The Energon Pub

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 6:00 am**

Referencing now to the Beast Wars episode 'The Agenda'.

G1 Megatron claims in his message that he's aware Transwarp technogoly is being developed. This technology doesn't come into use for another three hundred years tops. Granted Transformers have a near infinite life span, does it make sense for Megatron to rely on technology three centuries out of his reach?

And wouldn't the Quintesson's time machine (Forever Is A Long Time Coming) have knocked off a few years of its development (unless it was destroyed, I forget) if the Transformers had time to recover it? And even if it did, wouldn't this mean Megatron was actually relying on technology even further off than three centuries?

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 6:48 am**

In a word... yes and here is IMHO why

G1 Megatron also states in his message that it is for the future Decepticons to go back in time to win the war. This alone is enough to assume he expects himself not to be around when this technology is availabe. There would be no need to send a message for himself to go back in time. This is also under the assumption Megatron fails to win the war, and is thus destroyed, like he mentions in his message.

:-?

Is this an answer to your question? I'm not sure if you are wondering should G1 Megs expect to not be functioning when the technology is available or if it makes since for the tech to exist 300 years from his own destruction. Either would atest to his contigency planning or the advancements of non-combative Cybertronian tech when not in a time of war repectively.

well I hope this answers your question Meverix

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 7:07 am**

AxiomScion wrote:In a word... yes and here is IMHO why

G1 Megatron also states in his message that it is for the future Decepticons to go back in time to win the war. This alone is enough to assume he expects himself not to be around when this technology is availabe. There would be no need to send a message for himself to go back in time. This is also under the assumption Megatron fails to win the war, and is thus destroyed, like he mentions in his message.

Is this an answer to your question? I'm not sure if you are wondering should G1 Megs expect to not be functioning when the technology is available or if it makes since for the tech to exist 300 years from his own destruction. Either would atest to his contigency planning or the advancements of non-combative Cybertronian tech when not in a time of war repectively.

well I hope this answers your question Meverix

Ah, no no, I never thought he would leave a message for HIMSELF. It's just he's relying on technology a hell of a long way off (which, in his mind, is long enough to see his end and quite definitely the end of the decepticons with him). It just seems to me a bit odd why he'd rely on something that he shouldn't really be aware of because its so far off in development

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 7:12 am**

Maybe transwarp technology is something that began life in Megatron's lifetime, but was developed really slowly, either due to technological hiccups, authority's hesitations or something. Think about how we explore space, how long it has taken (and how long it will take) for us to get from something like Sputnik I to something like the Starship Enterprise.

Transwarp advancement may be something like that, but on an even bigger cosmic timeframe. If Megatron merely anticipates its advent - I know I can anticipate time travel and could leave a message for the future to change certain events - then it's not so absurd for Megatron to rely on such technology. After all, if he expects both himself and his faction to be gone, how else will the Decepticons win?

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 7:19 am**

Leonardo wrote:Maybe transwarp technology is something that began life in Megatron's lifetime, but was developed really slowly, either due to technological hiccups, authority's hesitations or something. Think about how we explore space, how long it has taken (and how long it will take) for us to get from something like Sputnik I to something like the Starship Enterprise.

Transwarp advancement may be something like that, but on an even bigger cosmic timeframe. If Megatron merely anticipates its advent - I know I can anticipate time travel and could leave a message for the future to change certain events - then it's not so absurd for Megatron to rely on such technology. After all, if he expects both himself and his faction to be gone, how else will the Decepticons win?

Ahh, yes, yes thats true. Making something outta nothing, aren't I

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 11:32 am**

Well, going from the UK comics, Megatron didn't have any timetravel tech himself (but future Galvatron did and told him about it).

The main drawback of Galvatron's tech was that you could possibly destroy timelines by causing rifts in space and time.

The Transwarp drive would be advanced enough to allow changes in the timeline without sending the entire universe to hell.

Yeah, Doctor Who fans know what I'm aiming at here, it's like the old Dalek Timecorridor tech vs Timelord tech. Just watch "Remembrance of the Daleks", the Doctor explains it quite nicely there.

Posted: **Wed May 23, 2007 4:14 pm**

Well, going by the toon continuity, Megs did have access to time travel. The Chronosphere in War Dawn.

Perhaps the very basic formulas of Transwarp drive were being worked out, but then the war started and these plans stopped. Only after peace was regained did any kind of advancement on the tech was made. And he wasn't relying on it, he was leaving it as a last ditch attempt for some Decepticon to find many, many years from then. And isn't that the whole point of a last ditch attempt? A risky venture with very little chance of success, to be employed when all else is lost?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2007 2:35 am**

Good points.

What exactly is the difference between Transwarp technology and the time-travel used in either the comics or "War Dawn"? How would Transwarp allow one to make changes without destroying the universe?

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2007 9:30 am**

Leonardo wrote:Good points.

What exactly is the difference between Transwarp technology and the time-travel used in either the comics or "War Dawn"? How would Transwarp allow one to make changes without destroying the universe?

Perhaps it's the method of time travel they employ? :???:

Galvatron in Target 2006 didn't seem to be able to control where he turned up, just when. As for the Chronosphere, that seemed to put them back where they were, not moving them through space, just time.

I think the main advantage of Transwarp is the ability to control where in the universe you end up, as well as when. That, and you can send an entire ship through time.

Though When Megs II killed Prime and caused that time storm, he didn't give Cybertron to the cons. He gave the universe to Unicron. I'm sure you can figure out how.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 am**

Insurgent wrote:
Leonardo wrote:Good points.

What exactly is the difference between Transwarp technology and the time-travel used in either the comics or "War Dawn"? How would Transwarp allow one to make changes without destroying the universe?

Perhaps it's the method of time travel they employ?

Galvatron in Target 2006 didn't seem to be able to control where he turned up, just when. As for the Chronosphere, that seemed to put them back where they were, not moving them through space, just time.

I think the main advantage of Transwarp is the ability to control where in the universe you end up, as well as when. That, and you can send an entire ship through time.

Though When Megs II killed Prime and caused that time storm, he didn't give Cybertron to the cons. He gave the universe to Unicron. I'm sure you can figure out how.

I cant ._. care to explain how that worked?EDIT: oh, cos they wouldn't have had the matrix to stop Unicron, right.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2007 7:21 pm**

Mass displacement time travel, as employed by Galvatron I, and later borrowed by Rodimus Prime and others, appears to work by shunting objects of comparable mass from the destination timepoint (although this is fudged in the comics) sideways into a 'holding' dimension, known colloquially as limbo.
The time traveller or time travellers are then 'sucked into the mass gaps' created by this process.

No doubt there's more to it than that. However, one observable consequence within the comic timeline (time-tangle) is that the origin timeline does not, apparently, re-write in 'real time' to keep up with changes the time traveller makes to history. There appears to be one constant, unaltered timeline running from "Wanted: Galvatron, Dead or Alive" through to "Time Wars: Prologue". Characters are aware of Galvatron's activities in the past, and can travel back and join him there, but his interference in the past's history doesn't seem to 'catch up' with them, until the end of "Time Wars", whereupon, once everyone's returned to the future, it does so all in one humungous rush.

Conclusion- mass-displacement effectively leaves the time portal 'open'. Present and future co-exist, functioning more as alternate dimensions than as two aspects of one dimension, until all time travel-displacements are normalised, and everyone's out of the past. Then, and only then, do the two timelines mesh again.

This method of time travel's fine in itself- although it should only be used for short periods, since, the longer the time spent in the past, the more drastic the cumulative readjustment upon the return to the future. There's also no evidence that it can be used to travel *forward* of the origin date- possibly because no data would exist for the mass-displacer to use to lock on to people to push into limbo.

It's as if they're still tied to the 21st Century, but held in the 20th by an elastic band.

The trouble comes when you mix time travel methods. Cyclonus and Scourge travel back to the past, circumventing mass-substitution, and instead going via a portal. For them, they're simply moved from one century into another, in TARDIS fashion- the 20th century *is* their present now... except of course that that present is dependent on a future which they are changing...

Normally, mass-substitution would avoid the paradox effect- any changes the time traveller makes would not rewrite his future until the moment of his return, at which point he'd either be rewritten or erased, depending. While he was in the past, his own past (the future) would still exist. For Cyclonus and Scourge, that doesn't apply... but, at the same time, it does, because Galvatron is a link to their shared future as well. You've got two different methods of time travel's different impacts on the laws of physics, both pulling the universe in separate directions. Of course, there's still a slender probability that Cyclonus and Scourge, as active observers of the quantum universe, will act in such a way that will bring convergence, not divergence, to the time line. Then Cyclonus dies, out of time. Suddenly, he's just anachronistic matter. His personal timeline is 'fixed'... and it's fixed in an impossible paradox. The jolt tears the already frayed universe apart, and a new future starts forcibly asserting itself (a new universe can be clearly seen behind the rift in "Time Wars". We may assume that, although Shockwave's actions saved 1989 Earth, the instant that the last matter from the old timeline was sucked into the rift and out of 'holding', 2009's universe was eaten by the rift, leaving the new version- the future of 1989's Earth- behind.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2007 8:04 pm**

As for the technology itself, it was most likely still in its conceptual stages when Megatron made that recording on the Golden Disk, much like America's Space Program in the fifties. Now, we all know Megatron's no fool. He can tell a potential advantage when he sees one, and knows better than to pass one up. Being top dog in the Decepticons means he'd be in a good position to hear about all kinds of stuff... stuff such as this. I mean, who's going to keep that secret from him? He kicks aft for less than that!

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 3:17 am**

Well, Megatron left for message for some real simple reasons:

1: He might have been an arrogent prick, but he was no idiot, he knew there was a chance the Autobots might win.

2: Re-awaken future Decepticon descendents. The Predacons were pretty much not doing much, but I am sure once BW Megatron seen the message, it got him psyched up to start it all up again.

3: Megatron did not know how long it would take transwarp technology to created and left the message for those who will have it, should he be no longer with us.

4: Possibly as finding potential would-be leaders if he was offed. I remember the Star Trek episode, [url]The Tholian Web[/img], and Kirk left a message for Spock and McCoy, should he himself be killed, and leaving instructions and advice. Remember, we only saw 30 seconds on the message, and there was deffinately more of that message on that disk....whatever was on it, it died with both Megatrons....only Galvatron would know....if he is in fact Megatron in anew body, and not a new entity all togather. :-?

[/url]

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 3:20 am**

Can anyone remind me of what Megatron actually said? I don't own the DVD's, but remember it being something along the lines of, "If you've found this, then I've already been beaten..."

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 6:03 am**

Megatron wrote:This is Megatron, Leader of the Decepticons, and if you are hearing this, it means I have failed... This time. But I know that Transwarp Technology is being developed, and so I leave this message to any Decepticon decendents that may find--

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:55 am**

…ugh... time travel paradox...
:HEADHURTS:

Here is a good one… should make that headache a bit worse also.
:HEADHURTS:

...the problem with ALL of this is, the basics of time travel estimation are this. Future travel is next to impossible due ot history happening NOW, at best a time travelable future would be a rough {if this happened} with this {if happened} ...etc... so it would not affect much, as our now would replace it with every variance in choice.

But the basics in estimation of PAST time travel are such…

1. Existence happens as it unfolds in the now.

2. When you change something NOW in the past, you “now” [IN] the past [that YOU back then would change with the alterations you make in time thru the time stream. - AKA when Beast Wars Megs distroyed that mountain in the vid refrence then it changed in the vid to catch up due ot changes in time.

3. Due to choice, an change/chance... it would be VERY VERY VERY likely you just end up erasing yourself, or alter history so you never make the trip in the first place.

SO...thus history would then be set to how it was originally or very very close to it...

4. Little to no change history is now exactly as in step 1 or a very minimal difference. Thus history continues.

:HEADHURTS:

-[if factor]-
If by some chance you still make the trip even after the first alteration in time, you would continue to do so until such a trip you result in either the universe unraveling or your unbirth/death before the first trip made… SO…

5 universe is as it was EXACTLY before step 1

:HEADHURTS:

...I would LOVE to know how TransFormer transwarp tech allow the bending of the laws of the universe.... or create the "me not affected by the changes field” on your time traveling self??

:BOOM:

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:18 pm**

Time travel makes my brain hurt. 8-}

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:18 pm**

He he. I like these conversations.

BTTFpt2.

The present will go on ahead into the future based on current events as they will transpire without any time travelling interference. This allows you to time travel forward. The future hasn't happened, but it has to a time machine. That's the beauty of it.

The past is the past and can easily be done because it's happened.

If a time traveller goes back in time and alters an event (your presence alone should accomplish that), that sends the timeline off into a new dimension. Lets call it 2007a and the version you left 2007.

As the timeline you inhabit is now following the timeline of 2007a, you cannot go back home to 2007 (the one you know and love) without undoing the action you took. This may be irreversable if you kill someone.

If you can undo the damage and ensure it stays that way, you will reset the timeline to follow 2007 (unlikely).

Unfortunatly (but more likely), in trying to fix it, you may create a new timeline 2007b and 2007, the original, will be lost completely (as happened to Mcfly in the first movie.)

Now for the paradoxes.

*Takes a VERY deep breath*

If you kill a member of your family, or prevent your parents from meeting, that would trigger the timeline 2007a. A timeline in which you don't exist. But if you dont exist, how can you go back in time and create this new timeline?

A number of answers. Which one you believe is completely up to you as there is no proof for/against any of these.

The alteration to the timeline takes a while to erase you as you are chronically displaced. This gives you enough time to alter the timeline back (why Mcfly was the last of his siblings to dissapear, even though he wasn't the youngest).

The effect of travelling to another time protects you from any changes in the timeline. So does this mean there is another you when you go back to your own time? Or do you replace him? Who's to say.

When you travel to another time, you are actually transported to another dimension, which is another Earth, but at the period you wanted to go to. If you make any changes, the time/dimensional portal you went through is closed, and a new one opens that would be the future of the one you are now in, meaning you can never get back to the original time.

If you leave 2007, and come back to 2007a, in which you also aquired the ability to time travel, what happens when you return to your 'present'? Does the 2007a you reappear in the same time period as you with his time machine, but instead of your memories of growing up in 2007, he has memories of growing up in 2007a, a timeline you created? Does he go back to the past of 2007a or does he create changes that traps him in 2007c? And if he does, do you from 2007 now living in the 'present' 2007a change to become the you from 2007c as you were not in a different time? Or do you remain as this wasn't your original timeline to begin with and 2007a change to 2007c around you, creating yet another version of you that has memories of growing up in 2007c? And can the you from 2007a return to his 'present', which would be the present 2007c and now containg 3 of you, allowing the three yous to work together to restore the timeline changes and get you back to 2007. Which would have to be done in the reverse order that these changes occured, or someone will go back to the wrong 'present'.

Or can you go back in time, create a new future (2007a), and return to your present of 2007, knowing somewhere in the crazyness of the space time continuum, there is another you living happily in 2007a.

Or is there another, unknown answer? Does the entire fabric of the universe explode off it's giant headache from trying to keep track of all these timelines?
*Collapses on the floor, out of breath.*

Crazy thing is, I understand all of what I just wrote.

How many now have a headache?

How many stopped reading long before this line?

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:31 pm**

LordStarscreamsGhost wrote::HEADHURTS:
…ugh... time travel paradox...

Here is a good one… should make that headache a bit worse also.

...the problem with ALL of this is, the basics of time travel estimation are this. Future travel is next to impossible due ot history happening NOW, at best a time travelable future would be a rough {if this happened} with this {if happened} ...etc... so it would not affect much, as our now would replace it with every variance in choice.

But the basics in estimation of PAST time travel are such…

1. Existence happens as it unfolds in the now.

2. When you change something NOW in the past, you “now” [IN] the past [that YOU back then would change with the alterations you make in time thru the time stream. - AKA when Beast Wars Megs distroyed that mountain in the vid refrence then it changed in the vid to catch up due ot changes in time.

3. Due to choice, an change/chance... it would be VERY VERY VERY likely you just end up erasing yourself, or alter history so you never make the trip in the first place.

SO...thus history would then be set to how it was originally or very very close to it...

4. Little to no change history is now exactly as in step 1 or a very minimal difference. Thus history continues.

-[if factor]-
If by some chance you still make the trip even after the first alteration in time, you would continue to do so until such a trip you result in either the universe unraveling or your unbirth/death before the first trip made… SO…

5 universe is as it was EXACTLY before step 1

...I would LOVE to know how TransFormer transwarp tech allow the bending of the laws of the universe.... or create the "me not affected by the changes field” on your time traveling self??

If they went into the past, where did they come from?

The future.

A future becomes when you move further away from it. Surely?

Posted: **Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:40 pm**

Exactly. Your present. Their future.
Your past. Their present.
Your future. Their present. Or past.
Your world. Their war.

Hang on, somethings not right about that last one... :-?

Posted: **Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:27 pm**

........"scanners event".........

:BOOM:

Posted: **Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:11 am**

Night Raid wrote:Time travel makes my brain hurt.

You think YOUR head hurts? I still can't figure out if Ravage is gonna keep going back in time & dying or if the Nemesis discovered in BW is the REAL Nemesis or not.

As for Transwarp tech, I kinda sorta get it. It involves not only time alone, but & distance as well. That's why BW Megatron stole the disc in the first place, so he could know the exact location & right time of Earth so he could destroy the Autobots & claim Cybertron for the Decepticons & Predacons.

What I don't get on time travel is that it messes up the context & usually ends up in unresolved contradictions. (Again, the Ravage & Nemesis fiasco)

Posted: **Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:38 am**

Decepticlone Soundwave wrote:
Night Raid wrote:Time travel makes my brain hurt.

You think YOUR head hurts? I still can't figure out if Ravage is gonna keep going back in time & dying or if the Nemesis discovered in BW is the REAL Nemesis or not.

As for Transwarp tech, I kinda sorta get it. It involves not only time alone, but & distance as well. That's why BW Megatron stole the disc in the first place, so he could know the exact location & right time of Earth so he could destroy the Autobots & claim Cybertron for the Decepticons & Predacons.

What I don't get on time travel is that it messes up the context & usually ends up in unresolved contradictions. (Again, the Ravage & Nemesis fiasco)

The Nemesis attacks the Ark.
The Nemesis crashes into the sea. The Ark (with Soundwave, and thus, Ravage, crashes into the volcano.
Megatron II flies the Nemesis. It ends up crashing in peru, or turkey, or wherever it ends up in those G1 eps.
4 million years later, Soundwave and Ravage are reactivated by Teletraan 1. We have G1.
300 years later, Ravage has survived and is now in his Predacon form. He goes back in time and dies.

As Ravage wasn't on the Nemesis when it crashed, there isn't really anything confusing about it. Think of his life as a piece of string laid out straight. At the end, it loops back to near the start and crosses over itself, but it doesn't merge. It ends there. Hope that helps.

Posted: **Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:48 pm**

Here's the way I see it:

G1 Ravage boards The Ark w/the rest of the G1 Decepticons.
Ark crashes on Prehistoric Earth
BW Megatron flies the Nemesis & fails; it crashes in South America
Mt. St. Hilary Erupts, G1 Transformers wake up.
Events of G1 take place.
Decepticons lose the Great War.
Ravage granted Amnesty by the Maximal Elders.
BW Ravage travels back in time & is destroyed.

Now, say just on a small chance we saw the different stages of Earth after the Maximals left. If we saw everything, we'd eventually get to 1984 again, & the Autobots & Decepticons wake up again. Thus:

Events of G1 take place.
Decepticons lose the Great War.
Ravage granted Amnesty by the Maximal Elders
Travels back in time & gets destroyed

It might seem weird to some of you, but that's what I see.....

Posted: **Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:21 am**

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I despise time travel stories.

The Energon Pub

G1 Megatron and Transwarp

G1 Megatron and Transwarp