The Energon Pub

What flaw stops you from buying a 3rd party product?

Is it the aesthetics? The scale? Paint apps or lack thereof? Price relative to product? Company? A missing function?

I've been seeing folks use the phrase, i'm sure I have in the past as well but In some cases I get confused.

For example, Unique Toys' Maniaking (Galvatron) being shorter than Toy World's Hegemon (Megatron). In my opinion, The difference in height is slight and what's more, Maniaking is a much better figure. In that example, I'm wondering if the deal breaker for some is
A. Because Hegemon came out first and they already have it and it has become the frame of reference for all future purchases?
B. Galvatron was more powerful and an upgraded form of Megatron in G1 and should be larger?

I guess in that case The opinion will ultimately be up to the collector but as I type this I wonder why is it that the Hegemon deal is not Broken by Maniaking?

For me, each figure goes through quite a bit of criteria and examination before the deal is ultimately broken, Are the colors right? does the alt mode look good? Is the transformation interesting? Is the Figure close enough to a scale I like?

For Example, Battle of the Brainstorms.
I got both FP's Smart Robin and TW's Brainwave in the same POL from BBTS, Smart Robin blew Brainwave out of the sky in so many ways, Transformation was complex and interesting, Colors were perfect, Alt mode was beautiful and he looks good with FP Code and PE Warden. Brainwave was oddly colored and bulky in robot mode, the alt mode was ugly and he looks awful with Warden (though fine with TW's Hardbone as they are from the same line), Transformation was kind of dull and in some places i was dissapointed that parts were not designed to tab together (wings in robot mode).

Because of that criteria, Brainwave was a broken deal and ultimately, any future TW Headmasters will likely be as well.

So what do you guys think? What breaks the deal for you? Is it different from figure to figure? Kit to kit?

I'll start off by saying that there doesn't have to be any systematic approach to evaluating a figure for a fan to determine it is or is not for them. Just the opposite - I would say that the process is often irrational. The "deal breaker" might be completely different for every figure a given fan decides to pass on.

For ManiaKing, my reasons for passing revolved around a combination of:

-Aesthetics: cannon coloration, elongated crest, monkey arms
-Articulation: wrist swivel, monkey arms
-Price: given my issues with aesthetics & articulation, $115 seems too high - that's the deal breaker.

There are plenty of things ManiaKing got right. The colors/paint apps are striking. From the video reviews, the alt mode, transformation, and size are all great (I explain him being slightly shorter than Hegemon, by noting that Unicron upgraded and streamlined a robot that was millions of years old... the sleek look is not necessarily indicative of less power). But all of those things can become negatives I notice in other figures.

If for this guy dips below $100, I'll strongly consider buying him. For $80-$90, he's insta-bought.

I don't see the point in buying 3rd party TF characters toys that Hastak has already oversaturated the market with.

If HasTak has only made one or two of a TF character toy & it was lacking. Then I have no problem buying a 3rd party toy of it.

Currently I think its smarter to buy the bigger 3rd party TF toys as the deals seem better.

I prefer to buy the bigger guys.

Mania King is a place holder for me. when something better & bigger gets made. I'll try to resell it & break even.

Price should factor in & be measured towards what your getting. if the math doesn't add up in my favor,then I don't get it.

I can overlook colors being shades off or wrong colors when the sculpt,size & articulation are high.

When a HasTak toy is already super exspensive. then the add on kit is more exspensive that the HasTak toy. this is a turn off. The upcoming YOTH Omega Supreme upgrade kit is a example of this.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:I don't see the point in buying 3rd party TF characters toys that Hastak has already oversaturated the market with.

If HasTak has only made one or two of a TF character toy & it was lacking. Then I have no problem buying a 3rd party toy of it.

Currently I think its smarter to buy the bigger 3rd party TF toys as the deals seem better.

I prefer to buy the bigger guys.

Mania King is a place holder for me. when something better & bigger gets made. I'll try to resell it & break even.

Price should factor in & be measured towards what your getting. if the math doesn't add up in my favor,then I don't get it.

I can overlook colors being shades off or wrong colors when the sculpt,size & articulation are high.

When a HasTak toy is already super exspensive. then the add on kit is more exspensive that the HasTak toy. this is a turn off. The upcoming YOTH Omega Supreme upgrade kit is a example of this.

Where is the maketoys omega supreme being sold to confirm the price ? Please provide a link.

For me, my reasons for not seeing Hegemon and Maniaking belong together was as you described. I don't understand how a more powerful version of a character would be smaller. Plus there is not an awful lot wrong with United Megatron, save the kibble which I detach in robot mode. The Hasbro figure is rather nice. As for Maniaking, I haven't met many people who like Universe Galvatron, who is also a completely different size class - so it's even more difficult to see the progression from one to the other. Maniaking is a more clear-cut case to buy.

I feel logic dictates most of my decisions when collecting, I guess I ask myself a few key questions.

1) Is it the right scale with the rest of my collection?
2) Is the aesthetic right?
3) Is there an existing HasTak toy or stand-in?
4) If so, is the 3rd party sufficiently better than the HasTaK offering, given the price differential?

So I discounted Hegemon on questions 1, 3 and 4.
I discounted Planet X Omega supreme based on questions 2 and 4 because I felt that YOTS Omega was good enough, and slightly more on the money in terms of overall look.
I bought Toyworld Hardhead because of questions 1, 2 and 4. Because Universe Hardhead is quite pricey, especially with the Headrobots kit, therefore the difference in price was negligible. And in Hardhead's case, big is ok.
But not for Toyworld Brainstorm, because of question 1. That's why FansProject got my money in that instance.

Sorry for the boring post

It's a case-by-case basis for me and changes all the damned time. Usually it boils down to:

1) Do I have a version of the character already?
2) Am I happy with what i have?
3) Do I actually care enough about the character in question to spend the dough on him?
4) Am I still thinking about it a month or two after I see pics?

THis methodology is why I never bought Steel Core, despite all the rave reviews he always gets. Yes, he's amazing (I'll just assume he is). But I just don't care about the character. And this is important since my primary drive in all this is nostalgia. It's also why I'm passing on most of the Headmasters. They all look great but other than Squeezeplay, I haven't any connection to the Headmasters whatsoever. Although getting that Fort Max is mighty tempting.

I use to buy everything that looks cool and fits into classics that we don't already have good official version of.
I've since become a lot more picky since there are like 2-3 third party offerings that does the same thing. Also I would replace any third party items I have for if an official version of the character comes out (providing I like it and it fits in with the collection)

For me, decision order is;

Do I think it is cool?
Do I think it is worth the asking price?
Does it fit with my collection?
Does it fill a gap, or replace a weaker representation of a character?

As far as the specific question of ManiaKing, I have not yet purchased him.

I think it is pretty cool. Not perfect, for a lot of the aesthetic reasons everyone rehashes, but not as bad as the bashers make it sound.

Do I think it is worth the asking price? Almost. It IS too pricey, but there is no other decent Galvatron on the market, and I don't know if we will see one any time soon.

Does it fit? Yea.

Fill a gap? Yea. I like the Classics Galvy tank mode, but the bot mode is crap IMO. It is one of the few T-Formers I display ONLY in alt mode.

Three yeses on the criteria, but a bit pricey.
So the "deal breaker" in this case, is cost.

If there wasn't other stuff coming out I want more, I might have caved on the price. But there is, so I haven't.

So that is my general, very subjective, criteria.

Despite my occasional bluster, I usually come to a decision within minutes after seeing the first full image of the figure. There have been a couple exceptions where I'll legitimately flip-flop on, such as Toy World's Optimus Prime, but for the most part once I decide I like/hate it, subsequent images only further justify my beliefs.

There's not much else I can say that others haven't. I'll typically favour a Hasbro release over that of a 3rd Party's. I'll be much more lenient if the cost is under $80, but anything over that I start nitpicking more.

For me, it's more about why I want a figure than anything being a deal breaker. Do I have the character (or is Has/Tak coming out with it in the future)? Do I want the character?

I'm more often an impulse buyer and will look at something and, like Mkall, decide almost immediately if I will pursue based on the above criteria. It is extremely rare that I will buy something that Has/Tak has already put out. For example, if Generations Springer had come out before Defender, I likely would have never gotten Defender.

(The only exception, thusfar, has been ManiaKing as I actually like the Generations deluxe. It was the cannon mode that eventually sold me.)

Realistically, there is only one deal breaker: price/value. For example, I will not end up getting Genesis any time soon because of its current price. I love the toy, and would like to have him. (Really badly, in fact.) But the one-time purchase price is too high. Admittedly this is a bit hypocritical as I just dropped almost twice that on my last POL shipment. But, I also have to say that that shipment came with 12 distinct figures and one add-on kit. That's where the value comes in. The YotS Omega kit will likely fall into this category too. I wouldn't mind getting it, but I don't want to pay the price. The IDW Swerve/other-guy-I'm-blanking-on-the-name two pack will also probably be in this category.

Other than that, my aesthetic tastes don't really factor in a deal breaker for me. To me, a deal breaker is something that disqualifies a product/character that I would normally get. If I don't like the aesthetics and never had an interest, then there was never a deal to be had that would be broken making it a "deal breaker."

Does that make sense?

I must agree with others that there isn't really a single "deal breaker" formula.

In my case, I can't say I'd ever really use the term "deal breaker," as that says to me that every figure has an implied deal in place up front, and if a specific figure or company then does something I don't like, the deal's off! I'm rather the opposite. No figure, third-party of Has/Tak, has a guaranteed place in my collection. It is only if they fit certain criteria that I would then want to purchase a figure. So for me, I have deal-maker criteria.

-Does a figure look good?

-Is it a figure that I want, and that will fit in with my collection?

-If it is a third-party figure, is there already (or known to soon be) an acceptable official option?

-Is the figure reasonably priced for what it is? (The scale of what is "reasonable" is obviously different for third party items, but there is still an upper limit.)

-Do I have room for it in my budget?

If all of the above have a yes, then congratulations, toy. We have a deal. Otherwise, I can hardly call it a deal breaker, as there was no deal yet in the first place.

The only minor exception is if a company does something to really piss me off, I might think harder about buying their products. (For example, if a third party company that until now had only made respectable, original products suddenly started producing retooled knock-offs of the RTS Laser Optimus Prime mold.) Then, even if I loved stuff this company did in the past, I might think harder about buying from them again. But in that case, I feel it is they who broke an (admittedly one-sided) deal about what sort of company they were.

(And even then, if they made something that was original, fit my above criteria, and was really irresistible, I'd probably find my resolve weakening...)

The Deal Breakers...

Favorite character,Most want to see them get done right. If HasTak keeps failing,Then some turn to 3rd parties.

How much longer can I wait for the HasTak new age toy version?

Is HasTak is Incapable or not of creating certain new age TF toys like some fans want.

Price for what your getting.

One thing I see a lot of folks list as a criteria, that I could not care less about, is "is there a Hasbro release" or something like that.

For me, it is about getting the best representation of the character, regardless of if there is an official release or not.

As an example, I would HAPPILY replace my Trailbreaker and Hoist with a 3P option. I'm pretty disappointed with the official characters. They are OK, and the upgrade kit will help, but I find them lackluster.

Agamemnon wrote:For example, if Generations Springer had come out before Defender, I likely would have never gotten Defender.

I agree with this statement, BUT, I actually prefer Defender.
Sounds strange, right? It is because Generations Springer is a really good figure, so the cost difference to BUY Defender vs Gen Springer is too high.
Both are good, IMO Defender is better, but NOT for the difference in price.

Agamemnon wrote:Realistically, there is only one deal breaker: price/value. For example, I will not end up getting Genesis any time soon because of its current price. I love the toy, and would like to have him. (Really badly, in fact.) But the one-time purchase price is too high.

This is another really good point. Actually, it IS the previous point.

I'm not as in love with the Genesis figure, but I would like to have it as it is a pretty decent Omega. It is "neo" enough to fit a classics collection, but geewunny enough to meet my tastes. But the asking price isn't worth it for what the figure is. At least not to me. If it was cheaper, or more geewunny, or just not so monkey armed, I'd probably be in.

Every transaction is a cost benefit analysis. I plunked down twelve bucks for IDW Bumblebee, even though I only kind-of like it, because it is just $12, and it is a new mold I wanted to check out. I'll plunk down big dollars for MMC's Predaking, because I think it is freaking awesome! I'll save $12 on Armada Satrscream, because I don't like the figure. I saved $300+ on Giant because it wasn't my taste either.

I'll chime in with the same general thought across the board that there is no one deal breaker criteria for all 3rd party products, though I will say for me that price is the central most issue of any purchase decision as my interest in TFs is always waning, so putting a lot of money into a given figure is out of the question unless it strikes me as unavoidable... which few things do any more.

Mania King for example does absolutely nothing for me, as I don't like Galvatron as a character, concept, or even as a design. If they had gone the IDW route and given him huge ass shoulder pauldrons then I might have considered it if the price was much lower.

For the Smart Robin vs. Brainwave debate I actually prefer the design of the TW figure over FPs version, but not enough to justify the price, and without Code I see no reason to pursue the rest of the FP headmasters... well that and FP has burned me far too often to trust them ever again.

Price relative to Product. Definitely.

that takes into account all other factors. If most of these third party toys were coming out at Hasbro prices, I'd give a lot more the benefit of the doubt, and be able to afford a lot more of the combiners. Now I hope I don't come across as being overly cheap here. Don't get me wrong, some of the official TF toys I get I am disappointed with in general, because of lack of paint apps, or scarily fragile bits or fat stumpy stupid looking T-Rex tails (not naming any names there though ).

But 3rd party toys are usually much more expensive for similarly sized toys. Sometimes it's clear just from looking at them why. I'd probably dispute anyone saying that the major 3rd party companies make crap. For the most part they seem to be better detailed, both in the mold itself as well as paint apps in many cases. At least the number of colour apps tends to be on par with Hasbro, and the colours themselves usually seem a lot nicer, more in line with Takara bots. Of course I can't talk about dozens of different products from a large number of different manufacturers without some of these generalisations having very obvious exceptions present, but of the ones I've bought, I generally find QC to be ok. This might be because I tend to wait for reviews or skip things that look particularly flimsy.

Accessories and add-ons vary in price dramatically. Honestly, I don't usually see why. Unless it's a trailer/armour set or something, they'll have to be some damn nice guns for me to drop more than $15-20 on them. New heads, or add-ons that significantly change the character (say something along the lines of the G2 MP Sideswipe extras, or Maiden Japan's Junkion kits) certainly can appeal to me more, but again, I try to consider the quality of the product (and the seller). I've got Headrobots Bludgeon head and swords, the MechIdeas Megatron and Shockwave guns (and Longblast kit ) and a bunch of Dr Wu Skybreakers. Oh and the Starscream Corination kit for the Classics mold. They're all pretty good, but not major expenditure. Minor tweaks that bring the end price of the figure up to that of a Japanese import, I don't mind that all that much.

Full figures are of course the most expensive, and whilst I have a few, the price of a lot of them has put me off. FP struck a good balance with quality of the figure vs price. Protector was the first I got off of them, whilst still technically an add-on, there's as much in it as there would be a full figure, and most of us probably have at least one or two Classics Rodimii kicking about looking terrible with their wee tiny heads. To get a proper sized Rodimus Prime with his space winnebago mode and an improved version of his 80s Battle Station, especially for me as a TFTM collector, made it very worthwhile. Likewise, their Insecticons came with so much weird ninja playability, that I had to have them, and those were only just hitting that "little bit expensive" price point. Pre-ordering the recolour Bruticus set with the Asia exclusive Energon combiner to go with them on the other hand...yeah, I felt the pinch on that a little, but the end result was worth it for me, and I was very glad to finally have a version of that combiner I'd seen so many gushing over for so long.

Lately I feel some companies have started charging too much though. I've actually always felt Perfect Effect's stuff has been too expensive for the size of it, but I will admit that their Reflector set did have a lot going for it. Just hope my eyesight doesn't get any poorer or I may not be able to find it. Their Warden is certainly a much heftier product for the price they're asking, and has a great bot mode. Shame the alt mode is a brick of poop. I want to get it because I'm a huge fan of the Fort Max IDW design it's based on, but with no big Max to make use of it's head mode I feel a bit like I'd be paying $150 for the best Action Master out there.

The combiner craze is also something that's both saved me money, and disappointed me. I'd love some more good combiners. Buying them piece by piece over a period of a few months is great too. NOT showing us the combined form until after most people would have to at least bought the first few is bloody atrocious and not something I will commit to. Some of them have turned out really great, and I'd maybe have liked to have gotten them, but even seeing the first few toys, there's still usually 60% of the figure that could turn out to be balls. I'd rather not gamble my $300-$500 thankyou.

Agamemnon wrote:Realistically, there is only one deal breaker: price/value.

That's basically it, right there.

Yotsuyasan wrote:I have deal-maker criteria.

I really like that!

rpetras wrote:I'm not as in love with the Genesis figure, but I would like to have it as it is a pretty decent Omega. It is "neo" enough to fit a classics collection, but geewunny enough to meet my tastes. But the asking price isn't worth it for what the figure is. At least not to me. If it was cheaper, or more geewunny, or just not so monkey armed, I'd probably be in.

I dunno. At the point you're paying $500 for Hercules, ~$440 for Feral Rex, and $380 for Menasor... $360 for Genesis doesn't seem awful.

megatronus wrote:

rpetras wrote:I'm not as in love with the Genesis figure, but I would like to have it as it is a pretty decent Omega. It is "neo" enough to fit a classics collection, but geewunny enough to meet my tastes. But the asking price isn't worth it for what the figure is. At least not to me. If it was cheaper, or more geewunny, or just not so monkey armed, I'd probably be in.

I dunno. At the point you're paying $500 for Hercules, ~$440 for Feral Rex, and $380 for Menasor... $360 for Genesis doesn't seem awful.

Oh, quite correct. That's why I halfheartedly called myself a hypocrite. The difference is that Herc cost me $600 over the course of, what, eight months? Being able to distribute cost like that is highly appealing to me.

Agamemnon wrote:

megatronus wrote:

rpetras wrote:I'm not as in love with the Genesis figure, but I would like to have it as it is a pretty decent Omega. It is "neo" enough to fit a classics collection, but geewunny enough to meet my tastes. But the asking price isn't worth it for what the figure is. At least not to me. If it was cheaper, or more geewunny, or just not so monkey armed, I'd probably be in.

I dunno. At the point you're paying $500 for Hercules, ~$440 for Feral Rex, and $380 for Menasor... $360 for Genesis doesn't seem awful.

Oh, quite correct. That's why I halfheartedly called myself a hypocrite. The difference is that Herc cost me $600 over the course of, what, eight months? Being able to distribute cost like that is highly appealing to me.

You're right, payment plans are definitely an enabler

My main concern with buying a 3rd party product, whether it be some accessory for an already-produced HasTak figure (such as Protector for Rodimus) or an entirely new figure/group of figures, is whether the product is completely applicable. For example, I really like the FP Protector concept for Rodimus, but I don't have it because it would be displayed in robot mode, and I can only use half of what comes in the set. Yes, i know the trailer parts can be used for the weapons platform, but I didn't like that even back in G1, because Rodimus never used anything like that, to my knowledge. Warden, on the other hand, can be used entirely in all modes. Personally, he will be an accessory to my G1 Fort Max, with the head, gun and tracks all attached to the big guy. I never got into the iDW books, so I have no connection to his design. As for the combiners, I agree with Agamemnon, being able to buy the parts and pieces over time is much more feasible than picking up the entire thing all at once. However, I do not own any 3P combiners. I was going to start buying them this year, but HasTak has impressed me with their MP line so far, so I want to wait and see how they handle combiners, if they ever will. It would be great to see 6 MP-sized Constructicons be able to combine into a near-Fort Max-sized MP Devastator.

Rodimus Prime wrote:It would be great to see 6 MP-sized Constructicons be able to combine into a near-Fort Max-sized MP Devastator.

Devastator is my sincerest hope for the MP line. It's not entirely realistic, and may be somewhat far-fetched, but it's also not entirely implausible.

megatronus wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:It would be great to see 6 MP-sized Constructicons be able to combine into a near-Fort Max-sized MP Devastator.

Devastator is my sincerest hope for the MP line. It's not entirely realistic, and may be somewhat far-fetched, but it's also not entirely implausible.

I don't think it's implausible at all. Considering that a lot of the MPs from earlier are basically enlarged versions of their G1 molds, with some detail tweaking thrown in, I doubt it would be a big problem for the designers to take the G1 Constructicon molds and enlarge them. The transformations would basically be the same, and then we would just have to connect all the pieces together. The later combiners are different, so there might be more issues with them, but Devastator is unique in the design of both the individual parts and the combined figure.

Personally for me it just has to look mint i mean really awesome , i don't much care for transformation or alt mode , that's not why i'm buying it's all about the robot mode for me.

Some times it takes me a while to realize the robot doesn't look as good as i thought so i tend to wait it out a bit now , example UT ManiaKing liked it at first now i have no interest .. well maybe for £40 no more

On the other hand there's Warbotron Blast-Off who i can't stop looking at i feel like a right pervert it's just a beautiful robot great scale no kibble just perfect imo and the rest of the team look just as good .

Price is only a factor if it's a small figure and they want stupid money FP Stunticons were £50 a piece and that is as high as i would pay for that scale and only because it made a bigger figure .

Scale i'm not bothered about when it comes to sizing up against other faction members , i just want a good sized figure like FP Headmasters, TFC , MMC Preds and Warbotron after seeing the Hegemon comparison .

Rodimus Prime wrote:

megatronus wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:It would be great to see 6 MP-sized Constructicons be able to combine into a near-Fort Max-sized MP Devastator.

Devastator is my sincerest hope for the MP line. It's not entirely realistic, and may be somewhat far-fetched, but it's also not entirely implausible.

I don't think it's implausible at all. Considering that a lot of the MPs from earlier are basically enlarged versions of their G1 molds, with some detail tweaking thrown in, I doubt it would be a big problem for the designers to take the G1 Constructicon molds and enlarge them. The transformations would basically be the same, and then we would just have to connect all the pieces together. The later combiners are different, so there might be more issues with them, but Devastator is unique in the design of both the individual parts and the combined figure.

I don't agree with, well... any of that.

To the extent that MP Grimlock & MP Soundwave are similar to their G1 counterparts, they still have a large measure of unique engineering thrown in. For the other MPs, they are definitely, definitely not simply enlarged versions of the G1 figures. Those things are entirely re-imagined and re-engineered, and especially when talking about tiny G1 figures like the Constructicons, that re-imagining and re-engineering is 100% necessary.

As I see it, the problem with MP Constructicons are twofold:

(1) Engineering the gestalt to hold its own weight
(2) They can only be redeco-ed into one other character - G2 Devastator

But we'll see. Fingers crossed.

megatronus wrote:I don't agree with, well... any of that.

To the extent that MP Grimlock & MP Soundwave are similar to their G1 counterparts, they still have a large measure of unique engineering thrown in. For the other MPs, they are definitely, definitely not simply enlarged versions of the G1 figures. Those things are entirely re-imagined and re-engineered, and especially when talking about tiny G1 figures like the Constructicons, that re-imagining and re-engineering is 100% necessary.

As I see it, the problem with MP Constructicons are twofold:

(1) Engineering the gestalt to hold its own weight
(2) They can only be redeco-ed into one other character - G2 Devastator

But we'll see. Fingers crossed.

I agree with what you say about the existing MPs, but not the Constructicons. Personally I believe they could easily hold their own weight (Warbotrons Bruticus is going to be massive and looks like it has no problems) without any real difficulties.

As for repaints, weren't there yellow and orange versions made during the G2 line?

Arctorro wrote:As for repaints, weren't there yellow and orange versions made during the G2 line?

Yes. Yes, there were. (I have a yellow G2 devastator that has an orange Mixmaster for one leg. They were all bought at my local Snyder Drug, so I had to get what they carried.)