunno, we'll see. I think we're due for a break, to be honest. 3Ps sold way, WAY too much all at once to get a handle on. And, with Combiner Wars coming out, official product is treading on ground 3Ps used to take somewhat for granted.

But it's not all silent. I mean, just how many Dinobots are we getting?

Plus, newer always tends to be more in demand without exception. In a few years people may be more open to pricy high-quality figures for their Classics collection again, once the newness of what we currently have wears thin. Especially with scale being constantly mutable. This is where classics can always be open. And, yeah, IDW can usher in a whole slew of designs that are totally relevant to the adult market. At different scales. For instance, do you have just the right Soundwave at just the right size?

The 3P MP craze is understandable, but we'll see if it sticks. Maketoys, TFC, and Fanstoys can't be too happy with the new Autobot announcements. And that's a risk 3Ps will always run, but I think it may be especially problematic with 3Ps. Because once Takara announces something (which they do often) 3Ps are left in the lurch.

Definitely. A year or so back my preorders at BBTS were almost all third party, to the point where there was virtually no Hasbro stuff.

I think we are nearing completion, off the top of my head there are only a couple more '84-'86 characters who haven't got a decent figure from someone. With Hasbro showing Sky Lynx, I think Trypticon is the main omission and with 'Titan Wars' I think it's a brave company that takes a punt on making one.

I actually think the entire third party market is in decline. Peak was probably 12-24 months ago at some not yet discernible point. You've definitely pointed out three major factors, and I can comment on those and add a fourth (though it's related to your third factor, but not quite the same).

1 - This is very much a thing, but the reason I find this to be a bellweather for the entire market to be declining (remember, not "on the way out", just declining from a peak) is that the size of the Masterpiece collector market is a fraction of the size of the Classics collector market. The success these companies experienced at their outset was aided in a big way by collectors already having a big group of other things to put this stuff in with. Third parties offered enhancements to existing figures, then all new figures that filled holes in pretty thorough and comprehensive collections. This somewhat comprehensive nature (not as much so now, but in retrospect) was fueled initially by mainline figures with a low cost of entry. The Masterpiece figures, even Hasbro releases, don't offer that accessibility, so the market potential is just not as great. Recent events such as Fans Toys' hesitation to re-release Quakewave and MP Hound rumors highlight another greater risk here that doesn't hold true in the "Classics"-verse: generally, even very dedicated third party collectors will choose an official Masterpiece toy over a third party alternative. With Classics, the line is pretty clear cut, and the third party option is typically an objectively better toy. With Masterpiece, this line is not only blurred, but the sides are almost reversed (though to a lesser degree of separation). I think of last night, when I opened up Tesla. Really nice, and I quite enjoy it, but something in the back of my head said "Takara could do this better and it would have cost less". Not really a thought I had often, if ever, with third party Classics toys.

2 - This can't be said enough. So much now could be upgraded, but what holes really exist to still be filled by either official product or third party in one form or another in Classics? Sure, there's some crap out there ('sup Perfect Effect?) but we'll take any reasonable representation to be a filled spot, as well as upcoming figures like Sky Lynx, FP Highbrow, etc. Let's consider G1 toys from '84 to '87 and make a list:

• Omnibots
• Powerdashers
• Venom
• Grotusque
• Doublecross
• Repugnus
• Sureshot
• Pointblank
• Crosshairs
• Flywheels
• Triggerhappy
• Slugslinger Energon one seemed too much of a stretch
• Misfire
• Apeface
• Trypticon

Now, yes, this could keep going to hit '88, maybe '89 and that would be reasonable, but as you can see from even this list things start to get quite obscure quite quickly at that point. Counterpunch's example of Quickswitch also shows this isn't always a good plan, and on top of that, the few truly popular characters from late run G1 Marvel comics (Bludgeon, Thunderwing, etc) have been done already.

Put another way, the above list is probably just above the minimum of what a Classics collector would still lack, and with just a couple exceptions that list isn't going to tear it up from a sales perspective.

3 - I somewhat agree with you here, but there are most definitely third party buyers that have been removed from the equation due to this. While a good majority of folks getting third party toys are what you'd really call third party collectors getting a few items a month, there's also a pretty significant amount of folks that get one or two third party toys a year that are likely to be much more hesitant to get them - especially if a decent option exists officially.

4 - Overall collector dollar strain. Say you're an unfocused, completionist a-hole. Put another way, you're me. Fan of the brand, has/buys nearly everything official that comes out (in this country), including online and store exclusives. There's just not as much fun money to go around. Good luck keeping up with Platinum Edition, Masterpiece, Generations, RiD 2015, and third party. That requires liquidity that's not only well beyond the means of most, it's well beyond the reasonable cash/cash equivalent expense level that most would throw out there even with those means.

I could ramble on longer, but I'll save at least a bit for replies and such.

As a counterpoint to "all the holes are filled", it begs to ask if they're filled well enough for nobody to want another version ever again. If all the options are only so-so, there's still room for growth. Although it'll take a few years for people to get sick of what they already have.

And I also wonder if the 3Ps will make any full figures to go with Combiner Wars stuff. I'm really hoping for Sweeps myself.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:As a counterpoint to "all the holes are filled", it begs to ask if they're filled well enough for nobody to want another version ever again. If all the options are only so-so, there's still room for growth. Although it'll take a few years for people to get sick of what they already have.

Oh, very fair to point out and my argument is lop-sided in that regard to illustrate a point Point being, easiest way for one of these companies that presumably has a low risk-tolerance to score a home run with a Classics toy is to try and fill a spot for a character that hasn't been done in that style yet in any form.

Classics will not be complete until someone (HasTak or 3P) brings out Seacons.

Delta Magnus wrote:Classics will not be complete until someone (HasTak or 3P) brings out Seacons.

And for me, the Monster Pretenders... but those two groups and my Classics collection will be very nearly complete.

I think that's one of the big things. Nine times out of ten, I don't by multiple versions of the same figure for my Classics collection. I got Crossfire II, put it together with the original Classics Combaticons... and I'm not getting the new CW version, or Warbotron. I got Maketoys' Quantron, so no need for another COmputron. I'm only getting one Dinobot team, too. So on and so forth.

Yes, there's characters I still need/want, but not too many overall.And when I get them... that's the end of it for me.

ScottyP wrote:I actually think the entire third party market is in decline. Peak was probably 12-24 months ago at some not yet discernible point. You've definitely pointed out three major factors, and I can comment on those and add a fourth (though it's related to your third factor, but not quite the same).

1 - This is very much a thing, but the reason I find this to be a bellweather for the entire market to be declining (remember, not "on the way out", just declining from a peak) is that the size of the Masterpiece collector market is a fraction of the size of the Classics collector market. The success these companies experienced at their outset was aided in a big way by collectors already having a big group of other things to put this stuff in with. Third parties offered enhancements to existing figures, then all new figures that filled holes in pretty thorough and comprehensive collections. This somewhat comprehensive nature (not as much so now, but in retrospect) was fueled initially by mainline figures with a low cost of entry. The Masterpiece figures, even Hasbro releases, don't offer that accessibility, so the market potential is just not as great. Recent events such as Fans Toys' hesitation to re-release Quakewave and MP Hound rumors highlight another greater risk here that doesn't hold true in the "Classics"-verse: generally, even very dedicated third party collectors will choose an official Masterpiece toy over a third party alternative. With Classics, the line is pretty clear cut, and the third party option is typically an objectively better toy. With Masterpiece, this line is not only blurred, but the sides are almost reversed (though to a lesser degree of separation). I think of last night, when I opened up Tesla. Really nice, and I quite enjoy it, but something in the back of my head said "Takara could do this better and it would have cost less". Not really a thought I had often, if ever, with third party Classics toys.

2 - This can't be said enough. So much now could be upgraded, but what holes really exist to still be filled by either official product or third party in one form or another in Classics? Sure, there's some crap out there ('sup Perfect Effect?) but we'll take any reasonable representation to be a filled spot, as well as upcoming figures like Sky Lynx, FP Highbrow, etc. Let's consider G1 toys from '84 to '87 and make a list:

• Omnibots
• Powerdashers
• Venom
• Grotusque
• Doublecross
• Repugnus
• Sureshot
• Pointblank
• Crosshairs
• Flywheels
• Triggerhappy
• Slugslinger Energon one seemed too much of a stretch
• Misfire
• Apeface
• Trypticon

Now, yes, this could keep going to hit '88, maybe '89 and that would be reasonable, but as you can see from even this list things start to get quite obscure quite quickly at that point. Counterpunch's example of Quickswitch also shows this isn't always a good plan, and on top of that, the few truly popular characters from late run G1 Marvel comics (Bludgeon, Thunderwing, etc) have been done already.

Put another way, the above list is probably just above the minimum of what a Classics collector would still lack, and with just a couple exceptions that list isn't going to tear it up from a sales perspective.

3 - I somewhat agree with you here, but there are most definitely third party buyers that have been removed from the equation due to this. While a good majority of folks getting third party toys are what you'd really call third party collectors getting a few items a month, there's also a pretty significant amount of folks that get one or two third party toys a year that are likely to be much more hesitant to get them - especially if a decent option exists officially.

4 - Overall collector dollar strain. Say you're an unfocused, completionist a-hole. Put another way, you're me. Fan of the brand, has/buys nearly everything official that comes out (in this country), including online and store exclusives. There's just not as much fun money to go around. Good luck keeping up with Platinum Edition, Masterpiece, Generations, RiD 2015, and third party. That requires liquidity that's not only well beyond the means of most, it's well beyond the reasonable cash/cash equivalent expense level that most would throw out there even with those means.

I could ramble on longer, but I'll save at least a bit for replies and such.

You are right on the money

I reckon that the classics 3rd party height was probably around the 2011 to 2013 time frame but I think they have started to decline alot. Maybe its me or just because the news of products that don't interest me but it seems there is just more MP scale stuff over classics. PE had a huge break between the motobots the combiner wars add-ons. Even FP have just seemed to concentrate on the Dinobots and a couple of repaints headmasters. I was looking forward to FP's Apeface and Skullcruncher.

There are still a lot of homages these guys could try out like deluxe or scout scale micromaster teams or duocons. Even the minispies would be quite cool.

I, too, agree. Plus, my wallet and accountant are begging for relief, so I am not too upset.

As long as PlanetX and FP finish their Dinobots, I'll be happy.

I'd like to see a decent (fused) Rack'n'Ruin to complete my wreckers.

I don't need to see a completionist Legends sized collection, but I am enjoying those figures in the Classics lull.

I think that's it. With the near completion of the American G1 animated casts, I can be happy...

I'm in agreement for the most part. Like you all, I think that the MP thing is the hot topic and groups want to get their designs out there before they're quashed by HasTak.

With no sign of the Beast Combiners from Hasbro (aside from a couple rumours that hasn't panned out yet at SDCC), and the TFCC doing a 1987 grab bag for their TFSS 4, I think there's a limited, but closing window in some areas for Classics 3rd Party to come to market, but it won't last much longer.

And as much as I wish it were so, there probably isn't enough demand for getting many of the Japanese characters made.

I think CHUG has slowed down but has not stopped. It's just that with Combiner Wars, Hasbro is actually relevant again. But with that being said, 3rd parties will always be around to fix Hasbro's missed targets due to kiddie safety rules. Perfect Effect is making a killing because the Combiner Wars hands/feet flat out suck and make otherwise awesome combiners look like robot monkeys. And Dr. Wu and Renderform also get a nice chunk of profit fixing all of Hasbro's dumb looking accessories geared towards toddlers. When it comes to full blown 3rd party figures, there's plenty that are new and plenty more coming. Ordin is finally just about to be complete. Fansproject is doing more Dinobots, Headmasters, and eventually Monstructor. Toyworld and Shuraking have there Dinobot combiners. Planet X is still even trying to keep a dead video game alive in the hearts of loyal fans. MMC is doing Impactor and the DJD crew. And one day they might even do an Overlord and make somebody's life complete. There are a decent amount of gaps left to fill. The best example is Slugslinger, Triggerhappy, and Misfire. Another huge gap is Sureshot Crosshairs and Pointblank. (Ive got them covered with 2 fine stand ins and a custom)It would also be nice to get Earth versions of Pounce and Wingspan. The Mech Ideas ones are cool and all but not everybody has them. And the Botcon ones flat out suck because Funpub didn't even give them proper G1 heads. Granted people seem to be into MP stuff. I'm not because I think the extra size of MP figures is unnecessary and they are big for nothing. I buy a few MP seekers for my coffee table but don't take them seriously as a scale for displaying a cast of characters. The same thing goes for legends scale. I own a small collection of official legends figures to display with Metroplex, but overall I always felt legends figures belonged inside McDonalds Happy Meals. I don't take them seriously and would never pay 3rd party prices for them to quote another famous TF collector. I don't think CHUG is going anywhere for a while. It's just slowing down. And that's good for my wallet. I might save up for a well deserved vacation if there is not much to buy next year. Ill still be all over much of the Hasbro stuff, especially the G2 combiners. It might not be 3rd party, but it's still CHUG and it keeps me CHUGGIN.