The Energon Pub

This is my opinion and comments and criticism are welcome for discussion

First off I want to start out by saying I think of myself as being the beast wars generation, I was born in 87 so even though I watched G1 and had G1 Optimus Prime toy, I barely remembered the show it wasn’t until beast wars that my serious love of transformers kicked in.

I’m the kinda guy that says Monkey not Truck (even though I think movie prime was the greatest incarnation of Optimus ever!) which brings me to my next point. I think its time to give the whole G1 thing a rest.

G1 had its time in the sun let it be recognized and left as G1 instead of every single new piece of transformers work coming out as a rehashing of those characters (refereeing mostly to the comic books). The recent cartoons from R.I.D onwards have been rather annoying and mostly childish dribble, RID was at least half decent. (im not talking about toys though, TFs have been getting better and better every year toy wise with the exception of Animated which is really dislike.)

I’ll most likely get a lot of flak for this but I got all 5 seasons of the Beast Era as well as the box set with all the G1 episodes but I think Beast Wars in particular was a by far a SUPERIOR show, character and story wise.

In my opinion all these new comic series that are based on G1 is getting tired. Let G1 be done with. Instead of rehashing the G1 universe over and over again why don’t they continue it. And why not, all the other Transformer universes that spawned RiD and the Unicron trilogy don’t have the stature that the G1 universe had.

Let G1 rest while continuing its legacy by continuing the stories of the transformers of that universe and by that I mean the Beast Wars/Beast Machines. I know the storyline of Universe was supposed to carry on from beast machines but not all of us had access to the comics and it didn’t even conclude (I could be wrong on that point though I’m not sure)

What I would really like to see is more comic books and a TV show that picks up from Beast Machines. Id prefer the G1 universe to be continued down that path instead of constant rehashing and re doing. I think its time to bring back Maximals and Predacons to the light, more new toys and with transformer toy technology being as advanced as ever what applications can that have to new beast form based toys what possibilities are out there if the toy technology, look and detail of say the movie line was applied to beast bots.

And the stories that could be out there, I mean I just finished reading The Gathering and Ascending comics and bloody hell! They were fantastic so much tension and action excellent looking characters and such. And the political aspects of the comics as well really brought in something that is lacking from the transformers from all the past series. i really hope they make a 3rd BW comic series

To sum up I think aside from the movie series that Autobots and Decepticons should be put to the side and bring back Maximal and Predacons. It also gives us a rest from so many years of predominantly vehicle based transformers. New beast bots with new toy technology (NO GIMMICKS) could be real refreshing.

But yeah that’s my opinion, what does anyone else think.

cheers

I too am a fan borne of the Beast Era, and though I do agree that Beast Wars was one of the best Transformers series to date (slowly being equaled by Animated) I must nonetheless disagree with your sentiment that G1 should be phased out.

We have to recognise the debt we owe to series such as G1. I know for a fact that I would never have stumbled upon Beast Wars some years back if not for an errant memory of Optimus Prime transforming on the TV from roughly '89.

Beast Wars owes some of it's greatest episodes by history and backstory built up in G1.

Contentious amongst most fans is Beast Machines. Most fans agree that Beast Machines is a good series on it's own merits, but when used as a sequel to Beast Wars it just flops. The problem inherent with it was that it changed certain characters completely around to how they were in BW. Factor in fugly beast and robot modes, plot holes one could drive Unicron through and the fact that it was devoid of all humour, and BM simply wasnt a worthy successor.

The primary reason G1 gets rebooted continuously via comics, new series and so forth is because there is a lot of room for stories to propagate for robots that transform into everyday vehicles in a society that is dominated by motorized transportation as western society is.

Consider also that many transfans are G1 diehard fans. Eliminate or discontinue G1, even if it is another reboot and they get angry.

Having many continuities, G1, BW and others, helps attract fans. Fans of G1 trickle into BW and vice versa, A fan of one continuity is generally also a fan of one or more of the others.

While I agree with you that the Maximals and Predacons should have their own distinct and continuing spotlight, there is certainly more then enough room in the fanhood to support G1 reboots and offshoots.

I'll have to agree wholeheartedly on the gimmicks though, having Prime useless outside of SUPERMOOOOOOODE! And 4 minute transformation sequences (per transformer) with yelled attacks and flashing neon seizure lights gets more then a bit tiresome after the first time.

Blasphemy.

I sorta agree...
I guess...
Though I can't get enough of Classics and Alternators.
we shouldn't forget about them forever.
every once in a while we should have something for the long times fans(25th aniversary of G1, 10th anniversary of BW)
I don't want us to have a G1 related line every year, I don't want G1 repaints for every line, I want our stuff to be different.
But for now, we are celebrating the 25th anniversary of G1 and we have to celebrate!
Moar classics and alternators.
I'm not gonna want to phase out until:
-a few more alternators(wasn't there gonna be a Mini Cooper Bumblebee? want)
-more classics, we're still missing a few more characters
-more masterpieces(Grimlock )
I'm not a G1 fan. I love animated and BW a little bit more than G1. a leetle teensy bit more. but I still love G1 and we can't just phase it out.
though I do want another Beast series. But the cars robots will live on forever.

I don't consider myself a "purist" so much as I don't care for Beast Wars. Never had much interest in furry critters changing into robots.

And Hasbro seems to be able to have the movie and animated lines running at the same time. A Classics cartoon would be spiffy. (Don't read much of the comics, I'm not a Furman fan)

Phase out G1???


That's crazy-talk!




I am an older fan, and I have a soft spot for G1....Although I am not a "purist" since I give all things TF a chance, I enjoy Beast Wars for it's many fine attributes as well! While Beast Wars was better written and executed, G1 will always be #1, even with all it's horrendous animation errors and story-arc-nightmareishness, it's still pure gold!

great replied

first off the gun, im not saying phase out G1, i absolutly LOVE classics and alternators fantastic toys and thank god they made em coz the only G1 i got is an optimus prime and to be honest those old toys dont really have an appeal to me not even to collect, so classics gave me the chance to own some classic characters in great new bods, G1 is great for what it was, WHEN it was. keep the classics coming i cant wait for the new ones.

the point im tryin to stress is, look at all the G1 related media thats out there, iv lost count as to how many G1 based comics have been done.

the autobot v decepticon shows of late are dribble, the toys are good when you look past the crappy gimmicks but at the moment looking at my collection i got enough optimus prime trucks and other assorted trucks than i can poke a stick at.

i want to see the G1 universe continue but i dont want to see anymore spin off universes and crappy cartoons. bring back the quality that BW started at the least! (i totaly dislike animated, its the most child aimed of the lot so far, but thats another discussion)

i can recognize that BW n BM owes alot to G1 and thats great! but in all honesty if the G1 lore says that the decendants were Maximals and Predacons, why not run with it! bring more of those classic characters into synch with the evolution of the cybertron of that universe.

to me the latest TF cartoons have been at best bad attempts at rehashing the G1 story set up, its getting tired and annoying because its getting worse every series.

i say if you old schools love your G1 characters so much why not evolve the characters of G1 and bring them into the current cybertron of that universe bring em to the BW/BM era.

cheers guys, keep the discussion going.

The problem with the bad rehashes of G1 is that they're not western productions ala BW, G1 and Animated. The style and writing are culturally different, and so it doesn't gel 100% with a western audience unless they have watched significant amounts of Anime (Read: more then me, which is to say barely three TV series ).

The problem with picking up where BW left off is that BM essentially killed it.

You have everyone resurrected. The planet is techno-organic. Oh, it had an organic core all the way along that was never mentioned. Oh, also, Predacons dont exist anymore. Also, everyone is happy and they all live happily ever after.

It's a bit hard to invent new story when all the threads are tied up, all the characters are happy and it's a nice perfect little universe.

The only room for continuity in the BW universe, sans a reboot, is by going the route of Prequel.

But I digress from the main point of contention. Currently the only western production in progress is Animated. Granted it is aimed at kids, but the writing is absolutely top notch if you approach it with a sharp eye and a sharper mind. Take Black Bumblebees post Here (WARNING! CONTAINS SPOILERS!) about the episode Sound and Fury to see what I mean. Despite being one of the weakest episodes it still manages to put up a social commentary and character development coupled with some great references to prior series.

Currently I'd say the chances of a BW continuity production outside of further comics is fairly low, in a few years time, things may change.

One can only hope they dont butcher it again like they did with BM.

I love Beast Wars with an undying passion. It rules, and I agree that they should have more Maximals, Predacons, and continue where the Beast Machines left off.

Why you son of a........ Phase out G1? Ignore G1? Of all the nerve!

Nah, seriously, I'm just kidding. While I am a G1er all the way, I like and appreciate the other incarnations of the Transformers universe. But realistically, G1 being first set the tempo and scope of the entire mythos, so it's pretty tough to get decide now to ignore it or let it alone. If you were going to create a new TF series where would it begin? Would they come from Robotron instead of Cybertron? Because as soon as you introduce an origin story, you're stuck with largely the G1 formula again. You know, Autobots fleeing Decepticon agression and so on. It's hard to distance the franchise from it's beginnings, and so G1 will always be around in some form.

I get what you're saying, and at times I agree. But even the 2007 movie with all its fans and detractors screaming about how different it is from G1 is taken straight from the G1 playbook. Some of the minor details are changed and there are a few new additions like that stupid Cube which mass-shifts even though mass shifting was left out of the movie because it was unrealistic, but the same basics are all there. What I'm saying basically is that you don't have to like the basement of your house, but it was laid down first, and it supports the rest of the building, so you have to appreciate what it does.

Razor One wrote:The primary reason G1 gets rebooted continuously via comics, new series and so forth is because there is a lot of room for stories to propagate for robots that transform into everyday vehicles in a society that is dominated by motorized transportation as western society is.

I think this is pretty much the extent of it. The idea of robots turning into vehicles and various devices is the real cool factor that people like, not to mention still being fairly unique. Robots turning into animals and insects *is* cool in its own way, IMHO, but the idea of animal shapeshifting is as old as the hills in SF... it's just not a unique enough gimmick anymore.

And if you decide to stick with the vehicles/devices notion, you then add on to that the simple fact that G1 introduced *so many* characters that if you tried creating all new ones you'd likely end up bumping into one of the old archetypes anyway. It's sort of a case where even if you *tried* doing something different you probably couldn't, since G1 already came up with the vast majority of the logical concepts.

Which means that if you are going to do a new series, you may as well do a reboot using G1 as a base to start from.

I think all the beast Stuff was an expeiriment in it's own. Looking at what they Started in the G1 era with Laserbeak, Ravage, the Dinobots , Insecticons, Predacons, Terracons and so on , they wanted to see if they could spawn a series based of the idea of animals alone. So they did and Which it did Do well for those such as yourself who are 90's kids and were either too young for G1 or not born yet. But thats just it, all the TF universes began with G1. All the ideas and concepts they had for all the other generations stemmed from G1. All the Animlas in G1 spawned the idea for Beast Wars/Machines, the Headmasters from G1 spawned Takara's Headmasters, The idea and incarnation of Unicron Spawned the Unicron trilogies. MOSTLY All the names in other Generations came from G1, They didnt do too much in trying to make up new names they just used old ones. It all comes down to G1. It's like the Bible of the Transformers , the blueprint, the holy past from which all stories began and came from. They will always be taking ideas from G1 and mixing it up. As far as bringing back beast Wars?.....I dont know maybe in another 10-15yrs .
But You cant erase and forget what strated phenomena.

im not that much of a purist but i like g1 the most. i dont really like beast wars and beastmachines but thats my opinion. just like the way you like beast wars over g1. the 1st tf series i ever saw was cybertron and i thought it was the best thing ever. i was in love with cybertron. i like cybertron who cares? you dont like g1 who cares? its youre opinion to say beast wars is the best and others to say g1 is the best and stuff like that.

g'day

great discussions happening here

maybe its the way i write, i tend write the way i think (and only i know the way i think) but im getting a vibe that people seem to think i want G1 phased out, a comment was made that everything should be reboots. thats exactly my problem though, all these series that have come after BM has been a pretty much a terrible attempt at being G1

now im not saying lets forget G1 entrily, come up with a new planet, new factions, new leaders or what ever, no not at all. what my base line argument is rather than seeing constant rehashing of the G1 set up or more and more comics that are constantly being based on G1 characters, instead lets continue the G1 universe the way that cybertron has evolved.

i want to see the classic characters come back into the fray guns blazing in bot more and fierce as anything in beast mode!

ahah some people say wait problem! cybertron is organic now and they all live happy ever after....that doesnt have to be the case.

im not sure if i should give my opinions on BM (i liked it but not as good as G1) but to sum it up i dont think that all bots on cybertron became the style of techno organic that the band of maximals were, ive thought of them as more of the perfect balance sort of the perfect creation that say an event like a sudden planet reformate would achieve which would be a chaotic event. so i really dont think other maximal re activated in that style of body. whos to say that if they traveled back to earth and became transmetals or the origional style of beast mode.

a new beast wars tv series/comic doesnt have to take place on cybertron. why can cybertron go through another catastrophic event that kills off the "techno organic" slowly reverting back to its origional state. what if the planet wide reformate was the only possible last ditch resort to rid megatron. some people say that predacons dont exist anymore. you cant be sure of that, we're not given enough information as to what exactly went down during megatrons rise.

at the end of the day, G1 is the "bible' or as someone put it, the basement which the house is built on. i say lets brings those much loved characters into the new cybertron in an age of maximals and predacons.

how cool would it be to see the origional predacons forming predaking in transmetal 2 bods (i saw a cool kitbash of it) or how cool would it be to see the sweeps or seekers in what ever flying creature suits their personality, or seeing warpath in some big transmetal elephant with a crazy looking 3rd mode tank. the possibilities i can think of for G1 characters to be reborn into new maximal/predacon bodies is limitless.

cheers

ahah some people say wait problem! cybertron is organic now and they all live happy ever after....that doesnt have to be the case.

im not sure if i should give my opinions on BM (i liked it but not as good as G1) but to sum it up i dont think that all bots on cybertron became the style of techno organic that the band of maximals were, ive thought of them as more of the perfect balance sort of the perfect creation that say an event like a sudden planet reformate would achieve which would be a chaotic event. so i really dont think other maximal re activated in that style of body. whos to say that if they traveled back to earth and became transmetals or the origional style of beast mode.

It kind of does for it to be logically consistent with itself. When you end things on a happily ever after note, and the go "But then...", well... the inner writer within me groans with such apathy and revilement that I feel nigh unclean merely entertaining the thought of such.

Consider various fairy tales that were sequelised after their respective and traditional "Happily Ever After" endings.

Cinderella 2
The Little Mermaid 2

Creating a happily ever after ending and then going ahead and breaking that by going "And then..." like a certain Scene illustrates is generally a bad move.

It also kind of goes without saying that if you reformat an entire planet, everything on that planet goes with it as well as we can see by the sickening purple/green combo ground and pretty pink flowers growing everywhere. We can also presume that everyone post-reformat would be Techno-organic as a matter of course since the entire series was all about achieving "Balance" between Technology and Organics, and you cant exactly do that when you can choose either way.

Transmetals only really make sense if you expose them to alien influenced quantum radiation or the little explained alien Transmetal 2 Driver, both of which arent exactly options.

a new beast wars tv series/comic doesnt have to take place on cybertron. why can cybertron go through another catastrophic event that kills off the "techno organic" slowly reverting back to its origional state. what if the planet wide reformate was the only possible last ditch resort to rid megatron. some people say that predacons dont exist anymore. you cant be sure of that, we're not given enough information as to what exactly went down during megatrons rise.

The problem with that approach is that a two year story arc winds up being relegated to the likes of a cheap and corny plot device, especially when you count in that Vector Sigma was very big on the whole "Techno-Organic is teh futar!" angle.

As to the subject of Predacons, although it's true that we're never given any info whatsoever on Megatrons rise to power, we can infer that Predacons simply dont exist at all in the BM continuity.

Predacons are never mentioned. Ever. The word Predacon never even comes up in the series outside of brief mentions from the Tech Specs.

The closest we ever get is Vehicons and their "Generals", almost all of whom are resurrected Maximals and the one Predacon General (Waspinator/Thrust) is never referred to as being a Predacon.

The other problem with the scenario of G1 bots being reformatted into Beast era bodies is that it introduces a thematic dissonance between being robots, that turn into animals, living and fighting on a technological world trying to "Blend in" with their surroundings.

Animals on a world wholly covered by metal is simply not Robots in Disguise, it's Robots sticking out like sore thumbs and saying "OH LOOK! SHOOT ME!".

We also have to recall that the G1 bots have mostly retired by the BW era and that only a "few" cons were granted amnesty and of those few most had also gone into retirement with the exception of Ravage. We can presume that the bulk of the Decepticon army were dealt with in some manner that precluded retirement (Imprisonment? Banishment? It's never elaborated on what exactly happened to those that didnt get Amnesty).

And as for why a comic or series has to take place on Cybertron, it's frankly the Transformers homeworld. The only other place in all continuities of major importance where the Transformers slug it out is Earth, and that's because it's our home.

A series can start on another world if it has some kind of Importance to the Transformers and if there are Decepticons/Predacons for the Autobots/Maximals to fight. Generally you achieve this by forcing both sides to engage in a fight and crashland there (G1, Animated, Beast Wars) or by simply slipping them in without anyone really noticing and have them suddenly appear for no adequately explained reason (Unicron Series, RID? [havent seen the RID pilot but I have seen odd episodes]).

All in all, what I think is being missed here is that the Transformers are Robots in Disguise. They adopt the shapes of Local Life forms to blend in with their surroundings and give themselves a combat and covert edge as well as nominal travelling abilities beyond walking and running.

Had Optimus Primal landed on a world where the major life forms were crystalline xenomorphs that sang at ultra-high frequencies and caused nasty headaches for carbon based biologicals, then that's undoubtedly what he and his team would have wound up transforming into.

To a degree I agree with you RagingBull. The transformers storyline should be built upon and develop into something bigger. We see a new transformer line every couple of years and what does it entail? Another version of Optimus Prime, another version of Megatron. And those two alone calls for a Hot Rod/Rodimus, Galvatron, and Ultra Magnus. I want to go back to G1 and experience more stories, more character development. But above all: newer characters. And in some way I think the newer tf lines can provide that. I'm all for drawing in new fans with a brand new genre with a story all its own and characters to flesh it all out. But you can't just phase out G1, thats where the prominent support for transformers is located. I'd say bring in brand new leaders to lead the Autobots and Decepticons. I'm all for bringing in Maximals, Predacons, Vehicons. Heck, bring in more factions. I think in that the transformers universe can truly come alive when all of a sudden the Maximals turn on the Autobots, the Predacons turn on the Decepticons (that wouldn't be a surprise though, I think), and the Vehicons suddenly find themselves being the saviors against the Quintesson invasion or Unicron suddenly popping up out of nowhere for the umpteenth time. And all this going on in the same cottonpickin' story line.

Trasformers Universe is not a continuation of Beast Machines but rather it's exactly what the name sugests. There are characters from EVERY Universe brought into one place for some war.

Personally I don't pay that much attention to Universe. As far as I'm conserned it's nothing more than a "bad repaint toy line"

There was a series that was supose to take place after Beast Machines where characters transformed into what looked like techno-organic vehicles. The series would have brought back Depth Charge who died in Beast Wars along with several other G1 characters in new forms.

There are different rumors for why the series never aired and the toys never made but my guess is because Beast Machines probly had really low rateings. I'm one of verry people it seems who actully liked Beast Machines.

I would like them to go back and continue the G1/BW/BM story line rather than makeing all these new storys. RID was the best series after the beast era. The Unicron Trilligy as a whole sucked arse. Armada by itself should be burned, burried and never see the light of day again. Energon by itself was OK if you completly ignore the fact it's supose to be a continuation of Aramada and Cybertron isn't that bad if you view it as it's own series. And it's not hard to do with Cybertron sence the Japanise version Galaxy Force really is it's own series. The movie was good if you completly forget it has any conection with Transformers. Optimus Prime I like, everyone else in the movie looked like crap.

And no design isn't everything to me. I allso think the Beast Machines and Animated designs look like crap but I actully like thoughs series. Why? Because they've actully taken the time to give their characters some kind of personality. The movie transformers, the only character in that movie who really got some good screen time was Bumblebee for the Autobots and Barricade, Frenzy, Blackout, and Scorpinok for the Decepticons. The rest of thoughs characters didn't get enough screen time to establish their characters to the audience and because of that the movie became all about the humans and a single Transformer, Bumblebee. The huge fight at the end because of the crappy designs looked like trash falling out of a dumpster into a garbage truck. I could not follow worth a damn who was fighting who that entire sceen. The fights earlier in the movie like Bumblebee vs. Baricade were OFF CAMERA. Insted of focusing on the title characters battle they showed the kids fighting with Frenzy and completly ignored Bumblebee and Barricade.

I like Beast Machines because in my opinion it was a good continuation of Beast Wars, the beast era as a whole is still the most well wrighten series of the Transformers universe.

Animated right now is a little touch and go for me right now. There are some episodes I really like (The Pilot, Total Meltdown, Thrill of the Hunt) some I really hate (Blast from the Past and Nanosec) and other episodes that are not bad but not that great either.

The movie, the main reason I hate it is because they had two hours to get me to like these characters and they didn't even introduce me to these characters. I don't know a damn thing about these freaking characters. I could learn more about the movie Transformers by reading their toy bios than watching the movie and that's just sad. I'll one really big example. Movie Jazz, had they taken the time to really introduce Jazz, establish his character, and all that I might have actully cared about him when Megatron riped him in half. As it was his only memerable line was "What's cracking little bitches" Yea that's really enough to tell me who Jazz is, not. I cared more about Bumbleebee when he lost his legs and when he was captured by Sector 7 and he doesn't even talk!

Seriously I don't want them to make a sequill to the Transformers Movie. I want to completly remake the Transformers movie and actully make it about the Transformers, not the humans. Humans should be part of the story when they're on Earth but they should never draw the focus away from the title characters. None of the cartoon series has done that. Even with the horrible humans from the cartoons that we all hate, at least they don't draw the focus off the Transformers. (Except for the pilot episode for Armada but I allready said that series sucked)

The Transformers movie was really a well wrighten movie but it was a well wrighten movie about humans being invaded by giant hunks of scrap metal from space, it was not a movie about transforming robots.

Saber Prime wrote:Seriously I don't want them to make a sequill to the Transformers Movie. I want to completly remake the Transformers movie and actully make it about the Transformers, not the humans.

Personally, I want them to make a sequel that now can focus on the Transformers without alienating everyone who isn't a hardcore geek, because they already dealt with the realistic ramifications of alien robots coming to Earth in the first movie.

Saber Prime wrote:The Transformers movie was really a well wrighten movie but it was a well wrighten movie about humans being invaded by giant hunks of scrap metal from space, it was not a movie about transforming robots.

Um... that's what Transformers *is* about when Earth is involved... humans being invaded by transforming robots coming to fight their war here. I still don't understand why people rail against the writers actually portraying that with a more logical and realistic narrative, where the civilians are scared and suspicious and our governments and soldiers actually try to fight back.

I find the alternative of "humans are suddenly OK with giant robots openly walking around" to be silliness you're stuck having to wink at. Not to mention it pretty much cuts off all the interesting idea space of seeing how society has to deal with a contingent of secret robots among them.

And I find the other alternative of "giant lifeforms fight each other while humans run around screaming" to be boring because it's already been done to death in dozens of old B-Movies. Can't we move away from that already?

Jeysie wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Seriously I don't want them to make a sequill to the Transformers Movie. I want to completly remake the Transformers movie and actully make it about the Transformers, not the humans.

Personally, I want them to make a sequel that now can focus on the Transformers without alienating everyone who isn't a hardcore geek, because they already dealt with the realistic ramifications of alien robots coming to Earth in the first movie.

Saber Prime wrote:The Transformers movie was really a well wrighten movie but it was a well wrighten movie about humans being invaded by giant hunks of scrap metal from space, it was not a movie about transforming robots.

Um... that's what Transformers *is* about when Earth is involved... humans being invaded by transforming robots coming to fight their war here. I still don't understand why people rail against the writers actually portraying that with a more logical and realistic narrative, where the civilians are scared and suspicious and our governments and soldiers actually try to fight back.

I find the alternative of "humans are suddenly OK with giant robots openly walking around" to be silliness you're stuck having to wink at. Not to mention it pretty much cuts off all the interesting idea space of seeing how society has to deal with a contingent of secret robots among them.

And I find the other alternative of "giant lifeforms fight each other while humans run around screaming" to be boring because it's already been done to death in dozens of old B-Movies. Can't we move away from that already?

Um... you completly missed the point of that rant.

I'll make this short and really easy to understand.

G1 Was about Transformers with humans serving as Suporting characters.

BW/BM Had no humans

RID Was about Transformers with humans serving as suporting characters.

Armada The pilot was all about three human children finding Mini-cons but every episode after that they were just suporting characters.

Energon was about Transformers with humans acting as suporting characters.

Cybertron was about Transformers with humans as suporting characters. Cybertron even had the episode "Invasion" where the millitary fought the Decepticons and the entire time they still didn't draw the focus away from the Transformers.

Animated probly has the most human interaction of the cartoons and even they don't draw the focus away from the Transformers.

Movie was about a bunch of humans with Transformers acting as the suporting characters.

Every single Trasnformers series no matter how much the humans got involved in the Transformers war never drew the focus away from the title characters. The movie drew the focus away from the title characters to the point where it was no longer about the Transformers.

I feel like I'm still waiting to see a live action Transformers movie. What we saw was a live action movie with little more than a guest appearance by the Transformers but the movie was not about them. I don't know what the hell that was but it sertainly wasn't Transformers.

The thing about sequills they're useually not as good as the first movie and for this they don't have to do much to make it worse than it is. They have ALOT of work to do if they intend to do better for the next one. It would be easier to just start over like they did after the George Clooney Batman thing.

I'll give Transformrs 2 a chance if it ever comes out. Maybe with the Autobots allready on Earth they can actully take back their movie. If not then I'm definatly not watching Transformers 3 (assumeing they EVER get that far.)

I'm exspecting it to go the way of Spider-man only alot faster. First movie was different but good, second movie screwed things up, and third movie wasn't worth watching at all.

Saber Prime wrote:I'll make this short and really easy to understand.

Yeah, thanks for being insulting. I got your point just fine. I'm saying I didn't have any problems with the TFs and humans getting joint focus in the movie for all the reasons I stated.

Out of the TV series you listed, only Animated feels to me like it's close to a good portrayal of what having giant robots on Earth would really be like. The IDW comics have a really good portrayal, though, and they also prominately feature several human characters.

Saber Prime wrote:The movie drew the focus away from the title characters to the point where it was no longer about the Transformers.

Um. How wasn't it about the Transformers? The whole *plot* was about the effects of the TFs coming to our planet and looking for the Allspark. The vast majority of scenes that focused on the humans were either about them fighting a TF, interacting with TFs, or preparing to fight or interact with them. The TFs and their conflict were very much the driving motivation through the whole movie.

Saber Prime wrote:I feel like I'm still waiting to see a live action Transformers movie. What we saw was a live action movie with little more than a guest appearance by the Transformers but the movie was not about them. I don't know what the hell that was but it sertainly wasn't Transformers.

It was about a look at how humans would realistically react if Transformers came to our planet, couched in a way that everyone could be drawn into being interested in who these strange new aliens were, not just the existing fanboys. I think that approaching the matter from a human perspective, rather than weird alien characters we don't have a reason to care about yet, was a very good idea that kept it from being just another fringe "geek movie".

And now that that intro *has* been made, the second movie is free to focus on the TFs more, now that both the geeks and non-geeks have a reason to care.

In short: I think people need to accept that the movie was written to try to make the concept of TFs appealing to more than just existing mecha/TF geeks, and I think they did a good job in choosing how to go about doing that, for the most part.

Saber Prime wrote:I'm exspecting it to go the way of Spider-man only alot faster. First movie was different but good, second movie screwed things up, and third movie wasn't worth watching at all.

Er. I thought that Spiderman 1 was good but still trying to find its feet, and that Spiderman 2 was the best of the trio since it got to go full bore with the idea. (I agree that Spiderman 3 was the worst of the bunch, but I still liked it.) In fact, I feel mostly the same about the X-Men movies... first was good, second was awesome, third kind of dropped off.

You still don't get it. or you wouldn't have said this.

I'm saying I didn't have any problems with the TFs and humans getting joint focus in the movie

I'm saying the reason why I think the humans and Transformers DIDN'T get joint focus. All the focus is on the humans, not the Transformers.

I think Transformers Animated has joint focus on both. Energon has joint focus on both. The movie has no focus on the Transformers as characters. For the movie the Transformers are a plot device. You said it yourself it's about the HUMANS REACTION TO THEM. There's a huge difference between being about them and being about someone elses reaction to them. One makes them actual characters, the other turns them into a plot device and a Plot Device is what the All Spark should have been but that plot was not told verry well.

The Transformers never got any sceen time. How is anyone supose to care about these characters if they don't know who the hell they are.

I know who the human characters were, I care about them, why because they actully got screen time.

Out of the Transformers characters Bumblebee was the only one in the movie who got any screen time. He's the only one I knew in that movie and the only one I cared about in the end.

The Transformers needed to be in the entire movie. The movie needed to be shown from both points of view not just the view of the humans.

Here's a couple good example of the crappieness that is the Transformers movie, what the hell were Starscream and the other Decepticons doing all that time Megatron was frozen? When exactly did they arrive on Earth?

What the hell was Optimus and the other Autobots doing while Bumblebee was alone on Earth. Why even send Bumblebee alone to a straige alien planet in the first place?

Who the hell are the other Transformers. What's their personality like? Who the hell knows they never got any screen time.

The vast majority of scenes that focused on the humans were either about them fighting a TF, interacting with TFs, or preparing to fight or interact with them.

There lies the problem. Where were the scenes with the TFs fighting eachother? Where were the scenes with the TFs preparing for battle? They didn't exsist, it was all about the humans not the Transformers.

I think that approaching the matter from a human perspective, rather than weird alien characters we don't have a reason to care about yet

And we still don't have a reason to care about. How will we ever care about them without seeing things from their perspective? We can't and that's why the movie failed to be about the Transformers.

At this point I'm exspecting Transformers 2 to be a remake of the exsisting Transformers movie told from their perspective. They told the human's side of the story now lets see the Transformers side of it, lets see who the hell these characters are. Let's make it so by the time Jazz dies the audience will actully care about it.

The only things wrong in Spider-man was his different origin and shooting webs from his hands insted of building web shooters. Green Goblins costume was vastly different but I never liked the original Green Goblin to begine with. They say everyone allways likes the original version they grew up with but in this case I hated the original version I grew up with and saw movie Green Goblin as a huge inprovement.

Spider-man 2 completly ruined Doc Oct's character, tried to tell too much of a story in too short a time, and had Spider-man looseing his powers for what seemed like no reason at all.

Spider-man 3 I nearly avoided ever going to see because I hated the 2nd movie and heard many bad things about it. I then decided when the DVD came out that the bad things were only their opinions I should watch it myself and then I regreted that decision. Spider-man 3 turned out to be WORSE than everyone said it was.

After 2 desasters in a row I won't watch Spider-man 4. Not unless of course it turns out they really will have Jim Carrey as Carnage but I seriously doubt he'll be in the movie.

I still like the first Spider-man but the sequills are horrible.

X-Men the only thing I didn't like about the sequills is they still haven't introduced Gambit and Nightcrawlers mysterious disapearance in 3. Other than that I like all the X-Men movies.

Oh and in the case of Blade. The sequills are actully better than the first movie. Blade 2 has the same basic plot as the first movie with the added plot of the Reapers and it shows flash backs from the first movie so you're not missing much if you never watch the first Blade. Blade Trinity is the best of the 3 movies.

Saber Prime wrote:The Transformers never got any sceen time. How is anyone supose to care about these characters if they don't know who the hell they are.

So... what exactly were all the scenes with Bumblebee and Sam/Mikaela, the scene with the Autobots landing and explaining their situation, Frenzy's various spy forays, the Autobots trying to blend into suburbia, Blackout in the opening sequence, Scorponok in the desert, the Autobots vs. Sector Seven, Barricade vs. Bumblebee, the entire last third of the movie, etc., etc.?

I will say that I wish the Decepticons got more screen time, but saying the TFs didn't get *any* screen time (or even saying they only got a little screen time) is just complete exaggeration.

Saber Prime wrote:Here's a couple good example of the crappieness that is the Transformers movie, what the hell were Starscream and the other Decepticons doing all that time Megatron was frozen? When exactly did they arrive on Earth?

What the hell was Optimus and the other Autobots doing while Bumblebee was alone on Earth. Why even send Bumblebee alone to a straige alien planet in the first place?

Neither one had any bearing on *this* story. The driving point of the plot was that both the Autobots and Decepticons had come to Earth to look for Sam and the Allspark. Therefore, the movie quite rightly started as close to the point where both sides actively started looking as possible. While your questions are valid and interesting ones, it would have been pointless to focus the first part of the movie on all the backstory that took place beforehand... that's a whole other prequel story in and of itself, and wasn't relevant to understanding the driving plot of the movie.

Saber Prime wrote:Where were the scenes with the TFs fighting each other?

Barricade vs. Bumblebee and the entire last third of the movie?

Saber Prime wrote:Where were the scenes with the TFs preparing for battle?

The scenes with the Autobots regrouping in the desert? The initial Mission City scenes? The Decepticons regrouping on the Dam? (My only gripe would be that the latter scene wasn't longer.)

Saber Prime wrote:How will we ever care about them without seeing things from their perspective? We can't and that's why the movie failed to be about the Transformers.

I disagree *completely* here. When I watched the movie I knew only the barest details about Transformers. When I came out of the movie I was really psyched about the characters and immediately demanded my friend to let me borrow his old TF stuff to watch/read because I thought it was all really cool.

And even after watching G1 and reading most of the comics, I still find Movie Prime the most interesting Optimus, and Movie Megatron the second-most interesting Megatron (with the Animated one coming in first).

I don't think the movie was perfect... I personally would have axed the whole subplot with Glenn entirely, had Maggie and her hacker team carry all of his main-plot-relevant parts, and used the time saved for a scene with the Decepticons similar to the desert one for the Autobots. But everything else I found enjoyable/interesting.

Saber Prime wrote:Spider-man 2 completly ruined Doc Oct's character, tried to tell too much of a story in too short a time, and had Spider-man looseing his powers for what seemed like no reason at all.

I loved Doc Ock in Spiderman 2, personally. I liked the fact that instead of being your typical evil genius type, he was a nice guy who made the mistake of letting both the inherent power of his inventions and his grief over losing his wife overcome his reason until it was too late.

And the film implied strongly through the soul-searching Peter was going through and the scene where he visited the doctor that he was losing his powers from major stress and self-doubt.

I'm hoping the live-action movies will do exactly as the comics did. The first movie, just like the first few comic issues did focus a little more on the human's perspective on robots invading earth and blending in. Sopme human organizations discovered and sought to master the transformer technology much to their own demise (in both movie and comics) and THEN the focus was undivided on the Transformers. I felt the movie portrayed exactly what would happen if it were to occur for real even if some humans are too shocked to scream bloody murder and run for their lives *ahemMikaelaahem*.
My opinion is still the same: you can't phase out G1 because it is the backbone of the whole Transformers genre.

Saber Prime wrote:The only things wrong in Spider-man was his different origin and shooting webs from his hands insted of building web shooters.

Thats not the only thing that was different.MJ's characterization was completely wrong, the guy that killed Uncle Ben did not die when Peter caught up with him, the Green Goblin chaptured Gwen Stacey not MJ, the spider that bit Pete was originaly not a geniticly modified spider......the list go on and on.

But I will say that the changes worked for the film.

Saber Prime wrote:Spider-man 2 completly ruined Doc Oct's character, tried to tell too much of a story in too short a time,

But the character was pretty spot on as to how the character has been protrayed in the comics.

Saber Prime wrote: and had Spider-man looseing his powers for what seemed like no reason at all.

Also happened the same way in the comics.

Saber Prime wrote:X-Men the only thing I didn't like about the sequills is they still haven't introduced Gambit and Nightcrawlers mysterious disapearance in 3. Other than that I like all the X-Men movies.

The only thing I didnt like was that we didnt see the X-men in the order that they joined the team.It took till the 3rd film to see the last two original members of the X-men.Gambit didnt join till the 90's so I was ok with not seeing him.At least his name was used in part 2.

Saber Prime wrote:Oh and in the case of Blade. The sequills are actully better than the first movie. Blade 2 has the same basic plot as the first movie with the added plot of the Reapers and it shows flash backs from the first movie so you're not missing much if you never watch the first Blade. Blade Trinity is the best of the 3 movies.

I liked all 3 but I thought the first was the best.