The Energon Pub

This thread is not for use to disparage other TF continuities. Though I am partial to G1 as there are many questions that are running in my head that there are times I want to know why? Let's just focus on the G1 cartoon continuity (lets include the Japanese take post Season 3 if you like).

Since I know at least two people here hard wired into Vector Sigma's database I am raising a question about a retcon time travel issue in the Japanese coninuity.

I hope anyone can at least help to get it straight because it's bugging the heck of me.

In Car Robots, it got retconned into G1. Brave Max was buried into the earth's core to guard over Unicron's essence.

Later we learn, through KISS Players the Primus was responsible for this. But I need to clarify something:

1. In the past, Primus created Brave Max and left him to guard Unicron

2. Until RID, Brave Max left his post to got to imprison Destronger Megatron

3. Brave Max returns in Robotmasters to be part of Autobot City

4. WTF? The Autobots just received a city sized TF out of nowhere and just incorporated a Divinely designed transformable fortress at face value and incorporated him into Autobot City?

5. During the Battle for Autobot City in 2005, Brave Max just remained inert? WTF?

6. Post KissPlayers when TFs were welcomed back by the EDC, Brave Max was used as a concert venue of sorts until the Sparkabots deceived the KissPlayers to search for Unicron's essence.

7. BraveMax hit a wall in the time stream and crashed to Planet Master where the future Headmasters led by Fortress reversed engineered Brave Max into their super science.

8. WTF? Optimus and their crew already had in hand Brave Max and didn't reverse engineer the technology back before 2005?

9. At what point in the modern era did Metalhawk and the Pretenders pursue the 'cons back into Earth's neolithic age? Was it after the Japanese Headmasters or earlier? Grand Maximus was with them in Pretenders form, and he IS Fortress' bro right? So when DID the Pretender technology start to be used?

10.After defeating the 'cons, so Metalhawk and crew, from the future, stayed on the Earth since the neolithic time on wards to the present just hiding? So as not to disrupt the space time continuum?

I have G1 questions as well though not as detailed as yours. Mine related to the origin of transformers.

1. How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

2. In the G1 cartoons, we see Alpha Trion when the past is discussed. In one episode, he is seen helping Orion Pax after the first confrontation with the new flying transformers (decepticon). But we also see a younger Alpha Trion during the war vs the Quintessons to gain freedom from them. This raises a few questions, did the Quints also create the Decepticons? How would that be possible if they were beaten by their appearance. And it seems they were beaten since Cybertron seems peaceful when Orion Pax meets Megatron. The war against the Quints and the war for the control of Cybertron between the Decepticons and Autobots are 2 different wars (right?, they have to be). And in light of those 2 looong wars, am I to assume that the time of peace on cybertron was really short in comparison?

william-james88 wrote:How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

It's 2 separate continuities. Primus comes from the G1 Marvel comics, whereas the Quintessons are from the cartoon. They have nothing to do with each other, not in the original stories, anyway. I'm not sure about the iDW continuity.

I can't answer your 2nd question, I haven't seen the Alpha Trion G1 episodes in about 10 years, I don't remember.

Operation Combination

Post Return of Convoy I assume.

Links with the existence of 6 train/6 liner who are said to be brothers, 6 turbo, 6 build and 6 wing. Even Landcross makes an appearance.

The story was not completed but Landcross was testing a new stealth technology (similar to the Philadelphia Experiment) where they were sent into the past just prior to Mt. St. Hillary's eruption.

Which Landcross was that? Pre or post Victory?

Retcons and time travel really makes the story even more confusing.

william-james88 wrote:I have G1 questions as well though not as detailed as yours. Mine related to the origin of transformers.

1. How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

2. In the G1 cartoons, we see Alpha Trion when the past is discussed. In one episode, he is seen helping Orion Pax after the first confrontation with the new flying transformers (decepticon). But we also see a younger Alpha Trion during the war vs the Quintessons to gain freedom from them. This raises a few questions, did the Quints also create the Decepticons? How would that be possible if they were beaten by their appearance. And it seems they were beaten since Cybertron seems peaceful when Orion Pax meets Megatron. The war against the Quints and the war for the control of Cybertron between the Decepticons and Autobots are 2 different wars (right?, they have to be). And in light of those 2 looong wars, am I to assume that the time of peace on cybertron was really short in comparison?

In 5 Faces of Darkness, if I got it right

War between the Quints by the Consumer (Autobot ancestors) and Military (Decepticon ancestors) ( before the Golden Age 10,000,000 years ago) 1st Cybertron War

Golden Age of Peace

War between the Consumer and Military 'bots ( before the Golden Age 10,000,000 years ago) 2nd Cybertron War

Consumer 'bots were losing until they develop the art of "transformation" and the Autobots win

Decepticons eventually develop the same art of transformation

10,000,000 years ago (Orion Pax's time of idyllic existence)according to Ironhide in War Dawn, Cybertrons Golden Age

Megatron is built by some light green colored Engineers, kills the Prime and encounters the young dockworker.

Megatron's terrorism leads to the 3rd Cybertron War up to the present. (in the Marvel Continuity, the War Megatron started initially lasted 1000 years until the disappearance of the Ark which stretched it to a war of attrition (4,000,000 years to the present)

Rodimus Prime wrote:

william-james88 wrote:How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

It's 2 separate continuities. Primus comes from the G1 Marvel comics, whereas the Quintessons are from the cartoon. They have nothing to do with each other, not in the original stories, anyway. I'm not sure about the iDW continuity.

I have an update for that answer. It seems the 2 are related, or at least are in a common G1 continuity.

There was an episode in G1 called "Call of the Primatives" It was VERY different in quality than the other season 3 episodes.

Call of the Primatives was actually a VHS exclusive episode in Japan. The Japanese version talks of the "Oracle" being Primus and the Primatives actually going back in time to "early Cybertron" before there was life. The wiki actually covered this well.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Call_of_the_Primitives (Go to the bottom at "JAPANESE")

So Primus exists in the G1 Japan univese and the Quintissons just swooped in after and TOOK OVER, claiming to be the creators.

"Call of the Primitives" is on the season 3 DVD set released by both Rhino and Shout!, IIRC. Was is considered an exclusive to Japan before 2002, when Rhino released the set?

william-james88 wrote:I have an update for that answer. It seems the 2 are related, or at least are in a common G1 continuity.

There was an episode in G1 called "Call of the Primatives" It was VERY different in quality than the other season 3 episodes.

Call of the Primatives was actually a VHS exclusive episode in Japan. The Japanese version talks of the "Oracle" being Primus and the Primatives actually going back in time to "early Cybertron" before there was life. The wiki actually covered this well.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Call_of_the_Primitives (Go to the bottom at "JAPANESE")

So Primus exists in the G1 Japan univese and the Quintissons just swooped in after and TOOK OVER, claiming to be the creators.

dude, how are you coming by some of that info
the link you provided doesnt seem to support you claims.

1, you claimed that the episode in question was a VHS exclusive,. that it didnt run on Japanese tv,. but the link you provided states the episode aired on Japanese tv on June 5, 1987

also, the Japanese dialog in the episode NEVER spoke of the Oracle being Primus, that was all part of a retcon that did years later

fenrir72 wrote:4. WTF? The Autobots just received a city sized TF out of nowhere and just incorporated a Divinely designed transformable fortress at face value and incorporated him into Autobot City?

Well, what better starting point for a city than a city block-sized fortress?

Plus, if we'll recall from what we saw in Car Robots (or in my case, the RID cartoon, since I haven't seen CR yet, but it's all the same footage), Brave Max was so insanely powerful and yet so difficult to work with that he proved to be way more trouble than he was worth. Maybe keeping him inert in city mode wasn't such a bad idea.

fenrir72 wrote:5. During the Battle for Autobot City in 2005, Brave Max just remained inert? WTF?

See above about Brave Max staying inert.

fenrir72 wrote:7. BraveMax hit a wall in the time stream and crashed to Planet Master where the future Headmasters led by Fortress reversed engineered Brave Max into their super science.

8. WTF? Optimus and their crew already had in hand Brave Max and didn't reverse engineer the technology back before 2005?

I don't see the issue here. Brave Max landed on Master 4 million years ago, before Headmaster technology existed, and possibly served as the inspiration for the tech. What's Optimus's crew to do with this?

fenrir72 wrote:9. At what point in the modern era did Metalhawk and the Pretenders pursue the 'cons back into Earth's neolithic age? Was it after the Japanese Headmasters or earlier? Grand Maximus was with them in Pretenders form, and he IS Fortress' bro right? So when DID the Pretender technology start to be used?

The Pretenders didn't time travel to Earth. They came to Earth from Cybertron 8000 in the past when Earth was in the Neolithic Era, which would have been after Headmaster technology was invented on Master, enabling Grand to have gotten a Transtector body and ship like his brother's and leave Master to also become a Pretender and join up with Metalhawk's team.

fenrir72 wrote:10.After defeating the 'cons, so Metalhawk and crew, from the future, stayed on the Earth since the neolithic time on wards to the present just hiding? So as not to disrupt the space time continuum?

See above about the time travel (or lack thereof).

william-james88 wrote:1. How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

As I mentioned in the G1 timeline thread you made, Primus as a character did not yet exist when the G1 cartoon was made, so Primus is not a factor in the G1 cartoon.

william-james88 wrote:2. In the G1 cartoons, we see Alpha Trion when the past is discussed. In one episode, he is seen helping Orion Pax after the first confrontation with the new flying transformers (decepticon). But we also see a younger Alpha Trion during the war vs the Quintessons to gain freedom from them. This raises a few questions, did the Quints also create the Decepticons? How would that be possible if they were beaten by their appearance. And it seems they were beaten since Cybertron seems peaceful when Orion Pax meets Megatron. The war against the Quints and the war for the control of Cybertron between the Decepticons and Autobots are 2 different wars (right?, they have to be). And in light of those 2 looong wars, am I to assume that the time of peace on cybertron was really short in comparison?

fenrir72 wrote:Operation Combination

Post Return of Convoy I assume.

Links with the existence of 6 train/6 liner who are said to be brothers, 6 turbo, 6 build and 6 wing. Even Landcross makes an appearance.

The story was not completed but Landcross was testing a new stealth technology (similar to the Philadelphia Experiment) where they were sent into the past just prior to Mt. St. Hillary's eruption.

Which Landcross was that? Pre or post Victory?

Retcons and time travel really makes the story even more confusing.

The story you're thinking of here isn't Operation Combination (though it does involve some of the same characters), but Transformers: Micromaster. This story is set pre-G1 in the early 1980s. Each of the characters were contemporary of that time period, except for Landcross, who had indeed time traveled from a future point in time that was post-Victory.

Rodimus Prime wrote:"Call of the Primitives" is on the season 3 DVD set released by both Rhino and Shout!, IIRC. Was is considered an exclusive to Japan before 2002, when Rhino released the set?

william-james88 was given some dubious information that led him to believe that the episode was a VHS exclusive when it came out in Japan, when it was just another ordinary televised episode over there.

william-james88 wrote:I have G1 questions as well though not as detailed as yours. Mine related to the origin of transformers.

1. How is the existence of Primus (and his battle wth Unicron) made reason in the light of the Quintessons being the creators of the transformers.

2 different continuities.
Primus vrs unicron is a comic book story

In the cartoon, The tf's were created by the Quintasons, Unicron was created by a monkey

yes, the Japanese series were later retcons, but not everything they added "adds" up

2. In the G1 cartoons, we see Alpha Trion when the past is discussed. In one episode, he is seen helping Orion Pax after the first confrontation with the new flying transformers (decepticon). But we also see a younger Alpha Trion during the war vs the Quintessons to gain freedom from them. This raises a few questions,

Alpha trion "helped" Orion Pax 9 million years in the past

A3 lead the rebellion against the Quints about 11 million years in the past

did the Quints also create the Decepticons? How would that be possible if they were beaten by their appearance.

the Quints created 2 lines of robots.
Military robots a, that became the Decepticons
Service robots, that became the autobots

And it seems they were beaten since Cybertron seems peaceful when Orion Pax meets Megatron. The war against the Quints and the war for the control of Cybertron between the Decepticons and Autobots are 2 different wars (right?, they have to be). And in light of those 2 looong wars, am I to assume that the time of peace on cybertron was really short in comparison?

I would say it was short

Finally got stovokor's response

#7. I mentioned Optimus. And yes, WJ and Perceptor most probably be present, didn't even attempt to take a peak at Brave Max's mechanisms/technology? No attempt to reverse engineer? That makes a really bad scientist (WJ not tinkering) and not taking advantage of a distinct military advantage against the 'cons as having an unused Headmaster technology lying in their hands lol!

#9 Point. So Metalhawk and his crew were technically in pursuit of the 'cons sometime in the past then? Maybe circa 8000 B.C.? So it was not like Primal and the crew who went through a warp gate/wormhole from the future? The wiki isn't clear with that.

And they stayed "undercover" even waaaaaay into 1984 without interacting with their hero Optimus Prime until their more modern nemesis appeared? I am assuming back in Cybertron, Decepticon technology improved (to paraphrase Onslaught in the episode where they took over Decepticon HQ)but not to the level of those in Master.

Sorry for the mix up between Operation Combination.............Arrgh. But 6wing in OC was a Cybertron already here but in the past he was a 'con fighting 6turbo,6train and 6build. So I sort of linked the 2 continuities.

Plausible. And thanks.

I'll be raising another retcon issue about the Nebulans in the JP continuity.

fenrir72 wrote:#7. I mentioned Optimus. And yes, WJ and Perceptor most probably be present, didn't even attempt to take a peak at Brave Max's mechanisms/technology? No attempt to reverse engineer? That makes a really bad scientist (WJ not tinkering) and not taking advantage of a distinct military advantage against the 'cons as having an unused Headmaster technology lying in their hands lol!

We don't know the full circumstances surrounding Brave Max's being used as the base for Autobot City. All we know of his being used for it was told in backstory material as a setup to the main stories, rather than in the main stories themselves.

And besides, what better way to use that power of his than for something constructive over something destructive?

But, why do you keep mentioning the idea of reverse engineering him? What would they be reverse engineering and why?

fenrir72 wrote:#9 Point. So Metalhawk and his crew were technically in pursuit of the 'cons sometime in the past then? Maybe circa 8000 B.C.? So it was not like Primal and the crew who went through a warp gate/wormhole from the future? The wiki isn't clear with that.

They did not time travel, no. The implication of such was not given in the cartoon.

fenrir72 wrote:And they stayed "undercover" even waaaaaay into 1984 without interacting with their hero Optimus Prime until their more modern nemesis appeared? I am assuming back in Cybertron, Decepticon technology improved (to paraphrase Onslaught in the episode where they took over Decepticon HQ)but not to the level of those in Master.

Yes, they remained disguised as humans even while the 1984-2011 wars were going on.

But, I don't see what Master has to do with this.

fenrir72 wrote:Sorry for the mix up between Operation Combination.............Arrgh. But 6wing in OC was a Cybertron already here but in the past he was a 'con fighting 6turbo,6train and 6build. So I sort of linked the 2 continuities.

Sixwing was corrupted into being a Decepticon by a dimensional shockwave that struck the ship that originally brought all of the Six Teams to Earth. The shockwave mutated the crew of Cyberdroids into fully transformable Transformers, by it also warped six of them into Decepticons while the others remained as Autobots. Sixwing was these six evil ones.'

By the time of Operation Combination, however, Sixwing was back to being the Autobot he was supposed to be.

8000 B.C. onward. stovokor mentioned that by that time Master's science was waaaay advance while Decepticon technology on Cybertron (maybe due to the shortage of energon) kind of lagged a bit (the last part is my conclusion. Reason for my conclusion?

The only significant development would be the creation of a Space Bridge. Never saw them (the Headmasters) appear in 1984 to 2010. Only appearing until that Japancentric episode of Headmaster.

Reverse engineering? I mean Sabrblade, if something out of the blue that appears from the sky with some new technology (in fact Divine technology)...........would you be a bit curious how it works or ticks?

Another toy franchise, Macross, the humans reversed engineered the tech they acquired........"Over technology" iirc. You'd think the gear heads among the Autobots wouldn't attempt a peek. The Cybertronians from Master did so when Brave Max crashed on Master.

And thanks for the input.

fenrir72 wrote:8000 B.C. onward. stovokor mentioned that by that time Master's science was waaaay advance while Decepticon technology on Cybertron (maybe due to the shortage of energon) kind of lagged a bit (the last part is my conclusion. Reason for my conclusion?

The only significant development would be the creation of a Space Bridge. Never saw them (the Headmasters) appear in 1984 to 2010. Only appearing until that Japancentric episode of Headmaster.

When/where did Sto say that?

fenrir72 wrote:Reverse engineering? I mean Sabrblade, if something out of the blue that appears from the sky with some new technology (in fact Divine technology)...........would you be a bit curious how it works or ticks?

What are you talking about? Brave Max appeared from the sky on Master 4 million years ago, not Earth in 2004. No one from Optimus's team was there when Brave Max crash-landed on Master.

Sabrblade wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:8000 B.C. onward. stovokor mentioned that by that time Master's science was waaaay advance while Decepticon technology on Cybertron (maybe due to the shortage of energon) kind of lagged a bit (the last part is my conclusion. Reason for my conclusion?

The only significant development would be the creation of a Space Bridge. Never saw them (the Headmasters) appear in 1984 to 2010. Only appearing until that Japancentric episode of Headmaster.

When/where did Sto say that?

fenrir72 wrote:Reverse engineering? I mean Sabrblade, if something out of the blue that appears from the sky with some new technology (in fact Divine technology)...........would you be a bit curious how it works or ticks?

What are you talking about? Brave Max appeared from the sky on Master 4 million years ago, not Earth in 2004. No one from Optimus's team was there when Brave Max crash-landed on Master.

[ quote="sto_vo_kor_2000"]The Pretenders didn't time travel to Earth. They came to Earth from Cybertron 8000 in the past when Earth was in the Neolithic Era, which would have been after Headmaster technology was invented on Master, enabling Grand to have gotten a Transtector body and ship like his brother's and leave Master to also become a Pretender and join up with Metalhawk's team.[/quote]

As I mentioned, the creation of the Space Bridge IS my conclusion, sto mentioned that the new (headmaster/pretender)technology (most probably from Brave max) was invented from Master. So 8000 B.C. onward, tech from Master never reached Shockwave. Only the Space Bridge was the significant development there.

Didn't Brave Max return to Earth after Fire Convoy imprisoned Destronger Megatron? That was chronicled in Robotmasters. It is stated that from that point prior to the 2005 Battle for Autobot City, Brave Max became part of Autobot City or was incorporated into Autobot City. That's why I was wondering why after incorporating him, Brave Max, no one checked on his technology?

So as the retcon makes it out, after the KissPlayer episode, Brave Max got flung to the past where Fortress must have done some reverse engineering on him on Master. See how confusing the retcons do ?

fenrir72 wrote:Didn't Brave Max return to Earth after Fire Convoy imprisoned Destronger Megatron? That was chronicled in Robotmasters. It is stated that from that point prior to the 2005 Battle for Autobot City, Brave Max became part of Autobot City or was incorporated into Autobot City. That's why I was wondering why after incorporating him, Brave Max, no one checked on his technology?

As I said, we DON'T KNOW the exact circumstances of his being integrated into Autobot City. All RobotMasters told us was "Brave Max formed the core of Autobot City." That's ALL we know. Your claims of his coming out of the sky in front of Optimus's team and their acting too dumb to look into him are completely unfounded.

fenrir72 wrote:So as the retcon makes it out, after the KissPlayer episode, Brave Max got flung to the past where Fortress must have done some reverse engineering on him on Master. See how confusing the retcons do ?

What's confusing about that? First he was in 2007, and then got sent back in time to crash-land on Master. That's no more confusing than the Maximals and Predacons of Beast Wars traveling back in time from the future into past to crash-land on prehistoric Earth.

Sabrblade wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:Didn't Brave Max return to Earth after Fire Convoy imprisoned Destronger Megatron? That was chronicled in Robotmasters. It is stated that from that point prior to the 2005 Battle for Autobot City, Brave Max became part of Autobot City or was incorporated into Autobot City. That's why I was wondering why after incorporating him, Brave Max, no one checked on his technology?

As I said, we DON'T KNOW the exact circumstances of his being integrated into Autobot City. All RobotMasters told us was "Brave Max formed the core of Autobot City." That's ALL we know. Your claims of his coming out of the sky in front of Optimus's team and their acting too dumb to look into him are completely unfounded.

fenrir72 wrote:So as the retcon makes it out, after the KissPlayer episode, Brave Max got flung to the past where Fortress must have done some reverse engineering on him on Master. See how confusing the retcons do ?

What's confusing about that? First he was in 2007, and then got sent back in time to crash-land on Master. That's no more confusing than the Maximals and Predacons of Beast Wars traveling back in time from the future into past to crash-land on prehistoric Earth.

Not necessarily unfounded. Let me repeat:

1. Brave Max sends Destrongers to prison (Car Robots)
2. Retcon into G1
3. Robotmasters (Brave Max becomes part/core of Autobot City). So he'd have to arrived and landed close to or at the site of the Autobot City's construction. He came from space so he must have landed from the sky.
4. How do you incorporate a City sized bot into a portion into your ongoing project? You'd have to build around him.And check for any traps ala Trojan Horse. And not have found the new Headmaster technology?
5. As for how dumb the Autobots are, I didn't technically say that but no new tech showed up from the time they incorporated Brave into Autonot City.............except Metroplex in Scramble City.

fenrir72 wrote:3. Robotmasters (Brave Max becomes part/core of Autobot City). So he'd have to arrived and landed close to or at the site of the Autobot City's construction. He came from space so he must have landed from the sky.

OR he could have arrived back BEFORE the idea of Autobot City was even conceived by Optimus's team.

OR he could have arrived back before Optimus's team resurfaced from their pre-Car Robots disappearance.

In either case, he would then have been on Earth early enough for his systems to be looked over before ever being used to make Autobot City.

In fact, would it not make sense for them to HAVE to look him over even before using him as the core of their construction project? I mean, you don't start building something around a core without first knowing that the core is sufficient enough. They would have HAD to have looked at his systems before even beginning to use him in the construction process. Otherwise, if they weren't sure or didn't make sure that his systems were compatible with their plans, then the project could have gone awry and failed. But it evidently didn't since Autobot City was indeed built. So logic would dictate that they must have looked him over before deciding to build a whole city out of him.

fenrir72 wrote:4. How do you incorporate a City sized bot into a portion into your ongoing project? You'd have to build around him.And check for any traps ala Trojan Horse. And not have found the new Headmaster technology?

Who says that they didn't find it? And what good would it have done them?

fenrir72 wrote:5. As for how dumb the Autobots are, I didn't technically say that but no new tech showed up from the time they incorporated Brave into Autonot City.............except Metroplex in Scramble City.

Metroplex predated Autobot City. He was constructed in the late 1980s.

And how do you know there was no new tech involved in the construction of Autobot City? Do you know everything that went on during the project from start to finish?

Sabrblade wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:3. Robotmasters (Brave Max becomes part/core of Autobot City). So he'd have to arrived and landed close to or at the site of the Autobot City's construction. He came from space so he must have landed from the sky.

OR he could have arrived back BEFORE the idea of Autobot City was even conceived by Optimus's team.

OR he could have arrived back before Optimus's team resurfaced from their pre-Car Robots disappearance.

In either case, he would then have been on Earth early enough for his systems to be looked over before ever being used to make Autobot City.

In fact, would it not make sense for them to HAVE to look him over even before using him as the core of their construction project? I mean, you don't start building something around a core without first knowing that the core is sufficient enough. They would have HAD to have looked at his systems before even beginning to use him in the construction process. Otherwise, if they weren't sure or didn't make sure that his systems were compatible with their plans, then the project could have gone awry and failed. But it evidently didn't since Autobot City was indeed built. So logic would dictate that they must have looked him over before deciding to build a whole city out of him.

fenrir72 wrote:4. How do you incorporate a City sized bot into a portion into your ongoing project? You'd have to build around him.And check for any traps ala Trojan Horse. And not have found the new Headmaster technology?

Who says that they didn't find it? And what good would it have done them?

fenrir72 wrote:5. As for how dumb the Autobots are, I didn't technically say that but no new tech showed up from the time they incorporated Brave into Autonot City.............except Metroplex in Scramble City.

Metroplex predated Autobot City. He was constructed in the late 1980s.

And how do you know there was no new tech involved in the construction of Autobot City? Do you know everything that went on during the project from start to finish?

1. I already assume that the Autobots took a look see on Brave Max's structure. As for new tech, I can just base my opinion/conclusion as to the technology in the show............no new ones until the end of Season#3 Headmaster showed up among the 'bots from master so the present 'bots we know never used new "master" tech. So no new tech showed up.

2. He was made core of Autobot City, so it is possible he was the inspiration ....again (second would be Headmaster tech etc) at constructing him.

3. "Metroplex was made in the late 80s", thanks for the reminding me, now that I recall, Scramble City showed Spike and Carly in their 80 appearance. So Metroplex is old technology. No tech was taken from Brave Max. As for the Headmaster tech not being useful, "the use of secondary operators" in combat would have up the military advantage and maybe even stopped Megatron from conquering Cybertron prior to the 1986 Movie right? Any advantage in warfare, especially technological really ups the ante to the group that possessed it. Again, I am putting a bit of real world pragmatism.

That's the problem with forced shoe horning of continuities. Creative to retcon to try and bring some sanity to the story but more issues do crop up.

Btw to people out there...........I really find this enjoyable that stov and Sabr gets to contribute with an productive exchange of ideas on TF lore. Keep it coming guys.

fenrir72 wrote:1. I already assume that the Autobots took a look see on Brave Max's structure. As for new tech, I can just base my opinion/conclusion as to the technology in the show............no new ones until the end of Season#3 Headmaster showed up among the 'bots from master so the present 'bots we know never used new "master" tech. So no new tech showed up.

Is it not conceivable that any and all tech they took from Brave Max might have gone into the construction of Autobot City itself?

fenrir72 wrote:2. He was made core of Autobot City, so it is possible he was the inspiration ....again (second would be Headmaster tech etc) at constructing him.

This sentence is complete vague without a direct object for the subject (Brave Max) to be speaking of.

fenrir72 wrote:3. "Metroplex was made in the late 80s", thanks for the reminding me, now that I recall, Scramble City showed Spike and Carly in their 80 appearance. So Metroplex is old technology. No tech was taken from Brave Max.

See first response above.

fenrir72 wrote:As for the Headmaster tech not being useful, "the use of secondary operators" in combat would have up the military advantage and maybe even stopped Megatron from conquering Cybertron prior to the 1986 Movie right? Any advantage in warfare, especially technological really ups the ante to the group that possessed it. Again, I am putting a bit of real world pragmatism.

That is not how Headmaster technology works in Japanese continuity. There are no "secondary operators".

Brave Max is not alive. All he is is a giant lifeless fortress/ship. It's Plasma who's alive. Plasma's the one who matters, here. Without him, Brave Max is good for little more than being a building.

fenrir72 wrote:That's the problem with forced shoe horning of continuities. Creative to retcon to try and bring some sanity to the story but more issues do crop up.

There's no issue here. The Autobots obviously looked over Brave Max's tech and used it to build a city instead of beheading themselves.

Sabrblade wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:1. I already assume that the Autobots took a look see on Brave Max's structure. As for new tech, I can just base my opinion/conclusion as to the technology in the show............no new ones until the end of Season#3 Headmaster showed up among the 'bots from master so the present 'bots we know never used new "master" tech. So no new tech showed up.

Is it not conceivable that any and all tech they took from Brave Max might have gone into the construction of Autobot City itself?

fenrir72 wrote:2. He was made core of Autobot City, so it is possible he was the inspiration ....again (second would be Headmaster tech etc) at constructing him.

This sentence is complete vague without a direct object for the subject (Brave Max) to be speaking of.

fenrir72 wrote:3. "Metroplex was made in the late 80s", thanks for the reminding me, now that I recall, Scramble City showed Spike and Carly in their 80 appearance. So Metroplex is old technology. No tech was taken from Brave Max.

See first response above.

fenrir72 wrote:As for the Headmaster tech not being useful, "the use of secondary operators" in combat would have up the military advantage and maybe even stopped Megatron from conquering Cybertron prior to the 1986 Movie right? Any advantage in warfare, especially technological really ups the ante to the group that possessed it. Again, I am putting a bit of real world pragmatism.

That is not how Headmaster technology works in Japanese continuity. There are no "secondary operators".

Brave Max is not alive. All he is is a giant lifeless fortress/ship. It's Plasma who's alive. Plasma's the one who matters, here. Without him, Brave Max is good for little more than being a building.

fenrir72 wrote:That's the problem with forced shoe horning of continuities. Creative to retcon to try and bring some sanity to the story but more issues do crop up.

There's no issue here. The Autobots obviously looked over Brave Max's tech and used it to build a city instead of beheading themselves.

Touche about the "secondary operators" That was in Rebirth...........intentional and guilty.

What if...........back in between 2000 to 2005? Optimus and the gang incorporated Headmaster technology1 generation before in the Japanese continuity, would that have affected the space time continuum?

Cybertron would not have fallen to Megatron and when Unicron arrives etc. Would that have negated the KissPlayer storyline thereby preventing Brave from crashing to Master etc etc?
This all because of those nuts at Takara who did this retcon.........to sell toys

Makes your head hurt but at least we ain't talking about pastries and stuff.

Issue that is confusing me (JP continuity again) in Masterforce

It was explained that:

1. The body used in Masterforce by Ginrai was a body meant for Convoy/OptimusPrime
2. Transtectors, are non living(?) parts
3. Devil Z stole them in the present right? Then sent them to the past. Where they were charged with chokon energy.
4. I am assuming the transtectors were built by the Autobots/Cybertrons. But what of Overlord and the rest........they were also using the same tech? The'cons I mean. They also built themselves their own?
5. Were there plans or actual existing citizens of Master (aside for the Optimus transtector) to operate them? The Transtector exo suit armor (i.e. head and engine comes from the bracelets), would it be okay to say that it was meant to be operated by an organic and not cybertronian being?
6. Then Devil Z goes on to rant that he was responsible for the Transtectors, Master braces etc. Was that all hot air? The Autobots also had theirs when presented to Minerva and the rest.
7. Ending was too abrupt. After killing Devil Z, the human operators just simply separated? And new beings were born?

fenrir72 wrote:What if...........back in between 2000 to 2005? Optimus and the gang incorporated Headmaster technology1 generation before in the Japanese continuity, would that have affected the space time continuum?

It's not that it would have affected history, but the effects it would have wrought upon the war.

Since Headmaster technology in the Japanese continuity involves one turning into a head for a larger lifeless body, had the pre-1986 Autobots done that to themselves, then we'd have had a bunch of gestalt-sized Headmasters running around with ten times as much destructive capability. And as was common in the G1 cartoon, suppose the tech were to fall into enemy hands, allowing the Decepticons to also become the heads of super giant bodies. With the war changing from being between two armies of giant robots to being between two armies of extra gigantic gestalt-sized robots, the conflict would have likely increased to cataclysmic proportions, severely upping the levels of collateral damage and destruction across the globe. It would absolutely do more harm than good, being like All Hail Megatron crossed with Dark of the Moon to the nth power. With such awesome power plays between the two factions, the Earth would most assuredly be rendered a ruinous war zone from such catastrophic power levels.

In all honesty, I think the Autobots were far wiser to build a bigger city out of the already insanely-powerful-to-control citybot instead of exploiting such power to turn themselves into WMDs than they already were.

fenrir72 wrote:3. Devil Z stole them in the present right? Then sent them to the past. Where they were charged with chokon energy.

He stole them in the past, which complicates things related to Ginrai's Transtector being meant to be a new body for Optimus (a fault of the cartoon itself, not the 2007 retcons).

fenrir72 wrote:4. I am assuming the transtectors were built by the Autobots/Cybertrons. But what of Overlord and the rest........they were also using the same tech? The'cons I mean. They also built themselves their own?
5. Were there plans or actual existing citizens of Master (aside for the Optimus transtector) to operate them? The Transtector exo suit armor (i.e. head and engine comes from the bracelets), would it be okay to say that it was meant to be operated by an organic and not cybertronian being?

All of the Godmaster Transtectors were made in the G Nebula 89 and stolen by Devil Z. All of the Headmaster Junior Transtectors were built on Master and, en route to Earth from Master, the shipment was intercepted by the Decepticons, who stole three of them.

fenrir72 wrote:6. Then Devil Z goes on to rant that he was responsible for the Transtectors, Master braces etc. Was that all hot air? The Autobots also had theirs when presented to Minerva and the rest.

It is generally regarded that Devil Z was lying, yes.

fenrir72 wrote:7. Ending was too abrupt. After killing Devil Z, the human operators just simply separated? And new beings were born?

Yep. All the Autobot Transtectors received their own lives from the strong bonds they had with the humans after the Transtectors were cut off from said bonds that were made first possible by Devil Z. But once he was dead, so too were the bonds. But through those bonds, a miracle happened that granted the Autobot Transtectors lives of their own.

Though, the Headmaster Juniors shouldn't have lost their bonds with their Transtectors since Devil Z had no hand in those ones. Whoops.

Sabrblade wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:What if...........back in between 2000 to 2005? Optimus and the gang incorporated Headmaster technology1 generation before in the Japanese continuity, would that have affected the space time continuum?

It's not that it would have affected history, but the effects it would have wrought upon the war.

Since Headmaster technology in the Japanese continuity involves one turning into a head for a larger lifeless body, had the pre-1986 Autobots done that to themselves, then we'd have had a bunch of gestalt-sized Headmasters running around with ten times as much destructive capability. And as was common in the G1 cartoon, suppose the tech were to fall into enemy hands, allowing the Decepticons to also become the heads of super giant bodies. With the war changing from being between two armies of giant robots to being between two armies of extra gigantic gestalt-sized robots, the conflict would have likely increased to cataclysmic proportions, severely upping the levels of collateral damage and destruction across the globe. It would absolutely do more harm than good, being like All Hail Megatron crossed with Dark of the Moon to the nth power. With such awesome power plays between the two factions, the Earth would most assuredly be rendered a ruinous war zone from such catastrophic power levels.

In all honesty, I think the Autobots were far wiser to build a bigger city out of the already insanely-powerful-to-control citybot instead of exploiting such power to turn themselves into WMDs than they already were.

Yeah.......a really big cluster f*ck. But you know, you kind of got me the answer, maybe Optimus negated WJ from further tinkering with Brave Max............."Dinobots with small brains........." I didn't realize that until now..........and I can just imagine WJ getting....."No WJ!" Request to access Brave Max......DENIED!"

On the Godmaster transtectors, so it was stolen in the past. So more or less maybe again around the time of the Neolithic period? Thanks for the clarification. I though they were taken in the present and sent to the past to charge up.

Again, many thanks for the clarification.

As an aside, I feel it should also be mentioned that, unlike the Headmasters of 1987-1988, instead of being smaller Bots who form the heads of regular-sized TF bodies, Plasma is a regular-sized Bot who forms the head of the much larger Brave, who forms the head of the extra larger than large Brave Maximus. So Brave Maximus is even larger than the gargantuan Fortress Maximus.

When Primus goes big, he really goes big.