Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:19 pm**

There is something different between "reproduction KOs" and stuff made by iGear and Dr. Wu. One tries to fool the buyer into believing it's an official Transformers product. The other does not.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:32 pm**

Bear with my ignorance, but I do not know the consensus of this subject. It seems clear that Takara Tomy nor Hasbro is making an Encore Scorponok, so if there's to be a reasonably priced KO on the market, is it a bad thing?

I have some KO's in my personal collection; mainly because Hasbro and their retail store exclusives are always gone from shelves way to quick, at least in this one horse town. But I have a KO G1 Shockwave, which was $100, that is just as wonderful as the Shockwave I had as a kid, and I have a CHMS V2 Generations "Skywarp," which was $30 since Hasbro has yet to re-release the Skywarp Target exclusive. Is this frowned upon as well?

Lastly there's the third party thing. If a KO Scorponok is bad, then where do things like iGear's Seekers come in?

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:51 pm**

Optimus21577 wrote:For those that are against them, I'm sorry that your concern for the value of your collection is stopping you from enjoying these.

I agreed with a lot of what you said except his really struck me as something that I needed to comment on. I don't think any of us in this topic that are adamant against counterfeit Transformers products have made any statement about being concerned about what that does to the value of our figures. While the impact of counterfeit Transformers products on the brand as a whole does concern me, I have never collected because of the value of my collection. If I was truly concerned about the value of it, I would be adamant against reissues (which I am not against). I dropped down $5,000 between Black Zarak and Grand Maximus in 2011. I would be one of the first people in line to get an official reissue of either of those magnificent figures/sets though I would strongly oppose a counterfeit of either of those figures.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:03 pm**

TreyTable wrote:Bear with my ignorance, but I do not know the consensus of this subject. It seems clear that Takara Tomy nor Hasbro is making an Encore Scorponok, so if there's to be a reasonably priced KO on the market, is it a bad thing?

It's a bad thing because the intent of the people making the counterfeit Transformers is to deceive consumers. It is unfair to uninformed collectors that these types of products are out in the market who are looking for official products.

TreyTable wrote:I have some KO's in my personal collection; mainly because Hasbro and their retail store exclusives are always gone from shelves way to quick, at least in this one horse town.

You can buy Hasbro's figures online or at various comic book, toy, and Transformers conventions or through other fans on Seibertron.com. Lack of supply in your area doesn't justify the production of counterfeit products.

TreyTable wrote:But I have a KO G1 Shockwave, which was $100, that is just as wonderful as the Shockwave I had as a kid, and I have a CHMS V2 Generations "Skywarp," which was $30 since Hasbro has yet to re-release the Skywarp Target exclusive. Is this frowned upon as well?

Yes it is frowned upon as well. Hasbro would be run into the ground if they had to reissue every toy they made because collectors want to buy these items at cheaper prices than what they're going for because a collector missed it the first time around. Classics Skywarp can be found on eBay at http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=classics+skywarp&_sop=15 or you can buy the recent official reissue of him, along with Starscream and Thundercracker, at our site's advertisers such as BigBadToyStore.com or TFsource.com. Skywarp works out to about $43 if you buy him in that set. You could sell your original Classics Thundercracker and Starscream or sell the ones from this set if you don't need or want them.

TreyTable wrote:Lastly there's the third party thing. If a KO Scorponok is bad, then where do things like iGear's Seekers come in?

iGear's Seekers are unlicensed 3rd party products, which is considered a bad thing officially here on Seibertron.com. While some Transformers fansites rally behind item's like that, I chose to steer Seibertron.com away from associating with unlicensed products so that Hasbro knows where we stand on that issue and to keep us out of what some would consider a gray area.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:07 pm**

but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:14 pm**

craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

I disagree. I have a friend who is an avid fan, and was completely unaware of the KO flowing in the market. And if I was not the one noting it to him, he would have a lot o KOs in his collection while believing that they are the real deal.

So I think there is a great deal who are not aware of this issue.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:21 pm**

craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

These warnings are great for the beginners to the collecting hobby and those in the "just drooling over the pictures" phase of toy collecting like me.

Thanks,
Seibertron

PS Knockoffs can described best as counterfeit. Knockoff toys would use like using counterfeit money or buying counterfeit coins or baseball card or knockoff jerseys, shoes, or even handbags for the ladies. It is not for guys wanting a cheap Scorponok that knockoffs are bad for, it is a warning about guys buy a knockoff Scorponok to sell online for a massive corrupt profit. Not to mention the pain for Takara, Hasbro, etc.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:22 pm**

That was just in reference to something that someone on here had written me. they got under my skin..
Not towards you,(on several posts that was a concern many voiced however) it would apply to myself as well though if it was a factor, as I have one of the largest most deverse collections of TF merchandise on the eastern seaboard.
Third parties have their place, and I love them, and I also respect anybody elses stance on disapproving of them.
Note, Never had any interest in Black Zarak, nor the headmasters in general to be honest. "How did the black zarak come about?
I'm curious, I thought of picking up some of the new third party headmasters that are coming out.

Seibertron wrote:
Optimus21577 wrote:For those that are against them, I'm sorry that your concern for the value of your collection is stopping you from enjoying these.

I agreed with a lot of what you said except his really struck me as something that I needed to comment on. I don't think any of us in this topic that are adamant against counterfeit Transformers products have made any statement about being concerned about what that does to the value of our figures. While the impact of counterfeit Transformers products on the brand as a whole does concern me, I have never collected because of the value of my collection. If I was truly concerned about the value of it, I would be adamant against reissues (which I am not against). I dropped down $5,000 between Black Zarak and Grand Maximus in 2011. I would be one of the first people in line to get an official reissue of either of those magnificent figures/sets though I would strongly oppose a counterfeit of either of those figures.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:22 pm**

craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

500,000 unique visitors visit Seibertron.com on a monthly basis according to our Google Analytics traffic stats. Less than 1,000 of that number are regularly active on our forums. I do not expect the majority of those 500,000 people, most of whom I assume are casual fans, to have as much trivial knowledge as the die-hard fans.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:25 pm**

Seibertron wrote:
Omega-1 wrote:
Seibertron wrote:That's not a fair comparison. Cubic Zirconia is sold as Cubic Zirconia and it doesn't get sold in the same original packaging as actual diamonds. If the people making these KO products just wanted to bring replica Transformers products to market, there would be no need to release them in packaging that was as a near identical package to the original. If the counterfeit products were sold in packaging that was unique to those products, that would be one thing. But the fact that the counterfeit products are sold in replica packaging clearly shows the intention of these people which is to confuse and take advantage of uninformed collectors.

So, are you saying that you would be OK with KOs if they were in different packaging? I would be OK with that. But obviously, if the packaging were thrown away, a resell of the KO could still be mistaken for an authentic Transformer, just like a cz resell could be mistaken for a diamond if the seller were not honest or was unaware.

I wouldn't personally be OK with KOs if they were sold in different packaging. I'm sticking to my morals on this one. However, if the KOs were sold in non-identical packaging, it would make it seem less obvious that the counterfeit products are meant to deceive consumers.

Rated X wrote:Holy freakin s**t !!!! What did I start ???

A good healthy discussion on a message board. It's nice to see people so staunchly defending their views. Thank you.

Rated X wrote:I just wish all those who buy KO windshield wipers and printer cartridges would let this silly argument go. Everyone deserves a little G1 goodness and sometimes an affordable option is good for those who have other expenses. Nearly all my G1 stuff is original, but a quality KO can sometimes fill a void for an average fan.

Except KO windshield wipers and printer cartridges don't come in identical packaging and even the items themselves are not identical with brand name logos on them (at least not to my knowledge). The problem with the counterfeit Transformers toys is that it is very obvious that their intention is to deceive consumers and make a lot of money off this deception which is really unfortunate.

One thing I will never defend is someone who lies about a KO being original. I'm honest about any KO I own. (Most being CHMS issues) But I also see KO's as a great resource for someone who wants to decorate their man cave with a little 80's nostalgia. I'm not talking about high end collectors like us. I'm talking about 30 something guys with destructive kids, pets, multiple expenses, and various other reasons not to spend large amounts of money to get a piece of their youth back. KO's give them that option. And the more people who have a chance to own a G1 figure in some form, the longer the G1 legacy will last. I also like KO's of Transformers that are so rare the originals are not for sale on the market. The Dino cassettes are so rare, who wouldn't buy them as KO's ? Didn't you buy them too ? The same could be said of Black Zarak. I understand your frustration with KO's from a collecting aspect. But if you take that too seriously it will take away from the fun aspect of owning Transformers or "Transformable Robots" as you might call some pieces in my collection. Kind of like people who buy vintage race cars and never drive them because they are so rare. I cant be like that. I have to enjoy my hobby. I display them. I enjoy them while drinking a cold one. And if one rare TF that is out of my reach gets KOed, Ill buy it. But I will tell you it's a KO. I prefer having my G1 figures original. The only G1 KO's I own are LioKaiser, Dino Cassettes, mini versions of Devastator and Ruination, and a KO Double Dealer I found in an Filipino market for 6 bucks. The KO's I am such a big advocate for are the classics KO's (the stuff that's way too new to be so damn expensive) I also love when we get good quality KO classics repaints that Hasbro will never make like the Rainmakers, Sunstorm, Paradon Medic, Deep Cover, Blue Diaclone Prime, Black Death Starscream, ghost Skywarp and Thundercracker, and the crystal coneheads. KO or not, you must admit CHMS really did make some cool ideas come to life. And they did it with us collectors in mind instead of the kids for once.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:26 pm**

KUMA-NIN Maximus wrote:
craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

I disagree. I have a friend who is an avid fan, and was completely unaware of the KO flowing in the market. And if I was not the one noting it to him, he would have a lot o KOs in his collection while believing that they are the real deal.

So I think there is a great deal who are not aware of this issue.

I'm in the same boat. One of my best buds here in Chicago is what I would call a casual Transformers collector. He's a die-hard Masters of the Universe collector like I am a die-hard Transformers collector and a casual Masters of the Universe collector. He would have no idea about all of the counterfeit Transformers products out there.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:32 pm**

This is true, there's a sucker born every minute. Sorry for the pun, Though I have no interest in letting their ignorance of these things stop me from enjoying my hobby.
But as I said before, one night every week I police ebay and I report, bid or buy it now on at least 30 auctions. I used to just report them, but ebay wasn't doing anything about them.
So I found it more effective to just buy them and then throw the seller under the bus. lol.
I have no mercy for liars!
Ohh, the ol ladies watching Grimm without me,take it easy everybody.

Seibertron wrote:
craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

500,000 unique visitors visit Seibertron.com on a monthly basis according to our Google Analytics traffic stats. Less than 1,000 of that number are regularly active on our forums. I do not expect the majority of those 500,000 people, most of whom I assume are casual fans, to have as much trivial knowledge as the die-hard fans.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:00 pm**

craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

Bringing back my earlier point ... a collector may have friends or family wanting to get them a present. A MISB G1 figure for $50? They'll love that! BUY IT NOW!

Imagine how stoked the receiver would be ... only to realise it's a KO, and how bad the giver would feel.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:07 pm**

fair points, I'll admit. didn't give the gift-giving aspect a thought, since anyone who would get me a TF as a gift would probably consult me on what to get. which itself is a double-edged sword.

at least those people who've seen the news item on the front page will know...and knowing is half the battle.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:47 pm**

Seibertron wrote:
craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

500,000 unique visitors visit Seibertron.com on a monthly basis according to our Google Analytics traffic stats. Less than 1,000 of that number are regularly active on our forums. I do not expect the majority of those 500,000 people, most of whom I assume are casual fans, to have as much trivial knowledge as the die-hard fans.

But not all of those 500k are hunting for a G1 Scorponok, or are in some way actively looking for some vintage or reissue G1 toy. I do not mean to suggest that, because some people are able to tell the difference between legitimate releases and knockoffs that the KO market is acceptable, but merely to point out that your response does not exactly address craggy's point.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:57 pm**

That Bot wrote:
Seibertron wrote:
craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

500,000 unique visitors visit Seibertron.com on a monthly basis according to our Google Analytics traffic stats. Less than 1,000 of that number are regularly active on our forums. I do not expect the majority of those 500,000 people, most of whom I assume are casual fans, to have as much trivial knowledge as the die-hard fans.

But not all of those 500k are hunting for a G1 Scorponok, or are in some way actively looking for some vintage or reissue G1 toy. I do not mean to suggest that, because some people are able to tell the difference between legitimate releases and knockoffs that the KO market is acceptable, but merely to point out that your response does not exactly address craggy's point.

nope. All casual fans including people who're clicking links in search engines for info about the Michael Bay films and are otherwise uninterested in Transfomers, all of them want G1 Scorponok. And why wouldn't they? he's awesome!

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:55 pm**

I understand that there are people that only want originals or that there are people that might be confused about whether something is an unofficial replica or authentic Transformer, but there are also a lot of people that want these unofficial replica Transformers that may never be reproduced by Hasbro or Takara Tomy.

I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:05 pm**

Omega-1 wrote:I understand that there are people that only want originals or that there are people that might be confused about whether something is an unofficial replica or authentic Transformer, but there are also a lot of people that want these unofficial replica Transformers that may never be reproduced by Hasbro or Takara Tomy.

I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

Well that pretty well sums up how majorities treat minorities.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:32 pm**

craggy wrote:
That Bot wrote:
Seibertron wrote:
craggy wrote:but are there a lot of people out there who aren't pretty reasonably informed who're hunting for a G1 Scorponok? I kinda doubt it.

500,000 unique visitors visit Seibertron.com on a monthly basis according to our Google Analytics traffic stats. Less than 1,000 of that number are regularly active on our forums. I do not expect the majority of those 500,000 people, most of whom I assume are casual fans, to have as much trivial knowledge as the die-hard fans.

But not all of those 500k are hunting for a G1 Scorponok, or are in some way actively looking for some vintage or reissue G1 toy. I do not mean to suggest that, because some people are able to tell the difference between legitimate releases and knockoffs that the KO market is acceptable, but merely to point out that your response does not exactly address craggy's point.

nope. All casual fans including people who're clicking links in search engines for info about the Michael Bay films and are otherwise uninterested in Transfomers, all of them want G1 Scorponok. And why wouldn't they? he's awesome!

You guys missed my point. Even if 1% of the people that visit Seibertron.com are looking for a Scorponok, that's about 5 times the number of active forum participants. How many of those people saw the news this weekend? It's not fair to expect any of them to be on top of the latest counterfeit news when they go to make their purchase.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:38 pm**

Omega-1 wrote:I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

I'm sure you've got the stats flipped. Considering the number of casual Transformers fans out there, I'm certain that the number of people buying the counterfeit Transformers far outweigh the fans that are intentionally buying those items. Especially when you look at the numbers for Seibertron.com and even when you look at how few "die-hards" attend BotCon compared to the number of fans that are out there. The counterfeit Transformers aren't put in identical packaging just to make fans feel good. It's done so it confuses the market and innocent collectors or casual fans end up buying them because they think it's the real thing. It's a deceptive practice. All of you who don't see the bigger picture are fooling yourselves or you've been fooled by this form of marketing and methods that the counterfeit companies utilize. Or you just don't care. Ignorance is bliss, which seems to be the acceptable response from those in favor of counterfeits regarding consumers unknowingly being fooled by these deceptive practices.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:44 pm**

njb902 wrote:
Omega-1 wrote:I understand that there are people that only want originals or that there are people that might be confused about whether something is an unofficial replica or authentic Transformer, but there are also a lot of people that want these unofficial replica Transformers that may never be reproduced by Hasbro or Takara Tomy.

I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

Well that pretty well sums up how majorities treat minorities.

You are missing the entire point. The people who collect KOs acknowledge that swindling people is wrong and want to help educate people from being swindled. The side that wants KOs off the market refuse to acknowledge there are lot of people out there that want KOs and that taking them off the market would screw these people over. Either that or they don't care that these people get screwed over.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:56 pm**

Seibertron wrote:I'm sure you've got the stats flipped. Considering the number of casual Transformers fans out there, I'm certain that the number of people buying the counterfeit Transformers far outweigh the fans that are intentionally buying those items. Especially when you look at the numbers for Seibertron.com and even when you look at how few "die-hards" attend BotCon compared to the number of fans that are out there. The counterfeit Transformers aren't put in identical packaging just to make fans feel good. It's done so it confuses the market and innocent collectors or casual fans end up buying them because they think it's the real thing. It's a deceptive practice. All of you who don't see the bigger picture are fooling yourselves or you've been fooled by this form of marketing and methods that the counterfeit companies utilize. Or you just don't care. Ignorance is bliss, which seems to be the acceptable response from those in favor of counterfeits regarding consumers unknowingly being fooled by these deceptive practices.

We can argue all day about numbers that can't be proven but lets not. I've read a lot of comments on sites that sell KOs and I've yet to read one that seems like the buyer was confused about whether they were getting a KO. If you have proof that a lot of people are being fooled by these KOs then I would be more willing to listen. Otherwise, it's all just conjecture right now.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:20 pm**

Omega-1 wrote:
njb902 wrote:
Omega-1 wrote:I understand that there are people that only want originals or that there are people that might be confused about whether something is an unofficial replica or authentic Transformer, but there are also a lot of people that want these unofficial replica Transformers that may never be reproduced by Hasbro or Takara Tomy.

I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

Well that pretty well sums up how majorities treat minorities.

You are missing the entire point. The people who collect KOs acknowledge that swindling people is wrong and want to help educate people from being swindled. The side that wants KOs off the market refuse to acknowledge there are lot of people out there that want KOs and that taking them off the market would screw these people over. Either that or they don't care that these people get screwed over.

You can talk all you want about "understanding" that it sucks for people to get screwed over, but in the end as long as you get yours it's okay.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:24 pm**

Sad to say there are going to be people that get scammed, it doesn't matter what I or anyone here thinks or feels about the subject. We only have the ability to control ourselves. Helping to make it common knowledge though is a great way to lesson that number though. Though, I'm sorry, but a large number of the visitors to this site, are not collectors. And the ones that are should have enough common sense to know a MISB Scorponok is not $120. I don't know cars, but im gonna guess that I cant get a 65 chevy mint for $1000, lol.
I have sold hundreds if not thousands of the G1 Repros and never once ran across a single customer that had mistaken them for vintage. (I have had people ask, but never turn around and go, dohh, my bad I thought I paid $65 for a mint Sunstreaker that was 30 years old. I mean, seriously??
And I only do it as a hobby, I work full time, so what are the numbers of sales for the places that sell them full time, that advertise and all that good stuff?
We can guess all night, anybody interested in doing a poll and asking people this question? It has to have at least 1 to 5 thousand people participating to really have any merit though. Just a thought.

Seibertron wrote:
Omega-1 wrote:I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

I'm sure you've got the stats flipped. Considering the number of casual Transformers fans out there, I'm certain that the number of people buying the counterfeit Transformers far outweigh the fans that are intentionally buying those items. Especially when you look at the numbers for Seibertron.com and even when you look at how few "die-hards" attend BotCon compared to the number of fans that are out there. The counterfeit Transformers aren't put in identical packaging just to make fans feel good. It's done so it confuses the market and innocent collectors or casual fans end up buying them because they think it's the real thing. It's a deceptive practice. All of you who don't see the bigger picture are fooling yourselves or you've been fooled by this form of marketing and methods that the counterfeit companies utilize. Or you just don't care. Ignorance is bliss, which seems to be the acceptable response from those in favor of counterfeits regarding consumers unknowingly being fooled by these deceptive practices.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:27 pm**

Omega-1 wrote:You are missing the entire point. The people who collect KOs acknowledge that swindling people is wrong and want to help educate people from being swindled. The side that wants KOs off the market refuse to acknowledge there are lot of people out there that want KOs and that taking them off the market would screw these people over. Either that or they don't care that these people get screwed over.

An inability to buy counterfeit products is not "getting screwed over" as you put it. You can buy the originals like those of us who worked very hard to obtain them. Getting screwed over when it comes to collectibles is flat out being denied the opportunity to ever buy them. Lack of willingness to pay for the prices that original/official figures go for does not equal getting screwed over if counterfeit products didn't or ceased to exist.

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