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o.supreme wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:

o.supreme wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:And also, if the budget on this thing was so limited why not hire Scott McNeil? He could've done like half the voices and still made it great. Hell, he probably could've Dee Bradley Baker'd it

He's still part of the actors union though...

Yeah, just wishful thinking

If you want to see him "Dee Bradley Baker " a show though...Check out Bucky O'Hare and the Toad wars. It also has Garry Chalk, but supposedly McNeil was doing up to 12 different characters on that show.(according to him...could be false memory though)

Awesome!

It's bad enough when modern TF fiction uses TFTM quote so casually, as if the larger fandom isn't sick and tired of overquoting TFTM... but this show, this show had the gall, the audacity, to quote one of the most poignant lines from "Code of Hero", in a completely different context inferior to the original. The minute this version of Dinobot spoke that line, I yelled at my TV "How DARE you!"

Razorbeast88 wrote:And I seriously can't help but think, why didn't they switch the voice actors for Dinobot and Tigatron? Tigatron sounds like he's imitating Dinobot. And Dinobots smooth tone matches more with Tigatron.

^ This so much!

Sabrblade wrote:It's bad enough when modern TF fiction uses TFTM quote so casually, as if the larger fandom isn't sick and tired of overquoting TFTM... but this show, this show had the gall, the audacity, to quote one of the most poignant lines from "Code of Hero", in a completely different context inferior to the original. The minute this version of Dinobot spoke that line, I yelled at my TV "How DARE you!"

Razorbeast88 wrote:And I seriously can't help but think, why didn't they switch the voice actors for Dinobot and Tigatron? Tigatron sounds like he's imitating Dinobot. And Dinobots smooth tone matches more with Tigatron.

^ This so much!

It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

I'm glad you agree about the voice actors haha it seems like such a waste. Such an easy fix that it just glares at you anytime either of them speak

That line about Two Megatrons... I couldn't help but think of this:

Cottontail Smith wrote:Rabbits. I hate rabbits. If there's one thing I hate more than a rabbit, is two rabbits.

Beast Megs sounds like a dollar store Forest Whitaker or something idk

also the last episode was pretty cool. I enjoyed it more than anything else

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

Well it's done. Just saying the last episode is pretty cool,I don't think warrants a spoiler tag.

I know someone could go full meta and say basically that the resolution to every piece of fiction is borne from a problem of its own divising, but in this series I think it's a little more blatant.

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

I see how you feel a little more now
To be fair I don't think anything in the future is going to match the magnificence of BW Dinobot, especially not in Code of Hero. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching it

Razorbeast88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

I see how you feel a little more now
To be fair I don't think anything in the future is going to match the magnificence of BW Dinobot, especially not in Code of Hero. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching it

I can guarantee that nobody was asking for "Code of Hero, but worse".

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

I see how you feel a little more now
To be fair I don't think anything in the future is going to match the magnificence of BW Dinobot, especially not in Code of Hero. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching it

I can guarantee that nobody was asking for "Code of Hero, but worse".

Can't argue with that one haha

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

There are times when folks writing Transformers need to stop trying to be cool. Both of these are examples of those times.

ScottyP wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:It definitely didn't hit the same. They could've done WAY better job with his dialogue and picking what quotes to use but I appreciated the effort. I saw it as a nod to fans, though poorly executed.

That line was the culmination of Dinobot's entire character journey in the original show. For this show to just use it so casually, without any regard for why it was significant in the first place, is as disgraceful as when DOTM had Sentinel Prime quote Spock's dying words to use them as justification for genocide.

There are times when folks writing Transformers need to stop trying to be cool. Both of these are examples of those times.

I actually thought the inversion of the Spock quote was somewhat clever, and struck me as at least relatively self aware of the seeming wrongness of taking the quote and completely reversing its original meaning. Whereas from what I understand this is pure "I clapped! I got the reference!" bait, and not even particularly well done.

Watched it first thing last night after I came home. I have to say, I wasn't disappointed.

Spoiler bar just in case.

The way the wove the basic plot of Beast Wars with the main storyline was well executed, and enough time was given to the Maximals and Predacons where they had plenty of focus of their own without overshadowing the Autobots and Decepticons. The Predacons especially were treated with respect to their original incarnations while creatively incorporating their arcs into the show's plot. I also liked how, as with Earthrise, the lower-tier characters (Hound, Prowl, Astrotrain, etc.) still got a couple of character moments and action scenes of their own. Really only Sideswipe was neglected, but at least his hallucination of Sunstreaker was a subtle but touching hint of backstory, and it was pretty funny when Airrazor couldn't name-check him.

Speaking of humour, This series' jokes were much improved, creating moments of levity without disrupting the tone or flow of the situation. There were even a few good visual comedy moments, like Rattrap's scurrying through the Nemesis. As one of the common criticisms of Siege was that it was too melodramatic, that Earthrise and Kingdom gradually improved on the balance between seriousness and humour makes up for it a bit.

The voice acting was also greatly improved, although still the series' most detracting quality. Most of the beast characters sounded great, especially Blackarachnia, Rattrap, Airrazor, and Dinobot, although hearing Dinobot and Tigatron, one must wonder why they did not switch voice actors. Beast Megatron's voice may irritate some, but at least it was distinct and not another generic growly baritone. Beast Megs is supposed to be theatrical, so this incarnation's haughty delivery doesn't bother me.
Primal's voice didn't bother me either, but his obnoxious attitude was too blatant to forgive sometimes.

I don't think the show ever expected to match Code of Hero, but I think it handled Dinobot very well. His defection subplot featured some of the best dialogue in the series, and having Airrazor be the catalyst for his turn was a nice way to make this version unique while also being a clever meta-reference to the fact that those two never interacted at all in Beast Wars. Dinobot's final battle was also enjoyable, although I wish his fight with Soundwave lasted longer, that one scene could have justified the entire series had it not been cut so short. But Dinobot besting both Megatrons and saving the Matrix? C'mon, you loved it. His death scene was also surprisingly touching, referencing CoH without undeservedly copying it, and securing the Autobots the advantage they needed. His spirit returning to help Primal was weird, but it was a sweet moment when he recognizes Dinobot's spark ascending. The only thing that really bothered me about his death scene was Primal's responding to Dinobot's question about acceptance with "Yes. But you would have made a terrible Maximal". Especially being the last thing he heard? Ouch! It seemed like there should have been another part to that sentence, that reassured Dinobot that his joining their team would not mean he would have had to abandon his Predacon heritage (as was true in BW), but it sounded more like Pimal was telling him "I would have let you in, but I wouldn't have liked you." Other than that, I was sold on Dinobot's role in the show.

My biggest disappointment with Kingdom is the confirmation that the Cybertron-based cast were all killed, thus rendering half of Earthrise kind of pointless. I had a theory that with the introduction of time-travel, the Autobots might have found a way to return to their time just before the apparent deaths of Elita and Co. and rescue them, since their plot ended on a cliffhanger. With their fates kind of ambiguous, it would have been a brilliant way to resolve that ending and the trilogy with all of the characters reuniting. The series had been really good at not wasting its cast, that it chose 'total annihilation' as the end of this part of the story is an underwhelming and unfortunate conclusion.

Ultimately, I enjoyed the WFC Trilogy. It had great ideas and brought together many different parts of the franchise's lore in interesting ways, even if it was let down a bit by the voice acting and structure. But overall a solid entry into Transformers history in support of one of the greatest toylines we've ever had. 'B' for the trilogy at whole and B+ for Kingdom itself.

Whifflefire wrote:My biggest disappointment with Kingdom is the confirmation that the Cybertron-based cast were all killed, thus rendering half of Earthrise kind of pointless. I had a theory that with the introduction of time-travel, the Autobots might have found a way to return to their time just before the apparent deaths of Elita and Co. and rescue them, since their plot ended on a cliffhanger. With their fates kind of ambiguous, it would have been a brilliant way to resolve that ending and the trilogy with all of the characters reuniting. The series had been really good at not wasting its cast, that it chose 'total annihilation' as the end of this part of the story is an underwhelming and unfortunate conclusion.

Probably just a selfish question that will never be answered..What Happened to Omega Supreme? I mean I was half expecting the bots that froze to death to come back once the Allspark was powered up. But since Omega was not part of that group, I guess we will never know. Also what about Shockwave and those who stayed behind with him? That explosion at the end of ER I guess was supposed to be one of those "Kill 'em all, and let Hasbro sort it out" moments Larry Ditillio used to talk about

Lastly, I had to pause it a couple times, but at the end the 1000 foot tall statues of Cog & Refracktor...did they basically just choose the "rando" from each faction to represent everyone who was lost in the conflict? "A Fitting Tribute"... I guess? At first I immediately thought back to Cog's sacrifice at the end of ER, and thought it was a little odd them giving him a statue like that. Basically, whatever it's meaning was, wasn't entirely clear.

Speaking of slightly improved humor, I may have just been in an overly tired state, but Wheeljack's "Well Pop my trunk!" line got a chuckle from me.

I liked the little joke about how he wouldve made a terrible Maximal, if only because it seems like the humor that Dinobot enjoys
Thats how he interacted with rattrap in the beast wars series, even up to his death in code of hero

Razorbeast88 wrote:I liked the little joke about how he wouldve made a terrible Maximal, if only because it seems like the humor that Dinobot enjoys
Thats how he interacted with rattrap in the beast wars series, even up to his death in code of hero

The thing is, we're never given any reason to believe that Dinobot and Primal in this series ever had the kind of relationship that would have warranted such nuanced banter between the two, making the humor behind that line feel unearned.

This show expects its viewers to already be familiar with the original BW series and how all of its characters behaved and interacted with each other, as if that somehow excuses this show from writing its new versions of the BW cast as their own characters without the audience needing to do additional homework in order to get everything that's onscreen in this show, never taking into consideration any new viewers who aren't already familiar with Beast Wars.

That's one of the same flaws as found in the live action remake of Aladdin, which similarly expected its own audience to already be familiar with the original animated movie and thus didn't explain everything that the original movie did feel the need to explain.

Sabrblade wrote:

Razorbeast88 wrote:I liked the little joke about how he wouldve made a terrible Maximal, if only because it seems like the humor that Dinobot enjoys
Thats how he interacted with rattrap in the beast wars series, even up to his death in code of hero

The thing is, we're never given any reason to believe that Dinobot and Primal in this series ever had the kind of relationship that would have warranted such nuanced banter between the two, making the humor behind that line feel unearned.

This show expects its viewers to already be familiar with the original BW series and how all of its characters behaved and interacted with each other, as if that somehow excuses this show from writing its new versions of the BW cast as their own characters without the audience needing to do additional homework in order to get everything that's onscreen in this show, never taking into consideration any new viewers who aren't already familiar with Beast Wars.

That's one of the same flaws as found in the live action remake of Aladdin, which similarly expected its own audience to already be familiar with the original animated movie and thus didn't explain everything that the original movie did feel the need to explain.

Ah, good point

Though I'm not sure they would've been able to include the proper explanations considering they were limited to the 6 episodes with each episode being 20ish minutes. Plus incorporating all the different characters and the plot.

But as you've been saying they could've done their own thing instead of bringing back the old without explanations

Razorbeast88 wrote:Though I'm not sure they would've been able to include the proper explanations considering they were limited to the 6 episodes with each episode being 20ish minutes. Plus incorporating all the different characters and the plot.

That's why I prefer to think of these as movies. The episodes don't do much to make it episodic, it is a continuous story throughout, so it is structurally more like a film. You're not going to have the same amount of build-up of a full television series as everything needs to be brought from point A to point B in about two hours, so the plot needs to focus on a single main goal, with a few minor detours. Each entry in the WFC Trilogy does pretty much that. Cyberverse was the opposite, where there each episode only had enough time to be a sideplot. When shows are properly episodic, featuring stand-alone main plots with world-building subplots, you get good small scale stories while gradually building up to epic ideas. This trilogy had no chance to accomplish the same feats as an actual television show, but adequately condensed the major beats of many familiar stories and wove them together to create something new, even if not so original. Things like Dinobot's arc played out here as best as they could had there been a Beast Wars movie remake.

Not a big one on throwing in thoughts on these series as I take them for what they are: entertainment. That said, the show series could have been half the length it was if not for the director's idea that ALLLLLLLL DDDDDIIIIIAAAAALLLLOOOOOOGGGGGUUUUUEEEEE SSSHHHHOOOUUULLLLDDDDD BEEEEEEEE................................................................................................................................................................................DDDRRRRAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNN OOOOOUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTT.

I skimmed the comments and someone said that Prime went "full Shatner". Heh. Pretty accurate, but the difference is that ALLLL the characters went full Shatner, so it wasn't the character, it was the directing. A nice, normal pace of speaking would have been appreciated, and they still could have gotten the drama across. That said, if they'd done that, I'm pretty sure the 6 episodes would have lasted a total of 10 minutes.

Overall, I found myself enjoying the story. The Dead Multiverse comment was interesting, meaning that there IS a multiverse and the other accepted versions of Transformers are probably out there in it. It would be an interesting twist to see a situation where, in order to defeat Unicron once and for all, ALL the versions of Optimus Prime had to assemble in one place. It would give HasTak a chance to refine and/or reintroduce other versions of Prime (RID, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, G1, G2, Beast Wars, Japanese Beast Wars, Neo, etc). Optimus Prime, despite the popularity of Bumblebee currently, is STILL the most popular Transformers character and a series joining ALL the Optimuses (Optimi? Optima? Stupid Latin interpretations...)- not the Primes, but just the Ops with updated toy technology would be interesting. It's like those posters that Dreamwave did back in the day with all the Ops and all the Megatrons. That could be entertaining...and a legitimately viable way to destroy Unicron once and for all. (If you want involvement of Primus, the end of this series has the possibility of Unicron crashing THIS particular Cybertron's dimension but Primus would still be recovering, thus needing the assemblage of Ops).

Just some side thoughts...overall, like I said, I enjoyed the watch. Blackarachnia's voice was almost spot on. Like others have said, BW Megs was horrible but only in that it was so different from what we are used to; it fit how they developed this character.

It was a good climax.

IMO...

Positives:

- Lovely colour palette and animation (when used), and it looked fine in 1080p on my old HD telly.

- The intro was short, but featured "wireframe", 80's styled CG. All of which ticked my TF/sci-fi boxes.

- Black Arachnia liked "the fembots" (which I was happy to see, for a more inclusive attitude towards our general population and, I'm ashamed to admit, because as a neanderthal male, I thought it was "hot", sorry...).

- Some good voice acting (at least in approximation to the original characters) for Ratrap, Black Arachnia, etc.

- Interesting use of both Nemesis and Galvatron as Unicron's heralds (something, I and many others, have, I'm sure, imagined for a long time).

- Musical score seemed functional and didn't detract from the show.

- Lots of fan-service (G1 and BW animals fighting each other, BW references, such as "Air Commander Starscream", etc).


Negatives:

- Awful voice acting for Optimus, etc (I...must...speak...wiiithhh...long...pausessssssss....").

- Muddy, indistinct sound mixing, such as indistinct voices (Soundwave, Nemesis computer, The Ark, etc), the music, sound effects and dialogue all being different volumes (currently requiring me to change the volume) and actors often mumbling their lines (requiring subtitles for me to understand what was said, at times).

- What the DICKENS were all of the Scorponok clones about?

- The BW bot modes didn't look like their recent toys. If Hasblo wanted the show to shoe-horn the Ark and many other toys into this show, why did they allow these "new" botmodes (however nice they may/may not look) to be used, when they don't look like the toys they're meant to promote?

- A confusing, convoluted "plot" with faaaaar too many mcguffins (I didn't understand how Rhinox magically fixed the Ark, why the dead universe helped everyone survive, etc).

- No point of using the Ark in bot mode (as the budget could have been used for other, more important things in the show).

- Far too many "faction switches" (just like the previous shows, characters seem to change allegiances at the drop off a hat and end up chatting amicably with an enemy that was trying to kill them brutally mere seconds previously).

- Hardly anyone actually transformed on-camera, which, arguably, is the (ahem) "money shot" of any given TF show.

Although this was the "best" of the trilogy's offerings, it could have been far better. Using the original/better voice actors, better sound mixing and voice recording (Soundwave, etc), a more streamlined plot, less mcguffins and better writing could have made this a contender. As it is, I enjoyed the recent "MOTU - Revelation" cartoon on Netflix more than this.

But then again, this IS a Hasblo production we're talking about here, so I'm not really surprised.

primalxconvoy wrote:- Lots of fan-service (G1 and BW animals fighting each other, BW references, such as "Air Commander Starscream", etc).

"Air Commander" is a G1 reference, it was Starscream's function in his original 1984 toy bio. The BW episode mentioning it was thanks to Ben Yee providing Starscream's toy bio to the episode's writer.

primalxconvoy wrote:- What the DICKENS were all of the Scorponok clones about?

Generic cannon fodder foot soldiers, just like all the Cog duplicates, all the Refraktor duplicates, all the extra Seekers, and more from the previous two seasons.

primalxconvoy wrote:- No point of using the Ark in bot mode (as the budget could have been used for other, more important things in the show).

It was to provide the Autobots with a quick victory against the Nemesis, wrapping up that battle fast so that all the Decepticons and Predacons could be rounded up and locked up aboard the Ark.

Sabrblade wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:- Lots of fan-service (G1 and BW animals fighting each other, BW references, such as "Air Commander Starscream", etc).

"Air Commander" is a G1 reference, it was Starscream's function in his original 1984 toy bio. The BW episode mentioning it was thanks to Ben Yee providing Starscream's toy bio to the episode's writer.

Yes, like I said, it was BW fan service.

primalxconvoy wrote:- What the DICKENS were all of the Scorponok clones about?

Generic cannon fodder foot soldiers, just like all the Cog duplicates, all the Refraktor duplicates, all the extra Seekers, and more from the previous two seasons.

Not really. Scorponok was never cloned cannon-fodder. In the previous Seige cartoons, the clones were usually recoloured. In this show, he wasn't.

primalxconvoy wrote:- No point of using the Ark in bot mode (as the budget could have been used for other, more important things in the show).

It was to provide the Autobots with a quick victory against the Nemesis, wrapping up that battle fast so that all the Decepticons and Predacons could be rounded up and locked up aboard the Ark.

There could have easily been other ways for this to happen. The only reason it was included was to promote the toy. Fair enough, but like I said, why weren't the BW character models closer to the recently released toys, due to similar, promotional reasons?

primalxconvoy wrote:Not really. Scorponok was never cloned cannon-fodder. In the previous Seige cartoons, the clones were usually recoloured. In this show, he wasn't.

Doesn't matter what color they were. They were cannon fodder meant to boost the Predacons' ranks in the same way all of the other duplicate generics were. No one said anything about cloning.