The Energon Pub

Found these on CHMS's weibo page, looks like they may be trying to enter the 3rd party market rather than just churning out KO's. If my Google translate is correct they say it's not Optimus Prime but like I said that's just what translate came up with. Anyhow, here ya go:

Dear 3rd Party Companies

Either show full artwork, resin pics, or the final product. These silhouettes, partial-reveals and teasers are just BS.

Mkall wrote:Dear 3rd Party Companies

Either show full artwork, resin pics, or the final product. These silhouettes, partial-reveals and teasers are just BS.

Agreed.

With the over-flooded 3rd party market, it's hard to even bother getting excited over a silhouette with a cheesey "?" on it...

Mkall wrote:Dear 3rd Party Companies

Either show full artwork, resin pics, or the final product. These silhouettes, partial-reveals and teasers are just BS.

Exactly, which is why this only forum fodder and not news.

Also found these on their weibo page. Looks like they were taking a poll at one point to gauge interest.

The symbols are neat and all, but the 3rd party market is flooded with stuff I want to buy, so a "cool" item like this just isn't for me.

If CMS is serious about making new TFs, I hope they actually make NEW TF characters that have not been done, like a Dinobot, rather than another guy like Soundwave or Powerglide.

And yeah, enough with the silhouettes! Either show us the goods or don't bother.

It looks like a hybrid-style Alternity Prime, mixed with some WFC Prime. I wonder what the style they are going for will be.

El Duque wrote:Also found these on their weibo page. Looks like they were taking a poll at one point to gauge interest.

That is incredibly cool and creative.

As far as I'm concerened "3rd party" and "KO" are pretty much interchangeable. They are companies that aren't Hasbro or Takara that make transformers. One makes copies of Has/Tak property for a profit, the other uses loopholes to make their own versions of Has/Taks property for a profit. They aren't really that much different from each other really. I hate when people ride the fence on this issue, supporting 3rd parties but bashing KOs.

Officially, I like both while owning neither. Though, as far as I'm concerned, CMS entered "3rd party" realm when the started knocking off the classics seekers. They legitimized themselves as a better 3rd party when they started making good knockoffs of classics seekers. But I agree with most others. Don't waste my time until you actually have something to show me. The silhouette thing gets on my nerves.

I'd support them if...The quality is good and they make stuff I like. That's bottom line here, I mean hell I buy fansproject stuff because it's friggin awesome! Same goes for these guys. I have alot of the CHMS( seekers, deep cover) and I like it, they have small QC issues but I can see the quality is there...

I can understand wanting to create hype for upcoming products through teasing with silhouettes but I agree with others who have said that there must be more offered than just an outline of something. I would also add that concept design art such as product sketches and CAD images are nice to see but I would rather see WiP prototypes at the very least if a company announces their products.

joesaysso wrote:As far as I'm concerened "3rd party" and "KO" are pretty much interchangeable. They are companies that aren't Hasbro or Takara that make transformers. One makes copies of Has/Tak property for a profit, the other uses loopholes to make their own versions of Has/Taks property for a profit. They aren't really that much different from each other really. I hate when people ride the fence on this issue, supporting 3rd parties but bashing KOs.

I'll agree with this provided we put Hasbro in the same category for making Legos...and "borrowing" unlicensed alt mode designs.

Kibble wrote:

joesaysso wrote:As far as I'm concerened "3rd party" and "KO" are pretty much interchangeable. They are companies that aren't Hasbro or Takara that make transformers. One makes copies of Has/Tak property for a profit, the other uses loopholes to make their own versions of Has/Taks property for a profit. They aren't really that much different from each other really. I hate when people ride the fence on this issue, supporting 3rd parties but bashing KOs.

I'll agree with this provided we put Hasbro in the same category for making Legos...and "borrowing" unlicensed alt mode designs.

Lol, Hasbro is now a KO toy producer.

El Duque wrote:

Mkall wrote:Dear 3rd Party Companies

Either show full artwork, resin pics, or the final product. These silhouettes, partial-reveals and teasers are just BS.

Exactly, which is why this only forum fodder and not news.

It wouldn't be that bad if it didn't take months and months for them to show a WiP after the silhouette (looking at you PE SW).

Kibble wrote:I'll agree with this provided we put Hasbro in the same category for making Legos...and "borrowing" unlicensed alt mode designs.

Sounds good to me. I can say that I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to. I'm not sure why you would have to license an alt mode, unless of course the alt mode was supposed to be something very specific. But I'm not sure how it can be when it comes to legos.

Either way, you won't hear me defend Hasbro in many debates. If you think they are knocking off legos is some way, then by all means, add them to the list.

joesaysso wrote:

Kibble wrote:I'll agree with this provided we put Hasbro in the same category for making Legos...and "borrowing" unlicensed alt mode designs.

Sounds good to me. I can say that I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to. I'm not sure why you would have to license an alt mode, unless of course the alt mode was supposed to be something very specific. But I'm not sure how it can be when it comes to legos.

Either way, you won't hear me defend Hasbro in many debates. If you think they are knocking off legos is some way, then by all means, add them to the list.

No more specific than what certain 3rd Partiers do when they design original molds that resemble HasTak characters... They're not "very specific" as they have different names and no faction symbols...and generally differ a lot more than certain unlicensed alt modes HasTak uses (look at the Classics-verse lines for many examples.)

And the Lego thing, maybe it's just me, but Kre-Os seem awfully similar to Legos...

Point is there's a big difference between most 3rd Parties and KOs...and if not, Hasbro is just as guilty of the things 3rd Parties do that result in them being considered KO artists. So if it's truly all the same, then let's just call a spade a spade.

joesaysso wrote:

Kibble wrote:I'll agree with this provided we put Hasbro in the same category for making Legos...and "borrowing" unlicensed alt mode designs.

Sounds good to me. I can say that I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to. I'm not sure why you would have to license an alt mode, unless of course the alt mode was supposed to be something very specific. But I'm not sure how it can be when it comes to legos.

Either way, you won't hear me defend Hasbro in many debates. If you think they are knocking off legos is some way, then by all means, add them to the list.

im not buying your spiel. you make broad strokes about what you consider Knock Off, but you deny any defense of Hasbro? Which is it, man?

the symbol bot looks really awesome. id like a tiny one!

Kibble wrote:So if it's truly all the same, then let's just call a spade a spade.

Actually, this is pretty much my point.

Astronopolis wrote:im not buying your spiel. you make broad strokes about what you consider Knock Off, but you deny any defense of Hasbro? Which is it, man?

My "spiel" has nothing to do with knock-offs, 3rd party producers, Hasbro, or what is required to be a knock-off. Well, maybe a little bit of that last one but very indirectly. I am refering to the collectors who refuse to buy ko'd products because they aren't official Has/Tak products and their collection would be somehow less legit if they had one but have no problem loading up on third party stuff as if they are somehow more real.

At the end of the day, whether its an exact copy of Hasbro's property or someone else's own version of Hasbro's property but it has a different name and its not called a Transformer, its still draining from Has/Tak's well. And neither is truly authentic. Yet some collectors fool themselves into thinking they are different and one is somehow better than the other.

I think that this topic is a solid demonstration that they, in fact, are not. CHMS, a company known for their high quality knock-offs, is now doing another of Hasbro's properties, under their own engineering presumably, and somehow its different than a straight knock-off.

I do understand the facts that one of them is being passed off as an original in an attempt to get your money disingenuosly. However, I counter with the other one is using fanboyism against the collector to get your money disingenuously. And they are both riding Has/Tak's coat tails to get as much money out of the collector as they can without providing official Transformer products.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the existence of KO's or 3rd parties. Some cool stuff has been released by both over the years. I have said many times in these forums that I have no problem with KO's as long as they are being represented as KO's and not passed off as original. I don't own any of either currently and probably won't ever simply because fanboyism has fed into both rivers so much that the prices of both are swelling over the banks.

I think both have the same positive and negatives as far as their existence is concerned. Both expand our hobby and give us more choices, both are starting to get entirely too expensive, neither are official. I just wish more collectors would "call a spade a spade". It seems all too often, one gets gleefully accepted while the other gets stoned in the streets while I struggle to see the difference in either of them.

I do understand the facts that one of them is being passed off as an original in an attempt to get your money disingenuosly. However, I counter with the other one is using fanboyism against the collector to get your money disingenuously

I can agree with just about all of the rant except for this part. Can't see what's so disingenuous about the 3rd party products. The price may be overinflated, but nobody's forcing anyone to buy it.

Oh no, not another "to be a third party company, or not to be" thread.

ok, i agree with most of your thoughts Joe, although one i find curious is where you say essentially that 3rd party companies prey upon fanboyism to take money from hasbro. its supply and demand! this is how i see it:

for one, Hasbro knows that if they sue these companies, they wont get dick. most of them are a couple of people, or even just one person and none of 'em are getting rich. the lawsuit would cost more than any legal winnings. Its just not in their best interest.

Hasbro cant make the things 3rd parties make. they have to stick to strict legal outlines to ensure safety to more importantly be free of legal action. Not because they care, but because it cuts into their profit margin if they have to go to court. 3rd party products are intended for adults, their prices ensure that at least.

Don't forget, collectors make up only a small fraction of their income. Is buying that Warbot Defender really costing Hasbro any money? especially when you consider that Hasbro's Springer was a store exclusive for Target?

This is why i think 3rd parties are essentially their own market. they've eked out a viable niche in the economy, and to further the biological metaphor, they aren't a parasite, its symbiosis.

Astro, you misunderstood me again. I said 3rd parties prey upon your fanboyism to get as much of your money as they can. Not hasbro's. You are right hasbro lost little money off of warbot defender. But whoever paid for warbot defender lost more money than they probably should have. The prices of third party products is as big a ripoff as a junkie KO.

Yeah, I agree with the earlier point that nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything. But third party's don't have to force people to buy anything. They know that the fanboyism will takeover and people will buy. But that's no different than KO makers make toys because they know people will buy them.

Bottom line third parties and KO makers are after your money not hasbros. Prices continue to go up for both but no matter how much you pay, you aren't getting an official product. I would argue these days that the prices are a ripoff for both. But people will pay what they want to pay for the products they want to buy. And that's fine. What bothers me are the collectors who think that third parties are more legit than KOs. And that one is acceptable to collect and one isn't. I would argue that they are both essentially the same and anybody who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves. Very simply, a product is either a legit transformer or its just a transforming robot. I am not arguing which one is better. I am just saying that the line is pretty black and white but some collectors tend to blur it to justify their own feelings. I'm sure warbot defender is just as good a transforming robot action figure as chms gold Chrome seeker is.

I apologize if there is any nonsensical spelling errors. This post was typed from my phone and autocorrect likes to correct things.

joesaysso wrote:Astro, you misunderstood me again. I said 3rd parties prey upon your fanboyism to get as much of your money as they can. Not hasbro's. You are right hasbro lost little money off of warbot defender. But whoever paid for warbot defender lost more money than they probably should have. The prices of third party products is as big a ripoff as a junkie KO.

I'm not sure I buy into that really. Hasbro had it's Springer out well before Warbot came along. So did BotCon for that matter. I don't think FP cost Hasbro any cash there. And as far as price goes, it cannot be proven either way that a small third party company makes any more % profit than Hasbro does per figure. I'd venture to say that Hasbro makes a greater % profit considering there the big dog in Transformer distribution.

I think i understand where you are coming from now Joe, thanks for the clarification, however I do not fully agree.

You've got me that 3rd party products are just as legit as KO toys. They're both robot toys made by groups other than Hasbro that's for sure.

now this may just be romanticism, but i appreciate the work that goes into the development and design of a 3rd party toy. I admit i do not know what goes in to it all but a great effort is surely required, in most cases design choices have to be made due to limitations of the toy to be modified and so forth. it feels honest and admirable, so i feel a heftier price tag is appropriate.

on the other hand, to make a KO all one needs is to sacrifice an official item to make the casts and print them out, its all profit for little work in my opinion.

I do have some KO's in my possession so i am probably not the best to argue, but this is my standpoint anyway. I enjoyed the discussion at least!

amcgrath929 wrote:I'm not sure I buy into that really. Hasbro had it's Springer out well before Warbot came along. So did BotCon for that matter. I don't think FP cost Hasbro any cash there. And as far as price goes, it cannot be proven either way that a small third party company makes any more % profit than Hasbro does per figure. I'd venture to say that Hasbro makes a greater % profit considering there the big dog in Transformer distribution.

Again with the Hasbro. (busts out Obama voice) Let me be clear, (<---- he says that alot)this conversation is not at all relevent to Hasbro, in any way shape or form. The only time the name Hasbro factors into this conversation is the point that both KO and 3rd party use Hasbro properties for their profit. This fact is not disputable. As I said earlier, I do agree that Hasbro probably did not lose that much money on Warbot Defender. However, if there are any people out there that have Warbot Defender and not the Hasbro or Botcon Springer, then it can certainly be argued, especially from Hasbro's standpoint, that Hasbro did in fact lose some profit. But this isn't the issue being discussed. For the sake of the conversation, I do not care how much profit Hasbro loses due to the existence of KOs and 3rd parties. The only reason I mentioned that they both pull from Hasbro's profit earlier was to illustrate the similarities of KOs and 3rd parties in that regard. Not to suggest that I care about the issue.

For what its worth, it is my opinion that 3rd parties are feeding off of fanboyism and jacking their prices way up to maximize profit. I say this for two reasons: as stated earlier, Hasbro caters more to kids than collectors. Hasbro can rely on moving large quantities of figures at a smaller profit per figure sold but make their money on the higher volume sold. 3rd parties cater specifically to collectors. They do not move anywhere near the volume that hasbro does. Therefore, their profit per figure has to be bigger to be successful. So right out of the gate, their prices are high.

Reason #2 the fact that 3rd parties seem to be crawling out of the woodwork like roaches lately is a very good indicator that fanboyism is feeding into 3rd parties pretty heavily. If they weren't making such a huge profit, more 3rd parties wouldn't be so eager to get into the mix. This leads me to believe that 3rd party prices are excessively high and appear to be getting higher. And, collectors, of course keep feeding the monster that its becoming. When you have to pay 30 bucks to get a new head for a figure that costed less that $15 (think cliffjumper add-on kit), its gotten ridiculous. But all of this was a "since you brought it up" kind of thing. I'm not in the business of telling anybody how to spend their money. If you want to pay 30 bucks for a head, then by all means do it. I will not argue that a lot of 3rd party stuff is pretty awesome and I would probably have some of it if it was more reasonably priced. It isn't though and the pattern that I have noticed is that it is getting worse.

Astronopolis wrote:You've got me that 3rd party products are just as legit as KO toys. They're both robot toys made by groups other than Hasbro that's for sure.

Exactly, this is my whole point. I don't know why they are viewed so differently.

Astronopolis wrote:now this may just be romanticism, but i appreciate the work that goes into the development and design of a 3rd party toy. I admit i do not know what goes in to it all but a great effort is surely required, in most cases design choices have to be made due to limitations of the toy to be modified and so forth. it feels honest and admirable, so i feel a heftier price tag is appropriate.

on the other hand, to make a KO all one needs is to sacrifice an official item to make the casts and print them out, its all profit for little work in my opinion.

This is well said, I like this point. I am just going to disagree on the honest and admirable portion. Nowhere have I accussed 3rd parties of making junk. I can't speak from personal experience but I've seen enough reviews to know how highly collectors hold some of them. However, I think thats part of the problem. I believe 3rd parties are getting greedy with their pricing because their confidence is high (for good reason) that people will buy their product. The Crazydevy add on's are pretty awesome, but are they really worth more than the price of the whole figure?

I understand that "worth" is relative to who's paying the money. But man, at some point people have to stand back and look at what they are getting and what they are actually paying. I believe that both 3rd parties and straight KOs are over priced, with 3rd parties leading the pack in this department. You are paying a lot of money to get that transforming robot action figure. Too much perhaps.