The Energon Pub

Ok, first of all, I'm not here to point fingers or blame anyone, but I've been wondering about this for a while. Is it right to buy 3rd party stuff, or does doing it make me a bad guy, sort of like pirating music and movies? Is 3rd party any different than buying KOs?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I assume this stuff is technically legal? 3rd party is all over the TF-boards, so Hasbro has to know. So I assume using the likeness of a Hasbro-created character is perfectly legal as long as you don't use the names? I also assume they're not getting any sort of royalties from 3rd party sales, so I would imagine stuff like this would piss Hasbro off royally?

So, where do I, as a consumer, stand in all this? Should I feel bad for having bought 3rd party, while passing off on Hasbro's own trademarked stuff?

Any extra info or views on the subject is appreciated, as I'm pretty clueless about this sudden growing trend. Hopefully I wont start a huge flamewar (just a mild one at most ).

as a consumer it is your right to buy product from anyone you choose. I don't believe I know of any country where selling of plastic robots that turn into cars is illegal. KOs are sold in stores here, I don't feel bad buying the FP Insecticons or iGear MiniWarriors which are entirely original molds.

Likeness rights is tricky, for many reasons. I don't want to get into a whole lot of discussion about the morally grey area of creating 3rd party products, but will quickly point out that there have been a number of times Hasbro has taken inspiration from other companies products and not offered any kind of official compensation, so there are people who'd say turnabout is fair play.

Personally, if a toy looks good, and is at a price I am willing to pay, and I can find the damned thing...I'll buy it.

Is it ok to to to Walmart and by the CORPS toys, they are mission based action figures that closely resemble G.I.Joe. As long as it isn't a straight up knock off you shouldn't feel any reservations.
The economy is based on competition, to the victor go the spoils.

DISCHARGE wrote:Is it ok to to to Walmart and by the CORPS toys

No, it is not. Because those CORPS toys are a bit rubbish.

People tend to view Third Parties with a sliding scale.

There's Group 1, who think anything non-Habro or Takara just aren't Transformers, and thus should not be supported

There's Group 2, who believe that so long as it's a different design, but is similar enough in character to an existing official transformer is awesome. Note that KOs are not supported in Group 2

Group 3 believes that anything goes, be it Official TF stuff, Third Party Figures, or Knock Offs of official (or third party stuff.

Group 4 believes Hasbro and Takara are souless and evil, and that Third Parties and KO makers are the saviours to the Transformer s fandom.

As for what is legal or not, that's a grey line. I've learned that FansProject employs a lawyer who ensures that design is done in such a way that it can't be targeted by Hasbro and I suppose other 3rd parties do as well.

The problem comes (IMO of course) with how it's represented. I buy a lot of 3rd party figs, and I place most of them among my Transformers and even call them by their G1 names. However I never call it an official Hasbro Transformer. What irks me isn't so much 3rd parties, because they put their own effort into designs and production. KOs on the other-hand are illegal under the law, whether people like it or not, and are often sadly peddled as the real thing. My practice is that I buy the official stuff I want first, and if I have a financial crunch then I'll have to stop buying 3rd party stuff because I will support the official brand first and foremost as long as it interests me;.

I'm in Group 2 obviously. You will get a different answer from group 1, or 3 or 4 and because of this thread, we'll all be arguing until our fingers are red and sore and the thread gets locked.

craggy wrote:

DISCHARGE wrote:Is it ok to to to Walmart and by the CORPS toys

No, it is not. Because those CORPS toys are a bit rubbish.

Yeah, they do look like crap, but I was drawing a comparison, plus they are super cheap compared to official Joes so I bet some kids do get them over real Joes.

Well, the 3rd party guys aren't really creating original content. They're cashing in on HasTak's characetrs and designs ... sure they're redone, but obviously City Commander (for example) is supposed to be Ultra Magnus. Hasbro/Takara has made these characetrs popular and get absolutely no benefit from people making unauthorised versions of their characters.

It's sort of like if you made a comic and then someone ELSE made toys based off your comic, but just sort of different; cashing in on your success.

That's what 3rd party guys are doing. That said ...

there have been a number of times Hasbro has taken inspiration from other companies products and not offered any kind of official compensation, so there are people who'd say turnabout is fair play.

This is my stance. Besides it's my own money anyway.

A great philosopher and theorist once wrote:

A great philosopher and theorist wrote:If loving toys is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

Is it moral? No. But that's part of the fun. Some of us love the fact that it's not what we're supposed to do. Others just prefer the sculpts. I've said it once and I'll say it again: making toys is none of my business - buying toys, on the other hand, is. Until I can no longer buy the toys I want or no longer feel the need to buy toys, I'll let Hasbro worry about their business and 3Ps worry about theirs.

I love the original design stuff like the Hercules set and FansProject stuff, but I'm not cool with the straight up KO's like CHMS.

The original designed figures are clearly based on existing TF characters, but Classics Jetfire is clearly a Macross Valk. Should I feel bad for BanDai? Should BanDai sue Hasbro?

Does anyone feel bad for Chevrolet when an engine component goes out and they go to AutoZone and get a third-party part to replace it? Chances are the part is heavily based on a Chevy design to the point it's interchangeable. I just don't see why this seems to be such an issue for some collectors.

I'd fall in Mkall's section 2. I got Botcon Springer and it was my Springer. I later picked up the Universe 2.0 Springer/Ratbat set. Neither one was what I wanted so I got Fansprojects Warbot Defender. Now I finally am satisfied. I gave Hasbro a chance, two even , and FP was the ne to give me what I want. But most of the 3rd Party stuff I have is entirely dependent on Hasbro products: City Commander, G3 Trailer, the Superion and Bruticus upgrades. Hasbro even had a Classics Rodimus reissue (something they haven't done for any other Classics figure) just in time for FPs Protector upgrade. If that's not an indicator of casual knowledge and begrudging acceptance, I don't know what is. Hasbro doesn't have to like it, they can want to scour them from the face of the Earth, but ultimately some of the 3rd party items boost their sales. ROTF Bruticus and Superion would still be on Target shelves if not for the Crossfire series.

I have Rager and Spray even though I got Botcon Huffer and 2010 Seaspray. I have Valkyrie for my Arcee, repainted Shadow Warriors for my Rumble and Frenzy, Stormbomb for Bombshell and plan to get the other two soon. But if Hasbro were to make any of those characters, I'd get the official release. Rumble & Frenzy are Hasbros own fault. They'd rather put out he bug that Sam pulled the head off of in ROTF than two characters people would actually buy.

What it comes down to is Hasbro brought it on themselves. It's the price of being the most successful brand in the world. I'll get what I want but I'll still prefer the real deal.

My point of view is if you're against original design 3rd Party products, I hope you're just as against Hasbro product that equally skirts the line like Kre-Os or any number of figures that borrow unlicensed alt modes or entire design concepts altogether. There are plenty of examples out there and I don't feel like listing a handful of them again...

I'm somewhat against KOs and other rip-off engineering, but when I watched TFsource sell KO MP Ramjet at Botcon last year like it was going out of style while Hasbro sat back and watched with their thumbs up their asses while not doing a damn thing about it, I quit giving a **** about telling others they're wrong for supporting that kind of ****. And then I went and bought a couple CHMS seekers that I was admiring from afar for some time. I figured if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...

Oh man...I would so purchase Morality from a Third Party manufacturer if it were possible.

Counterpunch wrote:Oh man...I would so purchase Morality from a Third Party manufacturer if it were possible.

Hopefully, two companies would tackle it so I could have some variety.

I have no problem with third parties making their own products. Straight KO's of official products irritate me when they are passed off as the real thing.

SJ21 wrote:I have no problem with third parties making their own products. Straight KO's of official products irritate me when they are passed off as the real thing.

That.

Being in group 2 is kind of my own stance - I don't feel the need to judge anyone else for taking a different view. I draw the line at those that commit fraud enabled by KO's so close to the real thing that nobody is left knowing for sure.

And Hastak really do have both sets of thumbs and most of an arm up their asses about it....and one reason why may very well be the bulk of the good stuff (FP, PE etc) tends to ADD to official product and create both buzz and real demand for it.

And let them off the hook about making stuff they have no profit motive for chasing, allowing them to give the world the gift of that piece of crap Camero in 40 different flavors......

Just my view.

Counterpunch wrote:Oh man...I would so purchase Morality from a Third Party manufacturer if it were possible.

Most likely it would homage Defensor.

I'd like to say that I am firmly in group 2. Realistically, I'd have to maybe say 2.5, though... I typically avoid straight knock-offs. And I consider a recoloured but otherwise unchanged mold to be a knock-off. But when KO Toys was having their, "Oh, crap, Hasbro noticed us!" sale, I had to take advantage of that to expand my Seeker ranks.

For the main six seekers, I have official Hasbro versions and wouldn't have it any other way. But with that sale, I added three purple generics, a set of rainmakers, a Sunstorm, and some random black and gold one. The quality on them is definitely lacking compared to the official ones, but I suppose they look good on a shelf.



As far as the morality goes... I see nothing wrong with third party products that fill gaps Hasbro hasn't handled themselves, as long as they are original designs (random seekers excepted it seems, but for example before Generations Thundercracker was announced, as much as I wanted such a figure it never even crossed my mind as an option to get a KO one). Even better is when they are a third party accessory to a hasbro product, such as the oft mentioned City Commander. It would be pretty useless without the base Ultra Magnus figure, so Hasbro still gets to play a part there.

But when companies make outright copies of official products, I feel they've crossed a line they shouldn't. (Or copies of unofficial prouducts! I have just as much problem with the knock off City Commanders out there!) And the people who buy them... I hate to sound potentially inflamatory, but the reasons they give if asked to explain why such a thing isn't wrong always sound like entitlement bullshit.

Mkall wrote:There's Group 2, who believe that so long as it's a different design, but is similar enough in character to an existing official transformer is awesome. Note that KOs are not supported in Group 2

I'm 75% this

Group 4 believes Hasbro and Takara are souless and evil, and that Third Parties and KO makers are the saviors to the Transformers fandom.

and 25% this.


Though I will say, never have I purchased a KO, nor do I plan to. I recently (just recently!) bought my first 3rd party product, Fansproject Protector. F**king love it. Turned a less than desirable figure (for me, anyway) into epic badass. Next up: Sidearm.

To me, it's all about supply and demand (i.e., that which keeps companies like Has/Tak in business). If the supply is not great enough to meet the demands, then I welcome the KO companies like CHMS creating knock offs to fill the market demand for the figures. I'd prefer Has/Tak take care of this themselves, but often they do not for whatever reason (even when the money is clearly there to be made).

That being said, I'm totally against the fraud that takes place by some after market sellers trying to pass off KO's as the real deal.

KO's are not legal, neither are many third party products and intellectual property is intellectual property, whether it is a straight knock off or a figure so similar to a licensed character that it could be taken to court (and yes, while some of the third party companies are careful about it, quite a few others are not ).

If the question is morality, then here is my stance:

It is legal to sell a rare legitimate figure for an extremely inflated price on the after market if that's what consumers are willing to pay - but it is immoral

It is legal to make toys very similar in design to the intellectual property of another company/copyright/trademark holder - but it is immoral

It is illegal to make a straight KO of a licensed product or a product that is not a KO but is so close to the design of a trademarked product or character design that it could be taken to court (and won by the copyright/trademark holder) - but it is not necessarily immoral (depending in your view) as long as the purchasers of said products are aware that what they are getting is not an officially licensed product.

I think there's only a couple of people here who really think KOs are perfectly moral to make.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the belief of some people that Hasbro and Takara owe them something and expect them to bend over backwards and give it to them.

HasTak owe you nothing. What's that? You gave them money and boosted their profits? Good on ya mate, that was your decision.

HasTak are in the business of making money, and they do that through their target audience, which most of this site isn't.

Seriously, get over the HasTak bashing, none of us know what they're thinking, but we do know who their target market is.

It's the KO companies that owe HasTak. As for HasTak products getting sold out due to "upgrades" (examples of which CC, Colossus etc), well, those products are already good as sold or in the case of CC (UM was a shelf warmer because everyone was after Skywarp)

So its a bit of a risk with the upgrades ( at least FP kept their QC fairly high)whether they sell or get stuck with a lemon.

What sucks the most is that KO makers attempted a fast one with the "Encore Metroplex Affair" a few years back. Now that is the lowest!

Again, if Tomy/Hasbro just releases the real thing, the KO dies in the vein. Besides, sometimes the official products are cheaper than the KOs. Upgrades on the other hand is in a different category as such the owners of the official stuff (in theory) actually buy them to enhance the former (CC,Colussus,IH and Ratchet heads and FP G3 trailer).

I'm not too sure how to react to actual re-makes of the "Not fill in the blank" series released by FP ,Maketoys and IGear, A kind of fine line though they aren't exactly using the copyrighted names, only the slightly fan familiar likenesses

I'm not totally against third party creations, in fact some pieces are really, really nice. However I have often wondered how they are able to get away with it, without making trademark/copyright infringements.

However what puzzles me most is why Has/Tak up until very recently seemed to just tolerate those 'high quality' HK KO's? Dinobots, combiners, G1's they're blood everywhere lately, they even come in 'authentic' G1 packaging FFS.

MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'm not totally against third party creations, in fact some pieces are really, really nice. However I have often wondered how they are able to get away with it, without making trademark/copyright infringements.

Yep, I've often wondered the same.

MightyMagnus78 wrote:However what puzzles me most is why Has/Tak up until very recently seemed to just tolerate those 'high quality' HK KO's? Dinobots, combiners, G1's they're blood everywhere lately, they even come in 'authentic' G1 packaging FFS.

My only guess would be that since Has/Tak either can't (due to not having the molds intact/in their possession) or won't (due to insufficient demand for it to be worth it), they just disregard it. The only difference to Has/Tak's bottom line when it comes to KO's is if it's a product being KO'd that they actually still produce. If it's something from 10-20 years ago that they no longer have the mold for or don't see profit in producing and the only ones selling them (and thus the only ones making any profit) are the KO retailers and ebay sellers, then it has no effect on Has/Tak's bottom line period. There is no money taken out of their pockets by KO companies making a reproduction Shockwave for example, since, as I recall, they aren't even allowed to remake that toy themselves, but there is profit to be made by the KO manufacturers/sellers as well as the scammers on ebay trying to pass them off as the real thing.

Legally though, IP is IP, and whether it's a total KO or just slightly different enough (looking at you FP etc.) to get around a lawsuit, then it's still immoral IMO. It's making money off of another company's property without paying any royalties or getting any permission, but the law does allow it if it's just different enough (though the law itself is not about morality most of the time, it's about legality, which are two very different things).

Still, I say to each his own. If you don't like KO's, don't buy them. For me, if I can buy a legit figure from an actual retailer (where Has/Tak actually sees some money out of the deal), then that's what I'll get. But if the only sellers of a figure are the individuals (read, NOT retailers) on ebay and the prices are absurd, then KO is where I go. Of course, I only did that twice, though even once is enough to make me a complete hypocrite if I try to say that no one should buy KO's.

Hercules sits with all my Classics figures as does my KO Henkei Wild Rider. I won't be selling them, and if Has/Tak ever do decide to make something comparable (including a second run on Wild Rider like they did with Henkei Rodimus), then I'm all over it. There is still something to be said for the quality (for the most part) of what Has/Tak make when compared to most KO's and third party toys.

None of the handful of engineers who originally deigned the Diaclone and Microman robot toys that became Transformers have become particularly wealthy from having done so; neither have the Marvel comic writers who came up with the original biographies.

If anyone "owes" anyone anything those guys should be at the head of the list.

Yet most of us don't have any idea who these people actually are in the first place.

Is that ethical? Is that moral?

How often do any of us think about the working conditions of the people who actually make our toys and what their lives are like, especially when we spend so much time complaining that prices are rising because these workers are finally beginning to get improved pay and working conditions?

Is that ethical? Is that moral?

I think there are much more pressing and interesting ethical questions deserving to be addressed concerning Western consumerism than this particular one, but they never seem to come up.