The Energon Pub

In Galvatron's Spotlight issue, Galvatron references a Cybertron before / without factions. Indeed, I can't find any Autobot faction symbols in this issue's flashbacks, although we do know that there was a Prime (I think the general consensus now is that this is Nova Prime).

In Megatron: Origin issue #3, we see that Sentinel Prime is the head of the security forces (i.e. the Autobots). We also learn that Sentinel Prime is answerable to the Senate and that he must follow their orders, as an order from the Senate means that Sentinel Prime has to release Soundwave.

What I'm trying to ascertain is what [Nova] Prime's position was during the time of the first Ark's launching. If, as Galvatron suggests, this period in history was before factions existed, then surely there would be no security forces (or, at least, no Autobot branding). What, therefore, did the Primes prior to such factions actually do? Were they still answerable to the Senate? Were they just figureheads of society (as Optimus uses these words in his own Spotlight, although in this instance they may still refer to Primes in charge of Autobots )? Were they they head of anything if Autobots didn't yet exist?

Maybe I'm asking questions we can't yet answer but I'm interested to hear thoughts as maybe I've missed some information or even mis-interpreted what information there is.

I think the two issues were snapshots into 2 different eras of Cybertronian history.

Think Nova Prime must have been the ruler or leader of Cybertron. We read in the Prime Spotlight that Omega Supreme disagreed with his philosophy of Expansion but couldnt do anything about it and he only did something about Monstructor after Nove Prime disappeared.

After his disappearance something must have happened to re-organize the government and usher in a democratic Senate with the Prime designation heading the security forces. Possibly, the fact that their leader had disappeared without a planned successor.

Also, I dont believe these were Autobots as we know them now. I believe the symbol that is shown is emblematic of the Cyberton government and not a faction yet.

Therefore, I believe when Megatron starts the war the Senate and the government falls and the remnants of the security forces become the Autobots and the Prime designation returns to its former leadership role.

What Id like to know is if Nova Prime was a Matrix bearer did he leave it back on Cyberton before he went on the Ark mission?

So, in some way, the Prime designation must have been given a new position in the Cybertronian hierarchy during the goverment reshuffle? That's entirely plausible.

As for Nova Prime's Matrix, who knows? I'd like to think he took it with him and that it was corrupted by the Dead Universe, allowing Nova Prime to return as Nemesis Prime with that Dark Matrix the Universe toy came with. Maybe then at some indeterminate point in the future it could be restored and would allow Hot Rod to become Rodimus Prime.

Ahh i love these posts, we need more of them. Always fun reads.

SO many spotlights, so many issues, hard to wrap your head around whats what sometimes

I suspect we haven´t heard the last of Nova Prime.

Like Gandalf said:

"This is the deep breath before the dive."

Now that i'm thinking about it, with this being furman who had a hand in G2 if i'm not mistaken then here is my logic on the primes.

Before factions, before the start of a great war, before Megatron and Optimus; there was a council of 13.

This council of 13 was derived impart from legend and impart from fact as there religious artifacts are as proof to the time they long forgot.

Primes were designated as the head of these councils, and the first council is quite possibly comprised of the original 13 transformers. One of them were first to house the matrix after all.

Again grasping at straws from G2, and keeping as far from unicron as possible, If the Leige Maximo was among the original 13 as the direct opposition to the Prime line then we have a Primus established checks and balance hierarchy.

At some point there may have even developed a form of cast system regulating those of spark fit to replace the council and models resembling there construction could be royalty of a sort.

In G2 Megatron was stated to have decended from Liege Maximo's line, making it only reasonable for his views to oppose those of the last two Primes. I think Nova Prime's equivalent tron is being played by Galvatron, though they may not have been on kill or be killed terms.

As time progressed those who would be later called decepticon would fit the bill of degerates not worthy of spark to be linked to the council. The aristocracratic mechanoids not accustomed to harsh work would become a more cassual vehicle and mech relying on automation rather than there lower bretheren; a society of auto-bots. So slowly the political power struggle eliminates those who would one vorn take the name Decepticon.

There champion is Megatron.

MYoung23 wrote:I think the two issues were snapshots into 2 different eras of Cybertronian history.

Think Nova Prime must have been the ruler or leader of Cybertron. We read in the Prime Spotlight that Omega Supreme disagreed with his philosophy of Expansion but couldnt do anything about it and he only did something about Monstructor after Nove Prime disappeared.

After his disappearance something must have happened to re-organize the government and usher in a democratic Senate with the Prime designation heading the security forces. Possibly, the fact that their leader had disappeared without a planned successor.

Also, I dont believe these were Autobots as we know them now. I believe the symbol that is shown is emblematic of the Cyberton government and not a faction yet.

Therefore, I believe when Megatron starts the war the Senate and the government falls and the remnants of the security forces become the Autobots and the Prime designation returns to its former leadership role.

What Id like to know is if Nova Prime was a Matrix bearer did he leave it back on Cyberton before he went on the Ark mission?

That was pretty much my thinking on the whole topic too. Cybertron was under some kind of Dictatorship/Kingship with Nova Prime the Dictator/King. When he went Walkabouts to parts unknown, the Senate was created to take his place as rulers of Cybertron, they elected Sentinel Prime to be the leader of their Armed Forces/Police Force.
Enter Megatron to shake everything up, and the Senate's Armed Forces became the Autobots, and Megatron's followers the Decepticons. The Senate is disbanded under planet-wide Civil War. And Optimus Prime is chosen as the Leader of a Faction-ed Army. (By who/how, is what I would like to know, and I doubt that Megatron: Origins will delve into the matter)

I like your take though AxiomScion, and I hope that Furman does work the Leige Maximo into the IDW-verse, he was a very interesting concept.

This is a great discussion.

So, do the preceding posts mean that many of you believe that IDW's Optimus Prime has no matrix within him? What, then, is the significance of of Optimus's vision/communion with Nova Prime in Escalation? Surely there must be some inherited something (matrix, passwords, secret handshake, whatever) from the predecessor in order to become a Prime.

Also, while I like the idea of a Senate in the politics of Cybertron, I find it unlikely that it only existed during the tenure of Sentinel Prime. So there's always been a council of some sort, right? Council of 13, Council of the Ancients, Coucil of Elders, and so on. Why not some form of Senate throughout the history as well? It could be more like a legislative body than a judicial or executive body.

Now, a question. Is IDW's Cybertron divided into City-States? I recognize city names, like Kaon, from other continuities, but to what divisions are the Senaotrs representing?

Novacron wrote:This is a great discussion.

So, do the preceding posts mean that many of you believe that IDW's Optimus Prime has no matrix within him? What, then, is the significance of of Optimus's vision/communion with Nova Prime in Escalation? Surely there must be some inherited something (matrix, passwords, secret handshake, whatever) from the predecessor in order to become a Prime.

Also, while I like the idea of a Senate in the politics of Cybertron, I find it unlikely that it only existed during the tenure of Sentinel Prime. So there's always been a council of some sort, right? Council of 13, Council of the Ancients, Coucil of Elders, and so on. Why not some form of Senate throughout the history as well? It could be more like a legislative body than a judicial or executive body.

Now, a question. Is IDW's Cybertron divided into City-States? I recognize city names, like Kaon, from other continuities, but to what divisions are the Senaotrs representing?

All good questions, but I cannot answer any of them with fact, only guesswork, as IDW have not released enough information about Cybertron's History. Yet.

That's correct, there's not a lot of information to say for certain, however we can, for the moment, make an educated guess that Cybertron is divided into some states given Megatron's dialogue in his mini-series. The Senators must have some defined jurisdiction.

As for the Matrix, I think it was confirmed somewhere (by Furman?) that IDW' Optimus Prime carries no Matrix, despite the glow in his chest seen in Stormbringer. Obviously, though, he does have some link to previous Primes given his little trip in Escalation. A programming carry-over, perhaps? Or maybe he does have a Matrix but rather than being a glowing bauble it's instead a map of circuitry or some such.

Leonardo wrote:That's correct, there's not a lot of information to say for certain, however we can, for the moment, make an educated guess that Cybertron is divided into some states given Megatron's dialogue in his mini-series. The Senators must have some defined jurisdiction.

As for the Matrix, I think it was confirmed somewhere (by Furman?) that IDW' Optimus Prime carries no Matrix, despite the glow in his chest seen in Stormbringer. Obviously, though, he does have some link to previous Primes given his little trip in Escalation. A programming carry-over, perhaps? Or maybe he does have a Matrix but rather than being a glowing bauble it's instead a map of circuitry or some such.

So no matrix in Optimus, huh? Okay, I can deal with that. But do you think that means he NEVER had it, that he ascending to "Primehood" as he is now, not having had the "matrix upgrade" that we saw in DW's War Within? I know I've gotten pretty burned out on the whole matrix-as-the-focal-point thing, so it's good to have some variation like IDW's giving us, but I still can't help but expect some continutiy from TF reality to reality. I mean, it's been hard enough to accept that Galvatron is now NOT Megatron, right?

Ah, now I don't really have a problem with Galvatron not being Megatron. I'm really enjoying it.

As for the Matrix, I don't know whether Optimus ever had it. I think it's a safe bet that Nova Prime (or the Prime from Galvatron's spotlight, anyway). Whether it was left behind on Cybertron to be passed to the next Prime or whether Nova took it with him and it was consumed by the Dead Universe is anyone's guess!

Yeah, the IDW Galvatron is growing on me. I'm just glad he's not stark-raving mad like the G1 animated series one.

Also, Leo, I liked your idea of Nova Prime having a tainted matrix cause him to come back as a Nemesis Prime. Best idea I've heard yet to justify such a character.

Novacron wrote:So no matrix in Optimus, huh? Okay, I can deal with that. But do you think that means he NEVER had it, that he ascending to "Primehood" as he is now, not having had the "matrix upgrade" that we saw in DW's War Within? I know I've gotten pretty burned out on the whole matrix-as-the-focal-point thing, so it's good to have some variation like IDW's giving us, but I still can't help but expect some continutiy from TF reality to reality. I mean, it's been hard enough to accept that Galvatron is now NOT Megatron, right?

What's got me guessing is that we saw Optimus Prime in Spotlight Megatron #3 in his WWi style form...
Guess he doesn't get an upgrade, and who knows how he was selected Autobot leader. I highly doubt Megatron Origins will delve into it at all, it's too big a story, too important a story to be briefly cameo'ed at the end of a different Series.

Yes, good point, although in Megatron: Origin Optimus doesn't have his faceplate, does he?

i_amtrunks wrote:

Novacron wrote:So no matrix in Optimus, huh? Okay, I can deal with that. But do you think that means he NEVER had it, that he ascending to "Primehood" as he is now, not having had the "matrix upgrade" that we saw in DW's War Within? I know I've gotten pretty burned out on the whole matrix-as-the-focal-point thing, so it's good to have some variation like IDW's giving us, but I still can't help but expect some continutiy from TF reality to reality. I mean, it's been hard enough to accept that Galvatron is now NOT Megatron, right?

What's got me guessing is that we saw Optimus Prime in Spotlight Megatron #3 in his WWi style form...
Guess he doesn't get an upgrade, and who knows how he was selected Autobot leader. I highly doubt Megatron Origins will delve into it at all, it's too big a story, too important a story to be briefly cameo'ed at the end of a different Series.

Oh, right. Good point. Okay, I'm starting to get comfy with the big picture here. It's starting to sound more and more like a twisted matrix story, although that's already been done before...

I may have some theoretical speculation

suppose there are 12 major citystates in all of cyberton and each has an elder/senater/coucil member of some sore. The Prime could be the head of these councils. Having a religious boble and dounting physical prowess though no teritory of his own. This grouping could break down into each having there own advisers, head of security or what have you.

I'm guessing NovaPrime took the matrix with. In his absence SentinelPrime was selected as the new Prime. Don't ask how but perhaps a confermation through a data link with VectorSigma or a knowlege data disk was emparted (ala WWI besides the matrix) I'm not certain if there is a "matrix flame" in the IDW verse or VecSig for that matter but seeing AlphaTrion could substanciate the later of the two.
Either way, Optimus will likely be initiated the same way SentinelPrime was. That is unless Megs leaves him for dead in some origin story for A-3 to go guru over.

Sounds pretty good. I could definitely see Prime(s) being chosen without a matrix present. Seems like stand-up characters of Prime-potential are in short enough supply that they really stand out when they come along.

Your number of senators sounds reasonable, though I'm not sure if I see the Prime as the head of the Senate. Seems like the Senate would exist as a seperate power from Prime, so that no one could dictate the way Nova Prime supposedly did. Also, do you think each City State would have smaller governing councils seperate from their Senator for the sake of local matters?

As to Prime's powers of state, is he the head of an army or just a global police force (if there's a difference these days)?

AxiomScion wrote:I may have some theoretical speculation

suppose there are 12 major citystates in all of cyberton and each has an elder/senater/coucil member of some sore. The Prime could be the head of these councils. Having a religious boble and dounting physical prowess though no teritory of his own. This grouping could break down into each having there own advisers, head of security or what have you.

I'm guessing NovaPrime took the matrix with. In his absence SentinelPrime was selected as the new Prime. Don't ask how but perhaps a confermation through a data link with VectorSigma or a knowlege data disk was emparted (ala WWI besides the matrix) I'm not certain if there is a "matrix flame" in the IDW verse or VecSig for that matter but seeing AlphaTrion could substanciate the later of the two.
Either way, Optimus will likely be initiated the same way SentinelPrime was. That is unless Megs leaves him for dead in some origin story for A-3 to go guru over.

Sounds very plausible. I especially like the idea about a data link with Vector Sigma.

Not sure about the Senate/Prime idea, the feeling I got from the Megatron origins series was more that the Senate were the power, and that Sentinel Prime was more like their General, in charge of the armed forces/Police Force, but not actually in charge as such, he does as the Senate tells him to.

Once Megatron abolishes the Senate in his coup however, only the Prime (Optimus?) is left, making him leader by default.

Leonardo wrote:Yes, good point, although in Megatron: Origin Optimus doesn't have his faceplate, does he?

I'd have to re-read it and have a very good look at it to tell you, as the only decent pic of Origins #3 featuring Prime I can find is this one.

Great theories. We really need more to fully understand the whats and wherefores of this, but I am sure you guys must be on the right track.

I have to agree, I love reading these theories on IDW continuity and characters!

tigertracks 24 wrote:Great theories. We really need more to fully understand the whats and wherefores of this, but I am sure you guys must be on the right track.

I have to agree, I love reading these theories on IDW continuity and characters!

Here here, main point to remember, they are totally revamping the background but still keeping alot of the core ideas the same, and as its in the initial stages of course its easy to shrug it off as it doesnt fit in with our comfort zone of what we know.

For all those old enough to remember reading legacy of unicron back in 1988 and knowing there was a tranformer inside cybertron and the matrix was his essence....

Sure this seems so normal now, but back then it through what we thought we knew about TF history out the windows with the quintessons creating the TFs in cartoon lore.

I'm fully agreed now that this IDW plot direction is good as it does mean ANYTHING can happen in the story as all bets are off and i can no longer dismiss an idea as

"oh he's megatron from the future"
or
"he has the matrix"
or
"he gets killed in 2006"

Yeah its changing the established background for some of my fave characters perhaps, but everytime furman has done this before it has been a good thing.

Be patient i say

Oh and to whomever said it about 12 city states, good theory as it could tie into the 13 (if they exist) and that all 12 originals on cybertron each started there own city state on TFs explaining why some regions (vos & tarn) produced criminals that would become decepticons as they all originated from less than perfect originals like liege maximo and the fallen.

Just a thought...

skyshadowprimus wrote:
Oh and to whomever said it about 12 city states, good theory as it could tie into the 13 (if they exist) and that all 12 originals on cybertron each started there own city state on TFs explaining why some regions (vos & tarn) produced criminals that would become decepticons as they all originated from less than perfect originals like liege maximo and the fallen.

Just a thought...

Co-incidence, I think not...

Great point, if Furman is going to work in the Leige (I sure hope he is) then this would be a great little 'nod' to the Original 13.

Reading through this thread has gotten me thinking about alot of the questions I've been having about the backgrounds. Now I'm not as read up on IDW as alot of you guys seems to be, I have been catching up as I have read the first two volumes of WWI, and the Megatron: Origins series. So I'll try and add my two cents.

In regards to Prime and how this position relates to the senate I was thinking that it may be possible that he acts as a kind of Speaker like in a Parliamentary system. Or perhaps maybe like the vice-president in the US Congressional system? He could play a role as a mediator on discussions and perhaps only has a chance to speak out/vote when there is a deadlock.

Now I've been thinking as to how Sentinel Prime seems to be the commander of the armed forces/police in MEgatron: Origins. I think it could be likely that the senate has existed through out most of Cybertron's history, but with this there could be some sort of political rivalry. Like if Nova Prime was a dictator/king as some people think it may be possible that the senate could of resented his hold on power and desire more for themselves. Now when he suddenly disappears there could be a temporary power gap that they moved to fill quickly, but knowing that the position of Prime cannot be discarded out of hand they instead try to undermine it's position and change its focus. So this could lead to Sentinel Prime being the next Prime after Nova, but due to the manipulation of the Senate the position has lost much of it's political power.

A third option I've been considering can be that Prime has always been a military position, and considering that Prime commands the army means he has a considerable weight of power at his disposal, as in he has all the guns or most of them. Now I'm not saying that this means many Prime's in the past have threatened to use their command over the military to effect political change when they saw fit. Instead it may just be that a Senate carefully guarding it's power may be a little paranoid and given Prime more say given his control over the military.

But like I said, I'm still playing catch up so I may be totally out to lunch. If anyone wants to suggest some good reading feel free to PM with me with them instead of filling up space here with unrelated responses.

Not meaning to have a go at you or anything, but the WWi stuff published by DW has no relation to the IDW stories, so everything that happened in both those books bears no consequence to the Megatron origins book, the Spotlights, Stormbringer or the -tion main series. Just so you know.

Wodicus wrote:Like if Nova Prime was a dictator/king as some people think it may be possible that the senate could of resented his hold on power and desire more for themselves. Now when he suddenly disappears there could be a temporary power gap that they moved to fill quickly, but knowing that the position of Prime cannot be discarded out of hand they instead try to undermine it's position and change its focus. So this could lead to Sentinel Prime being the next Prime after Nova, but due to the manipulation of the Senate the position has lost much of it's political power.

This I like, and seeing that Ratbat is a Senator, I think it's highly probable that something like this went down, if the Prime was the Dictator/King beforehand.

i_amtrunks wrote:I'd have to re-read it and have a very good look at it to tell you, as the only decent pic of Origins #3 featuring Prime I can find is this one.

Blast, I can't view that image at work but the panel I was thinking of was on the page where Sentinel Prime said something like, "This is a great loss but this is no tragedy". I remember there being a panel with Bumblebee and Cliffjumper (and Hubcap?) and below them a panel showing Alpha Trion, Elita-1 and who I thought was Optimus (or whatever he was called then). I can't quite remember without the comic to hand, though.

Still, some interesting theories here. I like the idea of the city states being anod or even tying into the Original 13.