The Energon Pub

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:26 am**

Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:"Stop motion photography used"

Not only that, YOU USED GUNDAM MARKER!

Horridly applied marker at that.

Also, I recognize that Transformers: Prime score anywhere, 0:27.

Ah...I miss TFP. I wish Netflix would make a Transformers series for adults.

Or Studio Trigger.
We just got a Transformers series for adults.

And it sucked.

I don't see any mature themes being tackled. Any kid can watch that.

So no, we haven't yet.
Twas still billed as a show for adults, with its staff even absurdly claiming it to be "the Game of Thrones of animation".

If it's mature themes you want, Beast Machines was all in to that stuff, tackling such topics as "harmony vs. extremism", "the needs of one vs. the needs of many", "conflict and inequality in a free society", "free will vs. totalitarianism", "religious faith in a higher power", and more.

I was thinking more on the side of what Logan was, as a story that could not be told to kids in any way.
A hard R gorefest isn't what this franchise needs (we get enough graphic violence from the movies as is), nor is it truly "mature". It's just sick.

I wasn't referring to the violence. Good action can occur with or without blood.

I'm referring to the themes that only an R film can tackle. Logan had issues of human rights, mental illness and some truly horrifying things that probably couldn't be done justice in a PG-13 film.

I'm talking about the kind of stuff we see in IDW, not just a simple gore fest.

(On a side not, the inclusion of Chromedome and Rewind would probably cause an IDW adaptation to go full R, because they're a bunch of homophobes.)

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:01 am**

I agree it would be interesting, but with IDW covering such areas in no less than three ongoings (and handling them extremely well to the extent I'm not sure how much better a show starting from scratch could do), I'm pretty happy to have all-ages cartoons on the side

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:37 am**

Myself I'd like to see a more "mature" Transformers anime OVA styled after stuff like Bubblegum Crisis. So still funny, fun and fluffy but with some violence and more adult themes mixed in. Also with actual 2D animation (preferably with ALL THE SHADING) instead of the rubbish CGI we got with Combiner Wars. Granted I'm biased because late 80s/early 90s anime OVAs are my jam.

Topic: Is Scorponok worth picking up? He's started showing up in my local toy store and he looks pretty cool.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:09 am**

Black Hat wrote:Myself I'd like to see a more "mature" Transformers anime OVA styled after stuff like Bubblegum Crisis. So still funny, fun and fluffy but with some violence and more adult themes mixed in. Also with actual 2D animation (preferably with ALL THE SHADING) instead of the rubbish CGI we got with Combiner Wars. Granted I'm biased because late 80s/early 90s anime OVAs are my jam.

Topic: Is Scorponok worth picking up? He's started showing up in my local toy store and he looks pretty cool.

Yeah, he is great, like other 2016 RID cons.

And I personally think we are going about this the wrong way in the words we use to express what we want in a cartoon. Adult, not for kids, mature... so 18+ ? Gore and cybertities? I know thats not what you guys mean, but these words used are all wrong. We want one thing: for it to be smart and involved. And That doesnt mean its just for adults. Look at the Batman Animated Series and the other Bruce Timm stuff. It was for kids but written with brains and care for the audience while not being fanfic at all. it showed the essence of all these amaxing characters and told the story the creators wanted to tell with them rather than think of what we wanted. It doesnt have to be mature to be smart. We mention MTMTE as if its just for us "adults" but young teens can read it too (kids can as well, I dont see why they shouldnt or cant) and I truly hope they do because its a great series. In the end, the best Transformers fiction has had no age restrictions so I find this whole adult talk quite silly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:01 am**

william-james88 wrote:
Black Hat wrote:Myself I'd like to see a more "mature" Transformers anime OVA styled after stuff like Bubblegum Crisis. So still funny, fun and fluffy but with some violence and more adult themes mixed in. Also with actual 2D animation (preferably with ALL THE SHADING) instead of the rubbish CGI we got with Combiner Wars. Granted I'm biased because late 80s/early 90s anime OVAs are my jam.

Topic: Is Scorponok worth picking up? He's started showing up in my local toy store and he looks pretty cool.

Yeah, he is great, like other 2016 RID cons.

And I personally think we are going about this the wrong way in the words we use to express what we want in a cartoon. Adult, not for kids, mature... so 18+ ? Gore and cybertities? I know thats not what you guys mean, but these words used are all wrong. We want one thing: for it to be smart and involved. And That doesnt mean its just for adults. Look at the Batman Animated Series and the other Bruce Timm stuff. It was for kids but written with brains and care for the audience while not being fanfic at all. it showed the essence of all these amaxing characters and told the story the creators wanted to tell with them rather than think of what we wanted. It doesnt have to be mature to be smart. We mention MTMTE as if its just for us "adults" but young teens can read it too (kids can as well, I dont see why they shouldnt or cant) and I truly hope they do because its a great series. In the end, the best Transformers fiction has had no age restrictions so I find this whole adult talk quite silly.

There's some pretty heavy Politics and quite a bit of violence in MTMTE. Not something I'd hand to my niece or nephew.
Also I suppose when I say 'adult' I include 'young adult' in that bracket too, so like 16 or 15+.

I don't feel it's silly at all to want fiction that caters to older audiences because it allows you to tackle subject matter not particularly appropriate for younger audiences - again, like I said; politics and violence being a few examples. What would be silly is wanting it to replace all-ages fiction rather than run alongside it additionally, but no-one seems to have suggested that (quite thankfully). I feel the balance we have right now works - RiD for all-ages, Rescue Bots for even younger audiences, and the IDW comics having mature subjects for older audiences to get invested in. All of which I feel are decent at worst - I'd honestly argue this is one of the best times to be a Transformers fan because you've got so much fiction which each does its own unique and interesting thing.
Oh, and, uh, there's those movies too I guess.

In any case... think I'll leave it there personally since it is quite off-topic by this point.

Anyone seen Ratchet yet in the UK? I really want Ratchet.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:05 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:I wasn't referring to the violence. Good action can occur with or without blood.

I'm referring to the themes that only an R film can tackle.

A film's rating isn't determined by what themes it covers, it's determined by how much drugs, language, sex, and violence it has.

You could make the most philosophically deep movie ever made and still only have it rated PG if it's not dirty enough. The rating system gauges a film's filthiness or indecency, not its depth.

You mentioned IDW, Kurona mentioned Rescue Bots, and I mentioned Beast Machines. I'll also toss one more series into that ring, Beast Wars: Uprising, as these four are probably the most prolific TF fiction of recent years (well, of all years, in BM's case) that we've ever had. And yet, none of them (well, maybe IDW to a degree) do or would warrant an R rating since, despite how deep each of them are, they don't contain enough drugs, language, sex, or violence to be granted an R rating.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:22 am**

We as fans are extremely diverse, amazing since the Transformers we all love have become just as diverse. Many years ago I was one of those fans that said "no you cant do that" especially when the Marvel comic deviated so much from the original animated series...Look at things now. Just like any other modern fiction, Transformers has quite a wide range. Sure there are plenty of things I don't like, but I have found, that if I am patient and wait long enough something will come along again, eventually that I have a strong connection with, and sure plenty of disappointments, but also some nice surprises as well. Enjoy the ride. I too miss TF Prime immensely, but at least that continuity, that world is still being built through RiD15, even if it isn't ideal, its still pretty decent, whereas other past continuities are pretty much not being revisited at all, unfortunately.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:23 pm**

And I personally think we are going about this the wrong way in the words we use to express what we want in a cartoon. Adult, not for kids, mature... so 18+ ? Gore and cybertities? I know thats not what you guys mean, but these words used are all wrong. We want one thing: for it to be smart and involved. And That doesnt mean its just for adults. Look at the Batman Animated Series and the other Bruce Timm stuff. It was for kids but written with brains and care for the audience while not being fanfic at all. it showed the essence of all these amaxing characters and told the story the creators wanted to tell with them rather than think of what we wanted. It doesnt have to be mature to be smart. We mention MTMTE as if its just for us "adults" but young teens can read it too (kids can as well, I dont see why they shouldnt or cant) and I truly hope they do because its a great series. In the end, the best Transformers fiction has had no age restrictions so I find this whole adult talk quite silly.

I know what you mean, for certain. I think I'm letting my personal preferences cloud my judgement.

That said, I'd dig a Transformers anime that was aimed more squarely at older fans, for three reasons. For one, it would allow for more mature themes than something aimed at kids- not because kids entertainment can't be mature or intelligent (as you say, look at Bruce Timm's work, or a surprising amount of "children's" anime) but because it would allow for slightly more creative freedom for the staff, and therefore hopefully more "punchy" storytelling (so for example, less need to tip-toe around the issue of death). That's not to say that I'd want 40K-levels of grimdark or Tarantino ultraviolence, but something on par with the '86 movie or some of the Marvel comics, which whilst not exactly gory, were still pretty brutal.

Secondly, almost all Transformers animation thus far has been "family friendly" which whilst not a bad thing in and of itself, does leave a gap in the market. I'd be interested to see how it actually turned out in any event.

Finally, a series aimed explicitly at older fans (who would presumably have greater spending power than kids) would most likely benefit from a higher budget than a kid's show, and thus hopefully have better production values.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on the matter, lest the thread get completely derailed. Maybe someone should continue the topic in the Cartoons and Comics forum?

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:52 pm**

Black Hat wrote:Secondly, almost all Transformers animation thus far has been "family friendly" which whilst not a bad thing in and of itself, does leave a gap in the market. I'd be interested to see how it actually turned out in any event.

But we have a pretty good idea of what that would be, it would be the live action films in cartoon form. The films are specifically aimed at that gap (along with the combienr wars cartoon) and so far the extra freedom just resulted in needless "gore", dogs humping and shots of asses.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:17 pm**

I still think WB/DC (at least prior to making New 52 animated films) was the gold standard for making superhero content aimed at an adult audience without going over-the-top. I think films like Superman/Batman Public Enemies, Justice League Doom, and Batman: Under the red Hood are some of the best. Admittedly I think they've taken it too far with the recent "R" rated animation, but that's just me. The afore mentioned films did things that the DCAU could not do on weekdays/weekends, but it was still well written and had just enough action to be edgy, but not gratuitous. Also I still hail GI Joe Extreme as another great example. All Machimina had to do was follow a similar pattern, but they did not, and failed miserably.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:00 pm**

Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:I wasn't referring to the violence. Good action can occur with or without blood.

I'm referring to the themes that only an R film can tackle.
A film's rating isn't determined by what themes it covers, it's determined by how much drugs, language, sex, and violence it has.

You could make the most philosophically deep movie ever made and still only have it rated PG if it's not dirty enough. The rating system gauges a film's filthiness or indecency, not its depth.

You mentioned IDW, Kurona mentioned Rescue Bots, and I mentioned Beast Machines. I'll also toss one more series into that ring, Beast Wars: Uprising, as these four are probably the most prolific TF fiction of recent years (well, of all years, in BM's case) that we've ever had. And yet, none of them (well, maybe IDW to a degree) do or would warrant an R rating since, despite how deep each of them are, they don't contain enough drugs, language, sex, or violence to be granted an R rating.

However some themes can only be covered by certain ratings. Not sure if Transformers has the makings of an R film, but it's important to at least try something truly for adults.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:48 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:However some themes can only be covered by certain ratings.

Only if said themes are filthy or indecent enough to warrant certain ratings.

It's the higher-minded ideas behind the themes that make them mature. Take away any graphic content that would necessitate an R rating and the rating get lowered but the ideas remain intact, and it's those ideas that matter more than anything.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:49 am**

Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:However some themes can only be covered by certain ratings.
Only if said themes are filthy or indecent enough to warrant certain ratings.

It's the higher-minded ideas behind the themes that make them mature. Take away any graphic content that would necessitate an R rating and the rating get lowered but the ideas remain intact, and it's those ideas that matter more than anything.

That's not what necessarily causes an R rating. It can, but isn't the absolute case.

What happened to the convo title though?

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:52 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:What happened to the convo title though?

You're in a new thread. In a different forum. ;)^

You're welcome!

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:54 am**

Cobotron wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:What happened to the convo title though?
You're in a new thread. In a different forum.

You're welcome!

Hm...so derailing equates to purging from this site...

...not sure I like the direction, but okay. Does push the idea for having a new thread for each news article...

...but I digress. I've only just started here and I don't intend to cause a fuss.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:56 am**

Cobotron wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:What happened to the convo title though?
You're in a new thread. In a different forum.

You're welcome!

Burn teaching Cobotron how to split topics wrote:Cobotron - Do I need to change all those titles, or just let them be?
Burn - I personally would leave it be. Lot of work for something the majority of people won't notice.

Dammit. *throws a fragment of Va'als soul @ Dr Lockdown* :-P

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:58 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:However some themes can only be covered by certain ratings.
Only if said themes are filthy or indecent enough to warrant certain ratings.

It's the higher-minded ideas behind the themes that make them mature. Take away any graphic content that would necessitate an R rating and the rating get lowered but the ideas remain intact, and it's those ideas that matter more than anything.

That's not what necessarily causes an R rating. It can, but isn't the absolute case.

DSLV content is what the rating system is based on. It gauges decency, not intelligence.

After all, for every thought-provoking film out there (of any rating), there are also a ton of idiotic R-rated and X-rated films that are pure garbage instead of anything inspiring. Same goes for however many G and PG films there are that are either dumb as toast or highbrow beyond expectation.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:58 am**

Burn wrote:
Cobotron wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:What happened to the convo title though?
You're in a new thread. In a different forum.

You're welcome!

Burn teaching Cobotron how to split topics wrote:Cobotron - Do I need to change all those titles, or just let them be?
Burn - I personally would leave it be. Lot of work for something the majority of people won't notice.

Dammit. *throws a fragment of Va'als soul @ Dr Lockdown*

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:59 am**

Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:However some themes can only be covered by certain ratings.
Only if said themes are filthy or indecent enough to warrant certain ratings.

It's the higher-minded ideas behind the themes that make them mature. Take away any graphic content that would necessitate an R rating and the rating get lowered but the ideas remain intact, and it's those ideas that matter more than anything.

That's not what necessarily causes an R rating. It can, but isn't the absolute case.
DSLV content is what the rating system is based on. It gauges decency, not intelligence.

After all, for every thought-provoking film out there (of any rating), there are also a ton of idiotic R-rated and X-rated films that are pure garbage instead of anything inspiring. Same goes for however many G and PG films there are that are either dumb as toast or highbrow beyond expectation.

Not sure how the American system is different to Australia, but some themes do warrant an MA rating. A film can show nothing yet be rated R simply from ideas alone.

But as I said earlier, not sure if Transformers has the makings of an R rated film, but a more mature story is definitely something they should focus on at some point.

CW doesn't count. Dumb does not equal mature. Any kid could watch that.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:00 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:Hm...so derailing equates to purging from this site...

No. Two other users requested it be turned into it's own topic. I agreed.

Dr Lockdown wrote:I don't intend to cause a fuss.

You didn't.

Now back on topic! :-P

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:01 am**

Cobotron wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:Hm...so derailing equates to purging from this site...
No. Two other users requested it be turned into it's own topic. I agreed.

Dr Lockdown wrote:I don't intend to cause a fuss.
You didn't.

Now back on topic!

(Explosion symbolises derailing of topic again. DERAILCEPTION!)

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:12 am**

Dr Lockdown wrote:But as I said earlier, not sure if Transformers has the makings of an R rated film, but a more mature story is definitely something they should focus on at some point.

And as I said before, we've already had a TF cartoon that focused almost entirely around mature themes: Beast Machines.

Just because it was safe enough for children to watch it doesn't mean the philosophical subjects it tackled weren't mature or highbrow. I know a lot of them certainly flew over my head as a kid, as I didn't fully grasp the significance of those topics until I was older.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:13 am**

Sabrblade wrote:
Dr Lockdown wrote:But as I said earlier, not sure if Transformers has the makings of an R rated film, but a more mature story is definitely something they should focus on at some point.
And as I said before, we've already had a TF cartoon that focused almost entirely around mature themes: Beast Machines.

Just because it was safe enough for children to watch it doesn't mean the philosophical subjects it tackled weren't mature or highbrow. I know a lot of them certainly flew over my head as a kid, as I didn't fully grasp the significance of those topics until I was older.

I know, and that's a start, but I was thinking something more along the lines of MTMTE.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:41 am**

Did D.C. Fontana write on Beast Machines too, or just Beast Wars?
Can't remember off the top of my head without pulling up some episodes.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:51 am**

Cobotron wrote:Did D.C. Fontana write on Beast Machines too, or just Beast Wars?
Can't remember off the top of my head without pulling up some episodes.

just looked on IMDB, looks like her only writing credit was crossing the Rubicon for Beast Wars.

on a side note, just watched a Star Trek documentary (actually more of a Gene Roddenberry doc) but if the things about the late Star Trek creator are true...including comments by DC Fontana, the guy was kind of a sleazeball...

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