Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

In the cartoon (or any ancillary media from the G1 cartoon continuity), what would you say are Prime's weaknesses? I'm just making some character profiles, and Prime is the only one I find too difficult to work on. He isn't detached from his men, isn't prone to bouts of depression, feeling he isn't worthy (like Rodimus), never turns his back on the people, Cybertronian or otherwise, that he has vowed to help. He's a fantastic fighter, but one who would rather do anything than use his martial skill and the list goes ever on and on, heaping more praise on our beloved childhood hero.

So? What are his weaknesses? Any thoughts?

And don't say "he dies a lot". Just because he's a great fighter, doesn't mean he's the BEST fighter. A Decepticon like Megatron was built for fighting!

Damage to Prime, Roller or the trailer is felt by all three components.

Is that ever actually shown? I honestly don't remember. It's not like they used the Combat Deck that much anyway.

Still, thanks for that. Great help.

Hypercron Unus wrote:Is that ever actually shown? I honestly don't remember. It's not like they used the Combat Deck that much anyway.

Still, thanks for that. Great help.

Was in the Tech Spec and briefly touched on in the cartoon I think, but it was never a major point outside of maybe an episode or two, been awhile since I watched so could be off on that. Simon Furman used the idea again in Escalation back in 2006/7 for one battle then it was never mentioned again in that continuity either.

His one and only weakness is a bad guy on his knees begging for mercy

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:His one and only weakness is a bad guy on his knees begging for mercy

AKA Hubris

That is the only real weakness of the G1 cartoon Prime. His arrogance.

The G1 comic Prime however, is practically a poster child for Bipolar Disorder...

In the cartoon Optimus Prime had sense of honor that sometimes got the better of him. He was also compassionate to a fault sometimes plus he sometimes seemed to avoid to take some necessary military risks that were needed to taken.

In the all of the comics he suffered from crippling self doubt. Especially in the Marvel US and UK series after he came back as a Powermaster.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:His one and only weakness is a bad guy on his knees begging for mercy

Hubris?
arrogance?

You are aware that We’re talking about Optimus not Megatron?

I never saw anything in the character I would describe as you did, never really saw much in the way of overconfidence either, more along the lines of being over trusting

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:His one and only weakness is a bad guy on his knees begging for mercy

AKA Hubris

That is the only real weakness of the G1 cartoon Prime. His arrogance.

Since when is granting forgiveness or second chances considered arrogant?

OK, I get it if he thinks "I'm better than you and don't you forget it", but I haven't seen any of that in the original cartoon.

That speech wasn't about 'second chances' or 'granting forgiveness'.

It is commonly called a monologue. Typically associated with Villains, like Marvel's Doctor Doom. Prime was verbally toying with Megatron, instead of finishing the fight. Which he could have easily done before Hot Rod even arrived. He arrogantly assumed because he had the upper hand, the fight was over and therefore he had won. When the situation was reversed, Megs actually shot him several times before similarly gloating.

This was the attitude in The Movie, that got him killed.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote: When the situation was reversed, Megs actually shot him several times before similarly gloating.

There are about a dozen or so episodes of the G1 cartoon that say otherwise. Megs had Prime down for the count more than a few times and then paused to gloat long enough for Prime to recover and reverse the situation. If Prime has a failing it is the number of times he had let Megs go to fight another day (while Megs would always swear that he would be avenged...)- which was likely Prime's intention at Autobot City, but Megs followed through on his threats for a change.

It wasn't Prime's intention to gloat or monologue, it was Megatron who initiated the conversation in an attempt to forestall or reverse his defeat.

If there is a weakness on display here, it is Prime's gullibility in Megatron's false plea for mercy.

Omega_Abyss wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote: When the situation was reversed, Megs actually shot him several times before similarly gloating.

There are about a dozen or so episodes of the G1 cartoon that say otherwise.

Irrelevant by the time of The Movie. This was it. The final confrontation. Megatron knew that and fought to that end. The whole "plea for mercy" was to stall Prime for time, so he could reach the gun. Feign surrender and Prime just kept talking, he arrogantly believed Megatron was "defeated" and that was the end. I doubt Prime had any intention of pulling that trigger, regardless of his "one shall stand, one shall fall" line.

But the fight was not over, as Megatron demonstrated.

In contrast, this was the parallel response of a less arrogant, more competent Leader:

Gullibility, more like stupidity on Primes part.

He had absolutely no reason to believe that Megatron was being sincere, in fact he had every reason to doubt the situation and should have followed through


AllNewSuperRobot
You seem to be contradicting yourself here, if you doubt Prime ever intended to pull the trigger then how can his behaviors and actions be considered arrogant Or hubris?
If he never intended to pull the trigger how could it be that he considered the fight over and that he was on top?

Sorry but I can’t put any faith in that analysis, Prime was not giving a monologue he was just acting as he always did.....With hope for a better solution. No monologue , Just a reply to the request

Like you I don’t believe Optimus was ever truly intended to kill Megatron.He May have been willing to do it if there was no other choice but it wasn’t his first choice and given the opportunity would have been looking and hopping for a way to stop him without killing him, Megatrons deception gave him that chance

Optimus did not think he had the piper hand, he thought he had the perfect opportunity to end the war without any more killing

And that’s what Megatrons plan was, to use Primes “Overdeveloped” sense of hope against him

There is no contradiction. The difference is between thought and deed. In his actions, his demeanour during that moment, there was arrogance. Whether or not we believe he would have pulled the trigger or not is neither here nor there.

Prime considered the fight over, that he was on top, because he had the gun and Megatron was on his knees. That last exchange was 100% monologue. Picture the words coming from the mouth of Cobra Commander, Mumm-Ra or Dr. Doom and the tone & intent are no different.

Remember also it was Prime that threw down the gauntlet of that battle. "One shall stand.." was his words and in that respect, while Megatron was backed into a corner. I think Megatron took that to heart far more than Optimus. Megatron went on the offensive to a far greater extent than either had before. It is that classic hero trope, the difference between 'defeat' and 'kill'. Optimus despite his words, was fighting for the former, as he always did before. Megatron was fighting for his survival and the latter.

Objectively, Prime's hubris killed him in that fight before Hot Rod even arrived on the scene. He was never going to win, because he didn't appreciate the stakes had changed.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There is no contradiction. The difference is between thought and deed. In his actions, his demeanour during that moment, there was arrogance. Whether or not we believe he would have pulled the trigger or not is neither here nor there.

Prime considered the fight over, that he was on top, because he had the gun and Megatron was on his knees. That last exchange was 100% monologue. Picture the words coming from the mouth of Cobra Commander, Mumm-Ra or Dr. Doom and the tone & intent are no different.

Remember also it was Prime that threw down the gauntlet of that battle. "One shall stand.." was his words and in that respect, while Megatron was backed into a corner. I think Megatron took that to heart far more than Optimus. Megatron went on the offensive to a far greater extent than either had before. It is that classic hero trope, the difference between 'defeat' and 'kill'. Optimus despite his words, was fighting for the former, as he always did before. Megatron was fighting for his survival and the latter.

Objectively, Prime's hubris killed him in that fight before Hot Rod even arrived on the scene. He was never going to win, because he didn't appreciate the stakes had changed.

By that point in time Prime had already suffered enough damage that even he may have considered fatal, even with Megatron on his knees Prime would have had to been wondering how mimics linger he could continue fighting. Prime hoped the fight over was over, that Megatron would no longer resist......but he didn’t believe he was on top

Maybe Primes ego got a bit of the best of him, getting in a small jab at megatron , similar to what we saw in the pilot (calling him yesterday’s model) but y th gars about all, Certainly not a monologue to the degree that you have described.Did Prime drop a “gauntlet”, or was it more sn acknowledgement that it was highly likely that one of them would die? Same goes for his words when he landed at the city....” Megatron must be stopped, no matter the cost“

Just about everybody always said this was proof that Optimus intended to kill megatron, but I always saw it as him saying he knew he would have to Sacrifice himself if he stood a chance at stopping megatron

His hope to end things with out having to kill anyone is what got Prime killed

If there ever was a poster child for hubris: gloating at inappropriate times, arrogance in his own self-worth bordering on what would in a later incarnation look very much like megalomania, it was Megatron.

By contrast... what you call a "less arrogant, more competent leader" image of Rodimus out of context acting more in line with a hypothetical "evil Decepticon" than a "heroic Autobot" speaking from a within the confines of the given archetypes. This might be off-topic, but the "Chosen One" meant to 'light their darkest hour...' as the main protagonist probably should not be executing surrendered enemies. But then I don't have the context here.

I am curious though, what were the indicators (in-universe) that the stakes had indeed changed? As far as I can tell, as far as Primes and Megs should have been concerned this was just another Tuesday in their 6+ million year war. A war that had seen countless chances for each one to kill their other and claim victory. Why was Megs suddenly willing to pull the trigger now?

Omega_Abyss wrote:I am curious though, what were the indicators (in-universe) that the stakes had indeed changed? As far as I can tell, as far as Primes and Megs should have been concerned this was just another Tuesday in their 6+ million year war. A war that had seen countless chances for each one to kill their other and claim victory. Why was Megs suddenly willing to pull the trigger now?

The cynical answer is, when removed from the moral constraints of kids TV, via The Movie, the de-fanged Decepticons were allowed to demonstrate their full potential. Hence why the realistically ill-equipped Autobots, that were entirely kept alive but plot armour in the show, were slain in droves by the rightfully powerful and dangerous trained warriors.

The stakes had changed with Prime's entire approach. In his only impressive G1 scene, he single-handedly plows through the majority of the Decepticon ranks before basically stating it is 'do or die' time to his nemesis. Who is equally only ever this impressive in G1, through his actions within The Movie. You can't expect Megatron to hesitate in pulling the trigger in that scenario.

Look to their dialogue during the fight too. Megatron is really going for it. Prime isn't. Because Prime believes he will just 'win' and that will be that. Business as usual. That is arrogant.

I could look at many of the responses to this discussion above and assume several people seem to see G1 Prime as nigh faultless. A bit of rose-tinted glasses, at play. Which in context to later iterations, is ridiculous. In the grand scale of the entire mythos, he was the most ineffectual Prime there was. This was down to his own hubris.
The others all by and large grew and adapted to the challenges around them. Many even reclaimed their home world and/or ended their own Great War. Two things G1 Prime never did. Strictly speaking he couldn't even beat his Nemesis. As even without Unicron, Megatron survived the final battle.

Prime's weaknesses were made worse by his circumstances. He was surrounded by Earth life that needed protecting. He could've fought more effectively on a different world with no indigenous life.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Omega_Abyss wrote:I am curious though, what were the indicators (in-universe) that the stakes had indeed changed? As far as I can tell, as far as Primes and Megs should have been concerned this was just another Tuesday in their 6+ million year war. A war that had seen countless chances for each one to kill their other and claim victory. Why was Megs suddenly willing to pull the trigger now?

The cynical answer is, when removed from the moral constraints of kids TV, via The Movie, the de-fanged Decepticons were allowed to demonstrate their full potential. Hence why the realistically ill-equipped Autobots, that were entirely kept alive but plot armour in the show, were slain in droves by the rightfully powerful and dangerous trained warriors.

The stakes had changed with Prime's entire approach. In his only impressive G1 scene, he single-handedly plows through the majority of the Decepticon ranks before basically stating it is 'do or die' time to his nemesis. Who is equally only ever this impressive in G1, through his actions within The Movie. You can't expect Megatron to hesitate in pulling the trigger in that scenario.

Look to their dialogue during the fight too. Megatron is really going for it. Prime isn't. Because Prime believes he will just 'win' and that will be that. Business as usual. That is arrogant.

I could look at many of the responses to this discussion above and assume several people seem to see G1 Prime as nigh faultless. A bit of rose-tinted glasses, at play. Which in context to later iterations, is ridiculous. In the grand scale of the entire mythos, he was the most ineffectual Prime there was. This was down to his own hubris.
The others all by and large grew and adapted to the challenges around them. Many even reclaimed their home world and/or ended their own Great War. Two things G1 Prime never did. Strictly speaking he couldn't even beat his Nemesis. As even without Unicron, Megatron survived the final battle.

When Prime single-handedly plows through the Decepticon ranks, he damages/disables them, but doesn't kill. That's a difference between being the yardstick of what a "heroic Autobot" is supposed to be, and an "evil Decepticon". Frankly, it should have been business as usual. There are a few examples of dead Autobots prior to Optimus arriving on the battlefield, so I can accept that the Decepticons were 'defanged' as you put it. But there is no indication that Prime had first or even second-hand knowledge that Autobots were being killed up to that point. I could agree that it Prime's lack of killer instinct is foolish or even stupid-- if he HAD that knowledge. But there is nothing in his actions that says he suffered from an abundance of arrogance to me; particularly when we look at the other figure in this example.

Looking at this example between Megs and Prime and calling out Prime for arrogance/hubris is a bit like taking a scene between William Shatner and Sir Patrick Stewart and solely critiquing Stewart's acting technique. I realize the thread is about Prime's weaknesses and I agree he has many flaws. I just don't see how hesitating to pull the trigger translates to him having an inflated sense of self-worth. maybe you are using a different definition of arrogance than I am.

As far as Optimus being the most ineffective Prime in the entire mythos, I have two words for you: Nominus Prime.

Prime came only due to Blaster's message. Whether any Autobot had died or not, by that point, he was never informed. Yet his comments, "No matter the cost" and "One shall stand" indicate that by attacking Autobot City, Megatron had on this occasion, gone too far???

When you actually think about it, there seems little context to an assault on an Autobot base that would indicate a final confrontation was due. How many times was the Ark attacked without real consequence?
Iconic lines as they are, they do seem out of place, in retrospect.

Ah, I see. To clarify, he is the most ineffective Optimus Prime, in the mythos. Optimus Primal is still the most effective, as he single-handedly ends his war, his nemesis and saves the entire Cybertronian race.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Omega_Abyss wrote:I am curious though, what were the indicators (in-universe) that the stakes had indeed changed? As far as I can tell, as far as Primes and Megs should have been concerned this was just another Tuesday in their 6+ million year war. A war that had seen countless chances for each one to kill their other and claim victory. Why was Megs suddenly willing to pull the trigger now?

You would think that if the stakes had truly changed to the degree you describe , Prime would have actually actually and directly killed one of those guys he “plowed” when he arrived

Primes dialog and approach during the fight is exactly in character as he was most of the time, outside of the pilot it wasn’t like Prime to go tit fir tat insults or bravado in a fight.It wasn’t arrogance or even confidence, it was taking the fight most seriously and remaining as calm as possible do as to be able to lookin for openings that he might be able to take advantage of

And you can certainly point out all the faults of Optimus, I most likely wouldn’t disagree with most of what you have to say, but in all honesty as far as the G1 US cartoon continuity goes we only really had two leaders to choose from, and Rodimus inherited more than he accomplished on his own

You're talking at cross purposes here. Prime changed the stakes, later, with Megatron. As far as he knew the Decepticons were simply invading Autobot City. A standard plan. So there was no need to kill the Cons he drove through. They were merely in his way to Megatron. Which also points to his hubris. If he could do that the entire time, why didn't he do it sooner? He chose not to? Because the threat wasn't deemed worthy of his direct attention??

At the end of the day, he made a death threat to Megatron. Threw down that gauntlet and then didn't think he needed to follow through with it. Perhaps he thought Megatron would back down from such a threat? That he would "retreat" as he always did? That, cost him.


In terms of the cartoon, Rodimus Prime inherited The Matrix (which did more for him than it ever did for Prime) and the rest he earned on his own. Prime had lost Cybertron. His entire faction were relegated to three outposts. Rodimus regained Cybertron (after the Decepticons fled Unicron) and never lost it again, while he was leader*. Never mind he defeated Galvatron and destroyed Unicron. So I don't see how he 'inherited' any win?

*I thought to add that, should anyone try to pedantically mention The Rebirth. Rodimus wasn't leader then, guess who was??

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:You're talking at cross purposes here. Prime changed the stakes, later, with Megatron. As far as he knew the Decepticons were simply invading Autobot City. A standard plan. So there was no need to kill the Cons he drove through. They were merely in his way to Megatron. Which also points to his hubris. If he could do that the entire time, why didn't he do it sooner? He chose not to? Because the threat wasn't deemed worthy of his direct attention??

Your contradiction your self now.
If he felt there was no need to kill the decepticons he ran through, if he felt it was just a “standard plan” there was no need for the opening declaration when he arrived at the city, no need to “drop the Gauntlet” as you put it.....and certainly no need to raise the stakes himself

And that wasn’t the first time he took on a group of decepticons, I remember him doing something similar in the first few episodes, in “Divide and conquer” he did pretty much the same thing, But without the aerial Display
,
He made death threat , he was just acknowledging the possibility of death as an outcome for one of them, again “no mater the cost” = the cost of his own life likely.And there’s no way Prime thought Megatron would back down or retreat from his words alone, Perhaps after the fight but not before

Hubris,Arrogance, This line of thinking has more holes in it than the plot

In the cartoon, Rodimus Prime regained Cybertron threw the Matrix not his own actions, it was the matrix that saved the day after Unicron ran the decepticons off world

And sure he held his own with Galvatron certainly impressive , but he was near dead the when he reached out for the Matrix.....which empowered him, so his defeat of Galvatron is again credited to the Matrix and not him

And certainly the matrix did more for Rodimus, he was the “chosen one”, an other Inheritance not earned on his own.Talk about rose colored glasses, No matrix no win, his win was all Inheritance not earned

As to optimus, I don’t deny his losses, and there were many, but how easy do you think it is to take a group of civilian workers and maintain a civil war against an enemy force designed and created for warfare for over 9 million years?Its s wonder the Autobots weren’t wiped out within a few years

maintaining “The status quo” (more of less) as long as he did is a credit to Optimus that very few credit him with

*I thought to add that, should anyone try to pedantically mention The Rebirth. Rodimus wasn't leader then, guess who was??

But why bother...it was pointless
His losse was designed by a higher power

And it’s not like I’m trying to say how was the better leader.....that’s something you are desperately trying to do

They both had flaws.......but Rodimus didn’t earn his way to leadership as you are saying, it could be argued that it was handed to him with a silver spoon

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:As far as he knew the Decepticons were simply invading Autobot City. A standard plan. So there was no need to kill the Cons he drove through. They were merely in his way to Megatron. Which also points to his hubris. If he could do that the entire time, why didn't he do it sooner? He chose not to? Because the threat wasn't deemed worthy of his direct attention??

FWIW, it might be worth noting that in "Heavy Metal War" from the first season of the G1 cartoon, Megatron states that Prime's only weakness is his 'overdeveloped sense of honor'.

As far as Prime's so-called hubris or arrogance I think you are seeing what you want to see. Another way of looking at it might be that Prime sought to deliver a "headshot" to the Decepticon army and morale by defeating their leader. Something he had proven he could do time and time again on an even playing field. Take out the leadership and the Decepticon army (under Starscream) would likely fall into disarray and quickly retreat. This is a very sound tactic used countless times in history. Tactically, it was the quickest and most efficient means of stemming any loss of life. So, plowing through Decepticons is simply the quickest way to go about this and it serves to protect his Autobots. Also, he could be aware of the stakes of possibly losing and still not intend to necessarily kill Megatron.

Is it foolish? Possibly. Its a gamble to be sure, but taking risks is part and parcel with being a successful military leader; but it's not hubris when Prime is arguably the most powerful Autobot present (Grimlock notwithstanding) with the best chance of defeating Megatron. Besides, it's not like a lack of self-confidence on Prime's part was going to save the day.

Was it arrogant to simply assume he would win? It might have been, but his dialogue: "...No matter the cost." and "One shalll stand... one shall fall." gives the impression he was aware of the possibility of failure and it might mean that his spark could be extinguished. He understood it was a risky tactic and he accepted that risk. There was no arrogance or hubris in his decision making. If there was any arrogance (besides Megatron of course) it was Hot Rod attempting to wrestle the blaster away from Megatron and expecting it to work out in his favor.

You see, my jumping on point to G1 was The Movie. So I don't have the sentimentality for Season One and Two. So when it comes to seeing what I want to see, I only have the evidence presented within the context of The Movie. I don't have the exchange in episode 16 to colour my perceptions of what I was watching in the moment. To me, Prowl was "the one with smoking eyes", Ironhide was that red guy, put down at Megatron's feet and Prime died by his own making, because he couldn't finish a fight he started.