The Energon Pub

Ok, so I was thinking about where the Matrix is and how it relates in the Beast Wars...

If you are familiar with the episode: Code of Hero

Warning Spoilers!! If you haven't seen Beast Wars yet, please rent it from Netflix or Buy the DVD, its highly recommended..




Warning..do not read if you have not sen Beast Wars yet...








In the episode of Code of Hero, as Dinobot dies, Optimus Primal says, "May his Spark join the Matrix."

So this phrase has a lot of interesting implications and leaves alot of unanswered questions.

1. If an Autobot dies completely and even Stasis lock can't help him recover, then does his Spark join the Matrix?

2. Let's assume Dinobot's Spark does make its way to join the matrix, Which Matrix does it join with, Optimus Prime's Autobot Matrix of Leadership which is in stasis Lock in the Ark on Prehistoric Earth, or The Maximal Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhere in the future back on cybertron?

3. Is the Autobot Matrix of Leadership the same as the Maximal Matrix of Leadership in the Future?

4. Assuming that the Japanese Exclusive Beast Wars series has any canon in your individual concept of continuity, Would the Matrix that Big convoy has in "Beast Wars Neo", be the same Matrix that Optimus Prime had from Generation one?

5. With the "Council of Primes" concept that was established in the Japanese Beast Wars series, do all the primes in the future have a Matrix? Is it possible that somehow maximal technology was able to divide the Matrix for each individual Prime? Does this explain how the Maximals dominate the future of Cybertron?

6. If the Maximals in the future developed the Matrix Buster of which big convoy wields, then doesn't that mean their ultimate goal of peace is a contradiction?



7. If Vector sigma is the gateway to the "well of Sparks", does that mean the Matrix is a window?

8.In the Beast Wars series, not Beast Machines, did Optimus Primal ever have a Matrix?











Lets take a look at what the definition is of the Autobot Matrix shall we?




The Autobot Matrix of Leadership:
# In the fictional Transformers Universe, the Autobot Matrix of Leadership (or Creation Matrix as it is known in the comics) is a talisman of legend, passed down from Autobot leader to Autobot leader. It comprises an oval-shaped container, holding a glowing crystal. To open the Matrix is to release an unpredictable wave of power from this crystal. In some continuities, the Matrix itself seems to have an intelligence of its own, able to determine when and how it will be used.The Matrix also serves as a source of power, able to morph a chosen Transformer (for example Hot Rod in the Transformers movie or Starscream in the G2 comic) into a higher-powered being, sometimes with a modified alternate mode. The transfer of the Matrix usually carries with it to the recipient, upon transformation, the title "Prime".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobot_Ma ... Leadership





The Maximal Matrix of leadership:

The Maximal Matrix of Leadership situated within a Maximal leader's chest connects them directly to Vector Sigma itself. Vector Sigma often times speaks through them to provide their team of warriors with hope in the most desperate of times.

Big Convoy's trademark weapon is the “Big Cannon”. With this incredible weapon Big Convoy can power up an awesome blast of energy which eradicates anything and everything in its path. He can also use his Maximal Matrix of Leadership to transform and enhance his Big Cannon. This creates the “Matrix Buster”, a weapon powerful enough to inflict damage unfathomable to the human mind.


For more information on the Matrix and Transformers Religion, I suggest reading the article Written by Dr Spengler, which resides here on Seibertron.com..

Link:
http://seibertron.com/infozone/articles ... icle_id=66

though informative, this article doesn't explain the questions I have raised above. What are your thoughts?

I would say the Maximal Matrix and the Autobotmatrix are one and the same thing.
I'de say that since the Maxamals are higer in evolution then the Autobots they somehow maneged to make more of the Matrix then just what the Autobots did with it.

The only Matrix Optimus Primal had in Beast Wars was the Autobot Matrix as he keep it save till Rinox finishes his Job with Prime.
And as he sees it he looks like he would never have belived to get so close to it.
Primel never had the Matrix since he was meraly a (Policeman I think) he was never ment to lead, just him crashing on Earth he made the desison to lead, since he was the only worier.
The rest were all scientists and a kid.

Maybe they maneged to split the Matrix in the Japaneas BW but I don't think so.

Dead Metal wrote:I would say the Maximal Matrix and the Autobotmatrix are one and the same thing.
I'de say that since the Maxamals are higer in evolution then the Autobots they somehow maneged to make more of the Matrix then just what the Autobots did with it.

The only Matrix Optimus Primal had in Beast Wars was the Autobot Matrix as he keep it save till Rinox finishes his Job with Prime.
And as he sees it he looks like he would never have belived to get so close to it.
Primel never had the Matrix since he was meraly a (Policeman I think) he was never ment to lead, just him crashing on Earth he made the desison to lead, since he was the only worier.
The rest were all scientists and a kid.

Maybe they maneged to split the Matrix in the Japaneas BW but I don't think so.

So on a power scale, Optimus Primal was never as tough as the original Optimus Prime due to the fact that the Matrix was never given to him.. but when he joined his spark with Optimus Prime's spark, he was advanced into Optimal Optimus.. does that mean that he then was given a connection to the matrix?? Was he then as powerful as Optimus prime?? If this is true then how does that work for Megatron seeing as how the original Megatron doesn't possess a matrix?? What in G-1 Megatron's Spark gives him the ability to advance Beast Wars Megatron into the Transmetals 2 form??

I would say that G1 Megs's Spark's ability was to be able to draw power from hate (like Venom) that's probebly what gave him the power to defeat Prime.
Like G1 Starscream's ability to remain as a Ghost.

Yes Optimal Optimus was as strong as Prime, cos for that short time he hade the Matrix and Prime's Spark he was Optimus Prime, technekly.

Could it just be that the original transformers were more powerful then the future versions, seeing as how they were considerably larger??


According to the transformers history, of generation one, Vector Sigma was destroyed and with it the planet Cybertron itself, so how was vector sigma rebuilt?? Cybertron was rebuilt?? so the Cybertron the Maximals and Predacons inhabit in the future isn't the same one that the Autobots and Decepticons come from?? then how does that affect Beast Machines and the whole matrix/Vector sigma relationship??


We need an expert!!!!!

Hold on a second.

I was always under the impression that "The MATRIX" was not the same thing as the "Matrix of Leadership". At most, in the animated continuity, I thought the Matrix of Leadership was only a key or path into the Matrix proper.

In Beastwars (or Beast Machines), it is stated that Sparks are part of the Allspark, also known as the "Matrix," the "well of all Sparks". When a Transformer dies, and the Spark goes out, it returns to the Allspark, assimilated back into it to share all the knowledge it has gained with the whole ("when all are one).

The Matrix of Leadership, on the other hand, has only ever been used as a source of power, or to upgrade a chosen Transformer into a higher or alternative form. Whever Rodimus used it in third season it was used to show him the history of Cybertron or as a key to activate Vector Sigma. It seems to be passed down to all the "Primes," meaning that the Matrix of Leadership in Primal's custody is the same one that Optimus championed.

It doesn't make sense that Optimus Prime or Primal would be carrying around the Transformer equivalent of the after-life in his chest (that would be dangerous if it were ever destroyed); instead, doesn't it stand to reason that the Autobot Matrix of Leadership is a connection to the Matrix, to channel its power and wisdom?

No, the Matrix in Prime's chest is the alspark!

Cybertron was destroyed in Headmasters which folowes a different continuity, the Transformers were most probebly more powerfull then the Maximals.

1. If an Autobot dies completely, and even Stasis lock can't help him recover, then does his Spark join the Matrix?

Yes, there spark will become one with the matrix as per G1 lore.

2. Let's assume Dinobot's Spark does make its way to join the matrix, Which Matrix does it join with, Optimus Prime's Autobot Matrix of Leadership which is in stasis Lock in the Ark on Prehistoric Earth, or The Maximal Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhere in the future back on cybertron?

I'm going with The one currently residing in the G1 Prime's chest as i see no reason for the spark to have it's own means of time travel.

3. Is the Autobot Matrix of Leadership the same as the Maximal Matrix of Leadership in the Future?

Technically no. Rodimus Prime never gave up his matrix to his succesor. Though it was devoid of primus enrgy (or the all spark) when he left, having used it to revitalize the planet. In that since the energy could reside in cybertron and inderectly VectorSigma.

4. Assuming that the Japanese Exclusive Beast Wars series has any canon in your individual concept of continuity, Would the Matrix that Big convoy has in "Beast Wars Neo", be the same Matrix that Optimus Prime had from Generation one?

In the strictest since, no. Hotrod still should have the casing. but given my thoughts on the last question it is plossible that the new matrixii are linked to or hold some portion of the allspark energy of Primus. They are connected to VectorSigma at the very least.

5. With the "Council of Primes" concept that was established in the Japanese Beast Wars series, do all the Primes in the future have a Matrix? Is it possible that somehow maximal technology was able to divide the Matrix for each individual Prime? Does this explain how the Maximals dominate the future of Cybertron?

In respect to the tri question's ordering: Yes, No, Perhaps. What they call a matrix in the Japan BW series is not THE matrix, but rather a less powerful emulator. Thought they effectively share the same energies and are more versitle, the 1st matrix for all intence and purposes was an extention of Primus' Spark if not remaining power crystalized. Mixing even a portion of there maker's energies with them should increase the abilites just the same right? Think of the neo matrixii as Inuyasha's jewel shards and Primes Matrix as the shigon jewel if it helps.

6. If the Maximals in the future developed the Matrix Buster of which big convoy wields, then doesn't that mean their ultimate goal of peace is a contradiction?

Peace throught tyranny! lol just kidding there but again the matrix buster is simply big convoy's big buster with a little matrix linked energon behind it. Kinda like G1 Megatron's canon linking to a blackhole or Galvatron's link to unicron for his laser canon and added strength. (Post movie Galvi really was limited)

7. If Vector sigma is the gateway to the "well of Sparks", does that mean the Matrix is a window?

Bingo! Though i'm fuzzy on the "well of sparks" info ref... At least three items in G1 lore could be linked to Primus/all spark/well of... in some way. All must fear the plasma chamber...

8. In the Beast Wars series, not Beast Machines, did Optimus Primal ever have a Matrix?

Nopers... He was a captain of a crew. At best a exploration captain treky style, worst a dilivery captain futuramna style. I think it's somewere in the middle with a bit of robotix meets luv boat...

9. So on a power scale, Optimus Primal was never as tough as the original Optimus Prime due to the fact that the Matrix was never given to him.. but when he joined his spark with Optimus Prime's spark, he was advanced into Optimal Optimus.. does that mean that he then was given a connection to the matrix?? Was he then as powerful as Optimus prime?? If this is true then how does that work for Megatron seeing as how the original Megatron doesn't possess a matrix?? What in G-1 Megatron's Spark gives him the ability to advance Beast Wars Megatron into the Transmetals 2 form??

Maximals are decendants of Autobots via a modified micro master/power master kitbash/upgrade. When Primal held the matrix, he also held G1 Prime's spark. The matrix did nothing to the monkey, just like with UltraMagnus. It was the BW frame supporting two sparks were there should only be one, that caused an effect similar to the quantum serge creating the transmetals, much like with BW Megatron or even TigerHawk the transmetal fuzor. What the three share is the Binarty bonding prosses of taking a second spark into ther body. I believe even wiki states that Opt^2 is not actually a transmetal 2 and that BW Meg is misnamed as one. Blacharacnia, Cheetor, and the Dynobot clone are technically the only TM2 in the series having used the the transmetal driver.

10. Could it just be that the original transformers were more powerful then the future versions, seeing as how they were considerably larger??

Most reasonable response I've seen in a while. Opt^2 couldn't be any bigger than bubble bee... The maximal upgrade seemed more of a practical one for fuel efficency and not military based, other wise they wouldn't have offered it to the Predacons.

11. According to the transformers history, of generation one, Vector Sigma was destroyed and with it the planet Cybertron itself, so how was vector sigma rebuilt?? Cybertron was rebuilt?? so the Cybertron the Maximals and Predacons inhabit in the future isn't the same one that the Autobots and Decepticons come from?? then how does that affect Beast Machines and the whole matrix/Vector sigma relationship??

I chose to disbelieve... roles a D8 I succeed in my disbelief and thus BW and G1 are still reconsilable in a single continuity. But If it's as you say then the Autobots would need to replace VectorSigma, and refind there now fallen deity. It would make for an intersting series but then I'ld have to believe BM as a plossible continuation of BW and I only have 1D8...

Well i hope this helps as my rant is runt

skywarp-2 wrote:1. If an Autobot dies completely, and even Stasis lock can't help him recover, then does his Spark join the Matrix?

AxiomScion wrote: Yes, there spark will become one with the matrix as per G1 lore.

skywarp-2 wrote:2. Let's assume Dinobot's Spark does make its way to join the matrix, Which Matrix does it join with, Optimus Prime's Autobot Matrix of Leadership which is in stasis Lock in the Ark on Prehistoric Earth, or The Maximal Matrix of Leadership, which is somewhere in the future back on cybertron?

AxiomScion wrote: I'm going with The one currently residing in the G1 Prime's chest as i see no reason for the spark to have it's own means of time travel.

If thats the case then how come Starscream's Spark has traveled back in time? Did he come through the same Quantum singularity that the Maximals and Predacons came through initially? It just seems to me that if Starscream could come back to the past in his spark form after being destroyed in the future by Galvatron, and his Spark is also residing in the Ark with his disfunctional body, then why wouldn't his Spark from the future rejoin his original body, thereby increasing his size and strength??

skywarp-2 wrote:3. Is the Autobot Matrix of Leadership the same as the Maximal Matrix of Leadership in the Future?

AxiomScion wrote:Technically no. Rodimus Prime never gave up his matrix to his succesor. Though it was devoid of primus enrgy (or the all spark) when he left, having used it to revitalize the planet. In that since the energy could reside in cybertron and inderectly VectorSigma.

So the Maximals were able to rebuild a new Matrix? it makes sense seeing as how they could have old plans, from the Autobot Days, showing how to make one...

So if we go by American Continuity, the Matrix was drained completely to revitalize and keep Cybertron alive, though it was ultimately futile since the planet and vector Sigma were eventually destroyed anyways..And in the Rebirth episode, optimus prime released the full power of the Matrix to subside the hate plague..

skywarp-2 wrote:4. Assuming that the Japanese Exclusive Beast Wars series has any canon in your individual concept of continuity, Would the Matrix that Big convoy has in "Beast Wars Neo", be the same Matrix that Optimus Prime had from Generation one?

AxiomScion wrote:In the strictest since, no. Hotrod still should have the casing. but given my thoughts on the last question it is plossible that the new matrixii are linked to or hold some portion of the allspark energy of Primus. They are connected to VectorSigma at the very least.

but if they are connected from vector sigma, then that means they are connected to the allspark well, and the energy from that realm is just as much the same thing that the original Matrix had.. but I guess your right its not the exact same one Optimus Prime Had..

skywarp-2 wrote:5. With the "Council of Primes" concept that was established in the Japanese Beast Wars series, do all the Primes in the future have a Matrix? Is it possible that somehow maximal technology was able to divide the Matrix for each individual Prime? Does this explain how the Maximals dominate the future of Cybertron?

AxiomScion wrote:In respect to the tri question's ordering: Yes, No, Perhaps. What they call a matrix in the Japan BW series is not THE matrix, but rather a less powerful emulator. Thought they effectively share the same energies and are more versitle, the 1st matrix for all intence and purposes was an extention of Primus' Spark if not remaining power crystalized. Mixing even a portion of there maker's energies with them should increase the abilites just the same right? Think of the neo matrixii as Inuyasha's jewel shards and Primes Matrix as the shigon jewel if it helps.

that makes more sense as to the why and how the upgrades happen..

skywarp-2 wrote:6. If the Maximals in the future developed the Matrix Buster of which big convoy wields, then doesn't that mean their ultimate goal of peace is a contradiction?

AxiomScion wrote:Peace throught tyranny! lol just kidding there but again the matrix buster is simply big convoy's big buster with a little matrix linked energon behind it. Kinda like G1 Megatron's canon linking to a blackhole or Galvatron's link to unicron for his laser canon and added strength. (Post movie Galvi really was limited)

that makes sense..

skywarp-2 wrote:7. If Vector sigma is the gateway to the "well of Sparks", does that mean the Matrix is a window?

AxiomScion wrote:Bingo! Though i'm fuzzy on the "well of sparks" info ref... At least three items in G1 lore could be linked to Primus/all spark/well of... in some way. All must fear the plasma chamber...

how true...

skywarp-2 wrote:8. In the Beast Wars series, not Beast Machines, did Optimus Primal ever have a Matrix?

AxiomScion wrote:Nopers... He was a captain of a crew. At best a exploration captain treky style, worst a dilivery captain futuramna style. I think it's somewere in the middle with a bit of robotix meets luv boat...

So he was a police officer then, because I remember him saying they were transporting a Predacon X as a Prisoner or something like that...who then turned out to be Rampage..Too bad he didn't posses a Matrix, he would have been a great leader in that position, but as it was, it was nice to have a leader who was just a police captain of sorts..So if you include Japanese Canon, then the only Beast Wars Optimus that carries the Matrix are Lio Convoy and Big convoy..I liked the fact that Lio convoy teamed up with optimus primal in beast wrs 2, or Beast Wars Neo..

skywarp-2 wrote:9. So on a power scale, Optimus Primal was never as tough as the original Optimus Prime due to the fact that the Matrix was never given to him.. but when he joined his spark with Optimus Prime's spark, he was advanced into Optimal Optimus.. does that mean that he then was given a connection to the matrix?? Was he then as powerful as Optimus prime?? If this is true then how does that work for Megatron seeing as how the original Megatron doesn't possess a matrix?? What in G-1 Megatron's Spark gives him the ability to advance Beast Wars Megatron into the Transmetals 2 form??

AxiomScion wrote:Maximals are decendants of Autobots via a modified micro master/power master kitbash/upgrade. When Primal held the matrix, he also held G1 Prime's spark. The matrix did nothing to the monkey, just like with UltraMagnus. It was the BW frame supporting two sparks were there should only be one, that caused an effect similar to the quantum serge creating the transmetals, much like with BW Megatron or even TigerHawk the transmetal fuzor. What the three share is the Binarty bonding prosses of taking a second spark into ther body. I believe even wiki states that Opt^2 is not actually a transmetal 2 and that BW Meg is misnamed as one. Blacharacnia, Cheetor, and the Dynobot clone are technically the only TM2 in the series having used the the transmetal driver.

Ahhh that makes sense!!! so the bodies of the original Maximals and Predacons who have more then one Spark provided have to upgrade their bodies via a process that will allow them to retain that energy.. So does that make them more powerful then the original G-1 Bots???

skywarp-2 wrote:10. Could it just be that the original transformers were more powerful then the future versions, seeing as how they were considerably larger??

AxiomScion wrote:Most reasonable response I've seen in a while. Opt^2 couldn't be any bigger than bubble bee... The maximal upgrade seemed more of a practical one for fuel efficency and not military based, other wise they wouldn't have offered it to the Predacons.

Makes god sense, but there is always the old adage that as technology becomes more advanced, it gets smaller and smaller..But its also a truth that older things, Like for example cars, were built tougher and heavier then todays standards, which would explain why the G-1 bots are so massive and tough..

skywarp-2 wrote:11. According to the transformers history, of generation one, Vector Sigma was destroyed and with it the planet Cybertron itself, so how was vector sigma rebuilt?? Cybertron was rebuilt?? so the Cybertron the Maximals and Predacons inhabit in the future isn't the same one that the Autobots and Decepticons come from?? then how does that affect Beast Machines and the whole matrix/Vector sigma relationship??

AxiomScion wrote:I chose to disbelieve... roles a D8 I succeed in my disbelief and thus BW and G1 are still reconsilable in a single continuity. But If it's as you say then the Autobots would need to replace VectorSigma, and refind there now fallen deity. It would make for an intersting series but then I'ld have to believe BM as a plossible continuation of BW and I only have 1D8...

Ha ha haha I roll and choose Magic Missile!!! LOL.. anyhow, what i don't understand is this...if Cybertron was destroyed back int he days of G-1 before the Maximal and Predacon emergence, then rebuilt, how can there be an organic planet core in Beast Machines? What of the oracle, its not the same as the original Vector Sigma?? If the Cybertron in BM has an organic core, did Beast Wars Megatron go further back in time then we realized, did he avert the original Cybertron's destruction before he took control?? Or did the Maximals and Predacons simply find another planet and converted it to a New Cybertron??

AxiomScion wrote:Well i hope this helps as my rant is runt

It did help, but also raised some more questions..

I haven't seen the japanese BW stuff, so I can't help there. But my views are:

Starscream's spark was wondering around Cybertron between teh eps SS ghost and Ghost in the Machine (explaining how he caught up with current events after his death eg teh existance of Unicron). During this, he got caught in a tear in the spacew time continuum, resulting from teh transwarp jump triggered by Megs II in the pilot. This resulted in him on Earth. The flash at the end of the ep is him returning through the time warp back to his own time, allowing him to continue in Ghost in the Machine (I believe he remained functional after that ep and led a full life afterwards). This may or may not be the same time distortion that caught Depth Charge.

He didn't go and possess his body for the simple reason he didnt know he was on Earth. Why would he? Even teh BW guys didnt at that stage. Surely he would have if he had known. And kill Megs on the Ark, giving him total control of the cons when they all wake up.

What else was there...

The matrix in Prime's chest is not the after life. The allspark. Simply a vessel to tap into the power that may or may not reside in another dimension. Vector Sigma is the primary key to access that, explaining why Sparks can be given from it. The matrix in Prime's chest allows a direct link to Vector Sigma, explaining why Prime could use it to reactivate VS and use it to bring Sparks for the Dinobots.

You have to say the BW go from the US cartoon, otherwise there is no way the tf's could rebuild Cybertron and Vector Sigma, neither of which was destroyed in the US toon.

Primal was a police man/captain so he never had a matrix.

The bodies mutate when holding two sparks to be able to contain the energy. Yeah, got that. Powerwise, they would probably be greater if the BW guy and the G1 guy whose spark it was were the same size. However, regardless of the power OPOP may have, G1 Megs fusion cannon still has a barrel that is about the size of OPOP and that would kill him regardless. So the G1 guys would probably still slaughter the BW, unless it was a minibot.

In Dweller in the Depths, there apeear to be old cave tunnels under Cybertron. Perhaps Cybertron was originally an organic planet that the Quints paved over with steel/whatever they use to create a better environment for them and the factories. Vector Sigma may have been a super computer built by the original inhabitants. It would explain why it would want the organicness of BM. It grew sick of being surrounded by so much artificial technology. Perhaps teh Matrix is a force in another dimesnion that can utilise sparks, and Vector Sigma is the herald of the Matrix in this dimension.

but if they are connected from vector sigma, then that means they are connected to the allspark well, and the energy from that realm is just as much the same thing that the original Matrix had.. but I guess your right its not the exact same one Optimus Prime Had..

The matrix allowed Prime to access the powers of VS to grant new life, destroy Unicron, but I think that power was still regulated and granted by VS. The matrix simply gave Prime a way of communicating with it from off world.

The (chest) matrix allows the holder to venture into teh Matrix (allspark) and find/talk with the sparks of long dead tfs without having to die themselves. Which explains how Alpha Trion could talk from the matrix in Rebirth, despite him getting sucked into VS in KTVSpt2. And how Prime appeared from the matrix in BHTB, despite him coming back to life later.

None of this is cannon, but it's my take on things and it helps to clear up some headaches from thinking about this alot more than we should.

skywarp-2 wrote:If thats the case then how come Starscream's Spark has traveled back in time? Did he come through the same Quantum singularity that the Maximals and Predacons came through initially? It just seems to me that if Starscream could come back to the past in his spark form after being destroyed in the future by Galvatron, and his Spark is also residing in the Ark with his disfunctional body, then why wouldn't his Spark from the future rejoin his original body, thereby increasing his size and strength??

While i think Insurgents answer is just Prime, I'ld like to give you my thoughts as well. Screamer's spark was just caught in a temperal tear really. Truth is i'm not certain how StarScream died again, but if the BW time tear was the same one he went through, I doubt he would be that knowlegible on the new cybertron, or even the familure with ancient earth's energon riddled appearance. Not thinking he's on earth he'ld never look for his body there. Also if you use a dash of IDW lore then taking his G1 body out of stassis could prove fatal to him in a temperal since.

That may have raised more questions... G1 TFs are energon gusseling goliaths with internal sheilds though many are insufficent to protect them from the quantaies of raw energon resident in BW earth era. (IDW Spotlite:Shockwave) It may have somewhat stupified the Dinobots to...

Insurgent wrote:The matrix in Prime's chest is not the after life. The allspark. Simply a vessel to tap into the power that may or may not reside in another dimension. Vector Sigma is the primary key to access that, explaining why Sparks can be given from it.

maybe... maybe not. If Marvel's comic series was during the X-men's M'kran crystal saga (DarkPheonix stuff) it wouldn't be that big a stretch thinking the matrix worked in a similar fashion. The crystal thingy in the center of Prime's matrix could be a vessel to tap into the power, much like the M'kran crystal, or be that other demension, much like the M'kran crystal. The other demension would be more like the DBZ kind though but for TFs... Still your theory seems sound enough to me. Infact i remember somewere reading the "key" reference so your probably right on the money.

I thought VectorSigma was a TF super computer designed to link to the allspark. This idea would also account for Primus being Cybertron as a TF has a spark (in this case the allspark/matrix) a cerebro core (in this case Vector Sigma) and a means to regulate energon or other fuel sources (in this case the plasma chamber) think of it as a soul, mind, and heart respectively. I understand that this risks setting prescident with the cyber-planet-key series, but i'm willing to take that risk. My theory places VectSig as another means to access the Allspark (most likely assuming it is the matrix)

I myself try to mesh most of G1 cotinuity with the US cartoon, though I think Insurgent does so more closely.

skywarp-2 wrote:but if they are connected from vector sigma, then that means they are connected to the allspark well, and the energy from that realm is just as much the same thing that the original Matrix had.. but I guess your right its not the exact same one Optimus Prime Had..

I think I understand what you are saying... to better explain i'll need to reference a marvel character. Say Nova of the nova corps. (for DC, think lanterncorps with supermans powers but scaled down closer to that of spiderman) as a member of the novacorps they were all linked to same power and coparable to spiderman. When all but one was killed, the remainig one was actually closer top Superman in power. Prime was the only one linking to the matrix enery when he had the matrix, and in the japan BWII series a number of mech were linked. The power seems greater than the some of its parts and G1's source of power was... less tapped...

skywarp-2 wrote:So he was a police officer then, because I remember him saying they were transporting a Predacon X as a Prisoner or something like that...who then turned out to be Rampage..Too bad he didn't posses a Matrix, he would have been a great leader in that position, but as it was, it was nice to have a leader who was just a police captain of sorts..So if you include Japanese Canon, then the only Beast Wars Optimus that carries the Matrix are Lio Convoy and Big convoy..I liked the fact that Lio convoy teamed up with optimus primal in beast wrs 2, or Beast Wars Neo..

Primal was a space captain of an exploration vessel, given a secret mission regarding Rampage. However BWII movie feartures him with a matrix. If you want to reconsile this there is the option that given the high levels of raw energon primal's matrix can't be used in prehistoric earth, also when Primal returns from the vok in a TM body it technicaly is not the same body that was destroyed earlier so his matrix should not be in it. Also counting japan canon all feild deuty covoys/primals would have a matrix.

skywarp-2 wrote:Ahhh that makes sense!!! so the bodies of the original Maximals and Predacons who have more then one Spark provided have to upgrade their bodies via a process that will allow them to retain that energy.. So does that make them more powerful then the original G-1 Bots?

Not really, just much stronger than there body previously was. It's not like DBZ fussion were both bodies are merged into one, it's more like the the namek fuse style with only the spark energy being retained in one body. While the BW protoform may be more technologicaly advanced G1 Prime was built for war and to match the strongest TF there... G1 Megatron. Opt^2 being a quad changer may have something to do with Prime being technicaly matrix sincitive thus a Primal's body holding his pre-BW flight alt, a TM munky, and ground vehicle mode for Prime's spark.

I see the last one raising more questions :-s but i can't bring myself to delete it...

skywarp-2 wrote:Makes good sense, but there is always the old adage that as technology becomes more advanced, it gets smaller and smaller..But its also a truth that older things, Like for example cars, were built tougher and heavier then todays standards, which would explain why the G-1 bots are so massive and tough..

But then there is the not so old adage of G1 being Diecast, "a lost art" by Primal's era. Remember standard G1 hight > Minibots > Micromasters which i'm betting are near the average hight of a BW protoform. Scale wise G1 Bumblebee is likely 15ft tall and Opt^2 is closer to 12ft. Brawn should take him in hand to hand.

skywarp-2 wrote:Anyhow, what i don't understand is this...if Cybertron was destroyed back int he days of G-1 before the Maximal and Predacon emergence, then rebuilt, how can there be an organic planet core in Beast Machines? What of the oracle, its not the same as the original Vector Sigma?? If the Cybertron in BM has an organic core, did Beast Wars Megatron go further back in time then we realized, did he avert the original Cybertron's destruction before he took control?? Or did the Maximals and Predacons simply find another planet and converted it to a New Cybertron??

In Japanese canon it was destroyed, but not exalty rebuilt. Like Insurgent said, Headmasters didn't happen in the US. but as I said before, If it did happen they would need to replace VectorSigma, locate there fallen god primus, get his spark goodness into a new planet, and tchnoform the planet. After which they need enough time to make common knowlege of G1 not so common to the populas and get everyone to take the the new upgrade or get off planet to starve like the communist Maximals would want... I mean offer the upgrade as a means of peace...

To simply put it, the new cybertron isn't the G1 homeworld if it has an organic chewy center Soo... question #4 for the answer

Similar to Insurgent's closing much of this is in refernce to cannon information, but is not nessasarily canon in and of itself.

The Matrix/Pit/Allspark is the ssence of life, and the essence of primus. It contain the essence of every Transformer who live, has lived and will ever live.
Its intemporal...

This is a very good topic. I love this kind of stuff. To answe (Some) of you questions, I'll say this:

The Autobot Matrix of Leadership & Maximal Mtrix of Leadership are the same thing. W/the change of faction names, so does the Matrix. Wy do you think they call the Elders the Maximal Elders instead of the Autobot Elders like they used to be?

Dinobot's spark went to future Matrix. I'm only sayin this because I think that the Matrix in Prime in the Ark is housing the sparks of the TFs that had passed by that time, so no Maximal of Predacon sparks were there, only that of G1 TFs.

Optimus Primal NEVER had any Matrix in his body other than the occasion in "Optimal Situation" where he was forced to put in his body to protect Optimus Prime's spark from surgical shock. Nor in BM. He was never a Prime Elect, therefore he was never given the Matrix. Although not seen or heard of in the American cartoons, Big Convoy was the Prime of the Beast Wars Era. It's implied that he had the Matrix.

]If thats the case then how come Starscream's Spark has traveled back in time? Did he come through the same Quantum singularity that the Maximals and Predacons came through initially? It just seems to me that if Starscream could come back to the past in his spark form after being destroyed in the future by Galvatron, and his Spark is also residing in the Ark with his disfunctional body, then why wouldn't his Spark from the future rejoin his original body, thereby increasing his size and strength??[quote= wrote:
The fact that he was never smart enough for such a good idea...and at the time I'm not sure if was knowen at the time it they were on earth but dont quote me on that!!!!

So the Maximals were able to rebuild a new Matrix? it makes sense seeing as how they could have old plans, from the Autobot Days, showing how to make one...

So if we go by American Continuity, the Matrix was drained completely to revitalize and keep Cybertron alive, though it was ultimately futile since the planet and vector Sigma were eventually destroyed anyways..And in the Rebirth episode, optimus prime released the full power of the Matrix to subside the hate plague..[/quote]

You got that all wrong.........It was in "The return of Optimus Prime" that the Matrix was used to subside the hate plague and it was then in "The Rebirth" that it was used to merge with Vector Sigma so that Optimus could communicate with Alpha Trion.Cybertron was revitalized by energe's from the Earth's sun and channeled thru a plazma chamber.And in the American Continuity Cybertron was NEVER DESTROYED!You are mixxing up your American Continuity with your Japanese Headmaster Continuity!!!!And there's no reason to beleave that a new Matrix had to be built!!!!!!









[/quote]So he was a police officer then, because I remember him saying they were transporting a Predacon X as a Prisoner or something like that...who then turned out to be Rampage..Too bad he didn't posses a Matrix, he would have been a great leader in that position, but as it was, it was nice to have a leader who was just a police captain of sorts..So if you include Japanese Canon, then the only Beast Wars Optimus that carries the Matrix are Lio Convoy and Big convoy..I liked the fact that Lio convoy teamed up with optimus primal in beast wrs 2, or Beast Wars Neo..[/quote]

No actually he was a captain of a exploration ship[just like Cap-Kirk and the Enterprise] who was givven a mission to transport a prisioner from one place to an other.

Insurgent wrote:Starscream's spark was wondering around Cybertron between teh eps SS ghost and Ghost in the Machine (explaining how he caught up with current events after his death eg teh existance of Unicron). During this, he got caught in a tear in the spacew time continuum, resulting from teh transwarp jump triggered by Megs II in the pilot. This resulted in him on Earth. The flash at the end of the ep is him returning through the time warp back to his own time, allowing him to continue in Ghost in the Machine (I believe he remained functional after that ep and led a full life afterwards). This may or may not be the same time distortion that caught Depth Charge....

I'm so confused.... he was woundering between the eps of SS ghost, then, got caught in a tear in space time, transwarp jump triggered by Megs ( Galvatron?), and went to earth , then he flash bash in his own time, to finish hunting Galvatron, etc, and maybe he lived a full life afterwards, .... ok..did I get that right???

When Primal says that Dinobot's spark will join the Matrix, he's referring to the Transformer "afterlife dimension" loosely introduced back when Rhinox plucked Primal's own spark out of it. Beast Machines evolved that into the "Allspark," which is also called "The Matrix" at times. The physical Matrix of Leadership object, as well as Vector Sigma, are just gateways to this realm.

NightFall wrote:
I'm so confused.... he was woundering between the eps of SS ghost, then, got caught in a tear in space time, transwarp jump triggered by Megs ( Galvatron?), and went to earth , then he flash bash in his own time, to finish hunting Galvatron, etc, and maybe he lived a full life afterwards, .... ok..did I get that right???

Bingo Bango Baby! At least that's my own interpretation of events. The hardest part to understand there is which Megs is which. Remember, Megs II refers to the BW Megs, not Galvatron and the time jump is the one the Darkside and Axalon come out of in the opening shot of BW. The rip that SS falls through is an unententional side effect.