The Energon Pub

The way that I see it is in the end, the 3rd Party companies aren't taking money away from Hasbro. If they are it's a very small percentage. Thus why should they care. If for whatever reason a company came out that can match fig-for-fig in terms of numbers, cost, and awesomeness which would pull us from HasTak to them, then things may be different.

I think the fan fallout would be crazy at first but it would wear off fast. I think as long as the 3rd parties stay on their side , so will hasbro.

I love the 3rd party stuff, I own everything that FP has made( even the CJ kit now =D) and alot of perfect effects stuff and MMC but at the same time I like alot of stuff that hasbro does. I honestly think that..in a sense..1 cannot exsist without the other..if that makes sense

Mkall wrote:If they are it's a very small percentage. Thus why should they care.

A valid point, yet let's jump into Hasbro's shoes. You have several investors with extended families to keep comfy. Your business, even now at its pinnacle of popularity, is always looking for potential growth; to take on more employees and to possibly broaden you other genres of consumerism - electronics, apparel, etc. You're telling me that you wouldn't want every penny that, in essence, is rightfully yours or could relatively easily be yours? Sure, you're not the only transforming robot toy show in town, but you certainly are the oldest & biggest (TWSS). I guess, you can say it's not that much money, but name recognition & reputation within the vocal fandom is something that equates to expanding the official brand. I just don't see any big business shying away from profit large or small unless it's a legal battle they cannot win. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if I were a stock holder, I'd vote a yea on the notion to pursue acquisition of successful 3P's.

I was a bit surprised to see TFsource selling iGear MP Ramjet at BotCon...almost makes me reconsider the whole thing. If Hasbro doesn't care enough to do anything about it, I guess why should I?

Skyfire-5 wrote:

Mkall wrote:If they are it's a very small percentage. Thus why should they care.

A valid point, yet let's jump into Hasbro's shoes. You have several investors with extended families to keep comfy. Your business, even now at its pinnacle of popularity, is always looking for potential growth; to take on more employees and to possibly broaden you other genres of consumerism - electronics, apparel, etc. You're telling me that you wouldn't want every penny that, in essence, is rightfully yours or could relatively easily be yours? Sure, you're not the only transforming robot toy show in town, but you certainly are the oldest & biggest (TWSS). I guess, you can say it's not that much money, but name recognition & reputation within the vocal fandom is something that equates to expanding the official brand. I just don't see any big business shying away from profit large or small unless it's a legal battle they cannot win. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if I were a stock holder, I'd vote a yea on the notion to pursue acquisition of successful 3P's.

I'm just guessing on this point, but I would suspect the amount of profit the 3PPs are taking away from Hasbro is much less than if Hasbro decided to actively persue taking them down, in terms of investigation costs, legal fees, bad press, etc. And that's assuming they can do it with a 100% success rate, because if not then there will still be money trading between fands and 3PPs. So in this case it's the lesser of two losses that they are probably happy with.

I honestly don't think 3P's are taking any noticable money away from Hasbro. Hasbro can sell their stuff worldwide and 3P's usually only sell to fans and not even all of us. As long as they're dependent on 'us', they'll probably never make their own figure and instead follow in the footsteps of G1. The cost of most of their product are high enough to keep it that way. Plus a good share of product add to figures Hasbro has already produced, making their core figures far more interesting to collectors (think Mangus and Rodimus).

Unless HasTak has a product that is exactly the same (ie: same character, same design size and choices) either in the market or in development for the market as 3RD PARTY product then they are losing nothing in terms of money, and potentially only a nominal amount in licensing for the likeness/concept.

I genuinely believe that HasTak probably has a very good grasp of the concept that unless a Company is in a jurisdiction they can do anything about AND are using HasTak proprietry designs/molds they don't have much of a leg to stand on.

Fansproject tends to stay away from "direct" copying of product or designs, but borrows heavily from the "concept" that a certain size and shape of Transforming Robot will conpliment exsisting Hasbro products - as in the Crossfire kits. Quite how close the Not-insecticons are going to get to treading on HasTaks toes we will find out this year because they seem to me to be a different type of product.

The likes of iGear get far closer to "piracy" of molds in producing exact copies of HasTak MP's - but even here the design changes that give you a Not-Ramjet from a HasTak Skywarp may be enough to claim a difference legally - it will be interesting to see if a chanllenge does arise in future on this type of case.

And - HasTak are on kind of dubious ground with their previous use of F15, Lambourginhis and Porsches for character designs that I'm sure they never worried about licensing at the time. The fact that they used a Not-Porsche for the recent SO Jazz shows how THEY have had to be mindfull of copyright these days - the DOTM Starscream does acknowledge that the F22 Raptor design belongs to Lockheed so they have had to pony up for a license there.

Then there is the Corporate bad feeling that may arise if they are seen to be "taking away" something that their hard-core Fanbase really likes and wants, and that in 99 of a 100 cases they had no plans for ever making anyway.

And long may that continue.

Mkall wrote:

Skyfire-5 wrote:

Mkall wrote:If they are it's a very small percentage. Thus why should they care.

A valid point, yet let's jump into Hasbro's shoes. You have several investors with extended families to keep comfy. Your business, even now at its pinnacle of popularity, is always looking for potential growth; to take on more employees and to possibly broaden you other genres of consumerism - electronics, apparel, etc. You're telling me that you wouldn't want every penny that, in essence, is rightfully yours or could relatively easily be yours? Sure, you're not the only transforming robot toy show in town, but you certainly are the oldest & biggest (TWSS). I guess, you can say it's not that much money, but name recognition & reputation within the vocal fandom is something that equates to expanding the official brand. I just don't see any big business shying away from profit large or small unless it's a legal battle they cannot win. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if I were a stock holder, I'd vote a yea on the notion to pursue acquisition of successful 3P's.

I'm just guessing on this point, but I would suspect the amount of profit the 3PPs are taking away from Hasbro is much less than if Hasbro decided to actively persue taking them down, in terms of investigation costs, legal fees, bad press, etc. And that's assuming they can do it with a 100% success rate, because if not then there will still be money trading between fands and 3PPs. So in this case it's the lesser of two losses that they are probably happy with.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! Money is language that Has/Tak speaks, and third party items aren't causing them to loose and profits and occasionally they actually cause them to sell more official product (ROTF Superion and Bruticus). Why bother?

I also don't think the 3rd parties are causing Hasbro to lose money. Hasbro markets to kids at retail, 3rd parties market to collectors. It might very well be more costly to go after them than to just leave 'em be.

If they actually cost Hasbro / Takara money I have little doubt they'd have felt the hammer come down by now.

While it's not really a surprise Hasbro doesn't try and go after companies manufacturing this product in a land that doesn't recognize our laws...it is kinda surprising they just sat back and watched KOs be sold at BotCon.

If the Third party companies are sticking to the "not for profit" game, the They are pretty much safe. There is no "get out of jail free card" when it comes to intellectual property rights though.

Most of the stuff being put out by FP, Igear, PE and so forth are all violating Hasbro's intellectual property rights. I think that from a Brand point of view, these items are not available to the average consumer. So It's not taking money or space from Hasbro. They also in no way compete with Hastak, the prices for 3P stuff is way beyond the average toy buyer. 3P is completely fan, and collector based.

I do believe that some of the real fans that work inside Hasbro might turn a blind eye to some of the stuff, due to simply being a fan, and knowing Hasbro is not gonna make this stuff in the end.

I truly believe that 3P's are a complement to Hasbro, and that they can peacefully co-exist. I do however warn of iGears ever approaching ability to make exact versions of still trademarked characters. Once one of there guy's passes that line, it's all gonna come crumbling down.

But I don't think Hasbro can really DO anything to any of these 3rd party companies. I mean if their operations and headquarters was actually in the US, then yeah, I can see the law getting in the way. But international laws for IP's, I don't know if there is anyway for a US company to shut down a company on foreign soil. Right and wrong aside, there's nothing to stop these companies from making their products. I know I've said this before, but if Hasbro wants to try and do something about it, which I'm not sure they do, they can always just avoid selling their products to those that carry these 3rd party products. Saying if you carry all these iGear, FP, and Perfect Effect products, we will no longer ship out our toys to you. Forcing the store to choose from "official" transformers products vs unofficial products. Which do you think gives a store more profit? My money will almost always go on Big Business. Let's just hope it doesn't come to this. I like to gather all my toys in one spot if possible.

Prime Evil wrote:But I don't think Hasbro can really DO anything to any of these 3rd party companies. I mean if their operations and headquarters was actually in the US, then yeah, I can see the law getting in the way. But international laws for IP's, I don't know if there is anyway for a US company to shut down a company on foreign soil. Right and wrong aside, there's nothing to stop these companies from making their products. I know I've said this before, but if Hasbro wants to try and do something about it, which I'm not sure they do, they can always just avoid selling their products to those that carry these 3rd party products. Saying if you carry all these iGear, FP, and Perfect Effect products, we will no longer ship out our toys to you. Forcing the store to choose from "official" transformers products vs unofficial products. Which do you think gives a store more profit? My money will almost always go on Big Business. Let's just hope it doesn't come to this. I like to gather all my toys in one spot if possible.

If it ever comes to that the 3p's will just sell their stuff directly, iGear already does.

If Hasbro and Takara wanted to do something about these companies then they already would have.

Counterpunch wrote:If Hasbro and Takara wanted to do something about these companies then they already would have.

I think they like the fact that they help get rid of the clearance figures.

Or do it the way Takara deals with companies like Jizai. Give them a limited license stipulating that the products be sold to "adult" only costumers (the type who can only purchase with a credit card or something like Paypal) and the retailers to also ensure that it be sold likewise.

P.S. The Powerglide sure kicks @ss like the Jizai version.

Collectors create online buzz for a companies product, free advertising, 'search engine' transformers and you'll get a million fan sites that's the real value of targeting your product to collectors as well, but selling to mostly kids.

The KO makers being in China doesn't matter, think about all the money that the gov here gets in taxes because Hasbro manufactures here, Hasbro just needs to make one phone call.

I'm sure Hasbro knows who and where some of these guys are, I heard some are even ex-Hasbro employees, with friends still in the company, that's how they get the CAD files, maybe even molds.

and if all else fails, they could just find out where they are (wouldn't be that hard), and pay the local gov or police to go knock on their door and 'investigate'.

also, isn't there something in the copyright laws that if a company doesn't actively protect it's intellectual property that they lose it?

fenrir72 wrote: the products be sold to "adult" only costumers

How does one guarantee that the cUstOmers are all costumers?

From my understanding,It's like trying to find/locate Waldo/carmen sandiego. or trying to find a needle in a hay stack.

Some say that these 3rd party companies use multiple fake addresses,multiple fake names & so forth.

I'd rather Hasbro/Takara not hire these 3rd party companies/employees to create official liscensed TF toys. Because part o the charm of these 3rd party companies is their free to do as they please. without having their ideas get thrown thru the mill & get dismissed. or WORSE having their ideas tweaked to fit in with the current TF designs/sculpts.

Sine these KO TF 3rd party companies are in the china over seas region. rules work differently over their. as the china region is the KO capital of the world. I don't think takara nor hasbro can sue these 3rd party KO TF toy companies because it's out of their juristinction.

I agree with CP and the others alike, HasTak would have done something already.

And for 3P companies to showcase at Botcon, that let's u know right there HasTak ain't worried.

I think FP would be the least of their worries, and I-gear maybe, but look at what they do but fill in a void. Hasbro gave use ROTF Bruticus, but FP gave us the parts we need to make him look like G1 Bruticus. I-gear gave use smaller size Masterpiece figures and the Coneheads since HsTak didn't feel the need to.

There will always be one figure and you'll need one form the other. They just go hand in hand.

why wouldnt they care well according to many we make up only .007% or whatever of their profits (according to many here) and as far as the mp seekers at botcon well all ill say is they shoulve released a few more seekers in the mp line instead of reengineering mp prime yet again or the fiftieth version of bb.

sorry this topic can be frustrating at times

Now this crossed my mind when i had Music label soundblaster, what if Has/tak are behind FP,PE,i gear, andTFC? Now i say this because doesnt the plastic feel the same? That was just a thought that i wanted to put out there.

I am of the mind the 3Ps are only drawing business to HasTak. Most 3P items are upgrade kits. Some, not many, are stand alone figures. As long as the majority of the products require an actual HasTak figure I think HasTak is happy to let the 3Ps exist. I think a problem will exist when the 3Ps begin to take over the TF scene, which I doubt will happen.