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megatronus wrote:Eh. I think we just have a rosy view of that time. There were plenty of stinkers then, too.

Like Voyager Animated Cybertron Mode Megatron

Or how they used the movie Brawn mold to give us classics Outback

william-james88 wrote:Well of course because in that time period you get Animated, First Edition Prime, HFTD, RTS and the best movie leaders. Plus you get Onslaught and Warpath. Yeah, thats a beautiful era.

megatronus wrote:Eh. I think we just have a rosy view of that time. There were plenty of stinkers then, too.

Yeah, let's see here, we had:

• Massive frustration over Animated's release schedule being entirely screwy, with the toys coming extremely late after the show premiere due to the first movie line then being canceled after less than a year due to plans for the RotF line. The internet complained about not only the general designs of the characters in some circles, but also about dodgy paint apps and sometimes poor distribution.
• Prime First Edition toys being not only extremely hard to find for a long time (outside of Bumblebee, Arcee, and Starscream) after no retailer picked up most of it, but also complaining because once again, the toys came way later than the show's premiere.
• HftD was panned as just a continuation of the RotF line and clogged shelves (in places where RotF was not still clogging shelves itself). Leader Starscream, albeit being awesome, also clogged shelves because this was coming out during the dregs of the recession and $45 toys didn't sell.
• RtS was a weird hybrid line that started as basically HftD 2.0/RotF 3.0 but was Classics-styled by the end, except that the end had extremely poor distribution/canceled releases and many folks paid $50+ for Windchargers for a time. Market Six and the Club eventually remedied this, but it took a long time and lots of frustrating trips to the store.
• Generations' first run was well distributed, good quality, and only had minimal complaints, so you can have Warpath's memory un-touched

HAHA thanks Scotty! While I caught up on my collection, I have not been collecting for too long (I am also not in the states and distribution is very different, like with the First Edition figures) so I do not have the memory of the anguish. I was only looking at the quality of the toys in restrospect when the previous post compared two eras of toys.

Glad you like that Leader Starscream, he is probably one of my favourites and a saving grace to the the existence of the movie lines.

So I picked up CW Prowl yesterday. Without debating the merits of CW vs Universe. The head sculpt is just better on CW. Not saying the Universe version is a bad figure. It's totally not, but the head sculpt just isn't as good. Case in point- CW Prowl: Young, handsome. Universe Prowl: Constipated.



Universe has better paint apps on the head. The horns are all red, not just the front. But he does look like he's had some really bad Energon.

megatronus wrote:Eh. I think we just have a rosy view of that time. There were plenty of stinkers then, too.

I don't think so. Yes, there were some not so great figures, sure, but a lot of the so called bad figures from then would be some of the better figures if they were released now. Like Universe Galvatron that's supposedly the worst thing ever...I think that's better than most the molds that have come since FOC. The engineering was vastly superior then, transformations more creative and solid, they actually had proper articulation most of the time, and the figures weren't hollow and a size class smaller.

Kibble wrote:

megatronus wrote:Eh. I think we just have a rosy view of that time. There were plenty of stinkers then, too.

I don't think so. Yes, there were some not so great figures, sure, but a lot of the so called bad figures from then would be some of the better figures if they were released now. Like Universe Galvatron that's supposedly the worst thing ever...I think that's better than most the molds that have come since FOC. The engineering was vastly superior then, transformations more creative and solid, they actually had proper articulation most of the time, and the figures weren't hollow and a size class smaller.

I'd rather have a little hollowness that 12 pieces falling off of Galvatron when I try to transform him.

Kibble wrote:

megatronus wrote:Eh. I think we just have a rosy view of that time. There were plenty of stinkers then, too.

I don't think so. Yes, there were some not so great figures, sure, but a lot of the so called bad figures from then would be some of the better figures if they were released now. Like Universe Galvatron that's supposedly the worst thing ever...I think that's better than most the molds that have come since FOC. The engineering was vastly superior then, transformations more creative and solid, they actually had proper articulation most of the time, and the figures weren't hollow and a size class smaller.

Galvatron is one of the most fiddly and frustrating figures I've dealt with, like, ever... and this is coming from a guy who loves Generations Blitzwing.

FOC was weak overall, but most Generations figures that came afterward have been quite good, in my opinion. Take Leader Magnus. He's all hollow, all the time, but still pulls it off surprisingly well.

Yeah, I see FOC as an all time low in quality but the brand rebounded since giving us some very nice and solid figures. The plastic is better than before and the size is right as well.

I do like leader Magnus. I also like Metroplex a lot...and while quite flawed, I like leader Jetfire as well...probably because Classics Jetfire was equally flawed and the leader one looks the part better. Outside of those, I haven't been particularly impressed with Generations since 'the glory days'. Springer and Sandstorm are solid, but not OMG!!!! I probably like Blitzwing better and he's seriously flawed. I dunno, maybe MP ruined me or maybe I'm just losing interest in TFs in general again. I still think the figures just aren't as impressive as they were, though.

Kibble wrote:I do like leader Magnus. I also like Metroplex a lot...and while quite flawed, I like leader Jetfire as well...probably because Classics Jetfire was equally flawed and the leader one looks the part better. Outside of those, I haven't been particularly impressed with Generations since 'the glory days'. Springer and Sandstorm are solid, but not OMG!!!! I probably like Blitzwing better and he's seriously flawed. I dunno, maybe MP ruined me or maybe I'm just losing interest in TFs in general again. I still think the figures just aren't as impressive as they were, though.

I dunno, if you're going to tell me Universe Galvatron is better than Generations (voyager) Springer or Sandstorm, I think you might just be cray cray.

Kibble wrote:I do like leader Magnus. I also like Metroplex a lot...and while quite flawed, I like leader Jetfire as well...probably because Classics Jetfire was equally flawed and the leader one looks the part better. Outside of those, I haven't been particularly impressed with Generations since 'the glory days'. Springer and Sandstorm are solid, but not OMG!!!! I probably like Blitzwing better and he's seriously flawed. I dunno, maybe MP ruined me or maybe I'm just losing interest in TFs in general again. I still think the figures just aren't as impressive as they were, though.

While I agree that the Generations figures following FOC (ex: Scoop, Rattrap) have not made me go OMG, Evasion mode Prime did and so did TAV Drift, and Combiner Wars Superion and Menasor (and Slog's alt mode, but thats something else).

Blackjack and Cosmos are also great and are a nice reminder at the potential of the Scout Class that started back in Energon.

But to be fair, I wasnt wowed more before either,especially with the "classics" line. I was far more fascinated by the engineering behind the animated line, HFTD Starscream and the First Edition Prime figures than pretty much anything else.

I actually find this year's generation line to be one of the all time best years in the whole "classics" saga. The plastic is top notch, Hasbro uses more paint than Takara, the toys are bigger than ever (and can get even bigger ), and everything is effortless while still detailed and as fun as ever.

And better yet, this is finally the year where the Generations Line is front stage for the entire Transformers Brand, and it feels like it.

Galvatron isn't very fun, but he's by no means a bell-weather for the entire time period. New "Classics" styled figures molds, at that time, weren't getting anything but deluxe scale. What they pulled off in most cases is superior, engineering and quality wise, to what we have today by most objective measure.

This also doesn't mean that we don't have comparably good stuff today, as Will pointed out with stuff like Cosmos. I don't think they're so much like Energon/Cybertron Scout class as they are bigger, slightly nicer Cyberverse Commanders. Later generation scouts in movie lines were much more the idealized goal of that now defunct size class than today's Legends. And they are not the same size class. If you really think so, you haven't held one of each of them near each other lately.

I have more to say on this but the words aren't flowing. In short, no one here is wrong at all, but most of you are going to extremes with your points.

ScottyP wrote:Galvatron isn't very fun, but he's by no means a bell-weather for the entire time period. New "Classics" styled figures molds, at that time, weren't getting anything but deluxe scale. What they pulled off in most cases is superior, engineering and quality wise, to what we have today by most objective measure.

I disagree, and counter that you're conflating complex with 'better', at least in the engineering department. On quality, if you're shooting straight and talking about the sturdiness of the plastic itself, I don't think there's any significant difference between 2007 and today. (There might be a difference in the thickness of that plastic, but that's more an engineering complaint.)

At the end of the day, I just view those lines differently, even though one informs the other. Very different design philosophies and real world circumstances back both.

ScottyP wrote:This also doesn't mean that we don't have comparably good stuff today, as Will pointed out with stuff like Cosmos. I don't think they're so much like Energon/Cybertron Scout class as they are bigger, slightly nicer Cyberverse Commanders. Later generation scouts in movie lines were much more the idealized goal of that now defunct size class than today's Legends. And they are not the same size class. If you really think so, you haven't held one of each of them near each other lately.

Today's Legends Class splits the difference between the older Legends & Scout Class figures, a smart move on Hasbro's part. It feels balanced to have 2 carded and 2 boxed product classes.

I do love my RTS Windcharger though, and I'm glad to see United Rumble/Frenzy reissued in the TAV line. What a wacky assortment that line is shaping up to be.

ScottyP wrote:I have more to say on this but the words aren't flowing. In short, no one here is wrong at all, but most of you are going to extremes with your points.

I think the moral of the story is we're all wrong. TIL ALL ARE WRONG.

megatronus wrote:I'm glad to see United Rumble/Frenzy reissued in the TAV line. What a wacky assortment that line is shaping up to be.

Oh man, love lines like that, its awesome. Cant wait for those.

And yeah, Scotty, today's legends are smaller than the scouts of old, but I find that the goal of the scout class is well represented. Smaller TFs but of characters available only for that class, which can stand alongside your deluxes and bigger TFs, with sculpts offering comparable detail, paint apps and transformation. I feel Powerglide, Cosmos and Blackjack convey that notion well, especially compared to any CW deluxes.

megatronus wrote:I disagree, and counter that you're conflating complex with 'better', at least in the engineering department.

Agree to disagree then Were RotF being talked about, wholeheartedly agreed. Pointless complexity even on the "simpler" transformations. For the Classics styled toys of the rough '08-'11 era, I feel like they struck a more appropriate balance of design, challenge, fun, and intuitiveness than today's toys. Lacking "challenge" is a throw-away, because as you mentioned, different times, circumstances, etc hold. However, I think even today there are design things that could be and would have been done better in the past, and that this would hold true more often than the opposite.

Orion Pax and Trailbreaker/Hoist come to mind as some examples. Given the same size and budget/material constraints, I think Trailbreaker and Hoist are equivalent to toys we got in the aforementioned earlier era, by most objective measure. Orion Pax is not. He's full of weird compromises, like the hot/cold/moody waist connector and odd complexity in his back/shoulder/arm assembly. Scoop comes to mind as well with how friction is relied upon too much to get the alt mode to stay together, which is the same problem Blitzwing's robot mode has. Would some pegs or panel connections be that hard or beyond budgetary constraint? Always possible, but I'd be surprised.

Anyway, this is fun but not sure how much more I have to say on it. Til all are wrong, indeed!

I thought that the bonus for TFCC sub 4 confirmed as a CW deluxe mold and an Autobot. Liiike a while ago. Eh, I'm hoping for Xaaron or Guzzle.

Me again...I figured I'd post because I just pulled out leader Magnus again tonight...and while I still like the figure quite a bit, I realize it's kinda based on a curve compared to the junk they've been putting out. Had this come out toward the end of 'the glory years' it would be ripped to high hell. Hollow, tabberiffic transformation, no wrist articulation or ankle tilt, wonky arm articulation, no waist swivel, no rim paint on the wheels...and all this at the leader size class that's been shrunk down to ultra class and raised to a supreme class price point. SMH...

Just making sure, are the golden years 2006-2012?

Kibble wrote:Me again...I figured I'd post because I just pulled out leader Magnus again tonight...and while I still like the figure quite a bit, I realize it's kinda based on a curve compared to the junk they've been putting out. Had this come out toward the end of 'the glory years' it would be ripped to high hell. Hollow, tabberiffic transformation, no wrist articulation or ankle tilt, wonky arm articulation, no waist swivel, no rim paint on the wheels...and all this at the leader size class that's been shrunk down to ultra class and raised to a supreme class price point. SMH...

I think it has ankle tilts though, right? They're on everything, even the Devastator guys with no elbows. This is because Hasbro probably accidentally read too much into the old "ankle tilt" meme, therefore Devastator is our fault

Oh, uh, that went off on a tangent. I think Magnus is a fun toy and I can forgive most of the things you point out, which are fair, objective measures of where its quality doesn't hold up compared to older figures. Size and price point mentions are just economic reality, same goes for the hollow-ness, so while those are still objective comparison operators, I find them a touch unfair to bring up repeatedly. Just curious, what did you think of MP Magnus? If you don't have it, sounds like he may have been more of what you were looking for (though he also has wonky arm articulation and lacks a waist joint).

That said, yeah, it needed a waist. I'd rather have non-integrated, parts-forming cabs then no waist joints these days if it were a choice of one of the other. Might just be me though.

william-james88 wrote:Just making sure, are the golden years 2006-2012?

I'm sure this is different depending on who you ask For me, toy wise, it was 2005 - 2009. Comics wise, it's 2011-present. TV show wise, it's long gone.

I have MP Magnus, and am mostly a fan. I do wish it was properly scaled in bot mode like all the other figures post MP-10, but what can you do? Most prefer the alt mode scale for this particular exception for some strange reason...I dunno, my figs spend 99% of their time in bot mode so that's the mode that takes scale priority for me. I did think of that, though, that MP Magnus doesn't have waist articulation either, but it's due to the transformation that it was sacrificed. With the leader fig, they just skipped it like they did with the wrists...no design factor, just nah. The feet tilt forward and back, but I didn't see side to side. Maybe I overlooked it, but I did give a quick check before complaining about it, and didn't easily notice it.

I do want to reiterate, I do like leader Magnus...I think it's one of the better non-MP figures they've done in a long time. But if they had released it right after Generations Warpath and Wheeljack, I dunno how I'da felt about it, which was my point. I'da probably thought WTF...

The glory years? I'd say it was pretty much the Generations line after the movie was released, up until the FOC figs...when the engineering was at its peek. The actual Classics line, pre-movie, are cool enough figures, but they don't have the same level of engineering and cleverness the Generations line had. The Classics transformations did at least solidly lock into place, though, instead of the loose friction pegs everything uses now. That tends to annoy me.

Kibble wrote:
The glory years? I'd say it was pretty much the Generations line after the movie was released, up until the FOC figs...when the engineering was at its peek. The actual Classics line, pre-movie, are cool enough figures, but they don't have the same level of engineering and cleverness the Generations line had. The Classics transformations did at least solidly lock into place, though, instead of the loose friction pegs everything uses now. That tends to annoy me.

So Universe 2008 Inferno would be the begining for you, right? I must admit, he does tab in amazingly well.

Kibble wrote:I have MP Magnus, and am mostly a fan. I do wish it was properly scaled in bot mode like all the other figures post MP-10, but what can you do? Most prefer the alt mode scale for this particular exception for some strange reason...I dunno, my figs spend 99% of their time in bot mode so that's the mode that takes scale priority for me.

Gotcha. I was pretty good with the bot mode scale. Maybe a touch tall, but the heft worked out for my tastes. Really did feel like a MP-10 could hide in there pretty effectively had they gone that route, and it would have worked out to be very close to the same size.