The Energon Pub

In ROTF, it seems like they were "born" Decepticon, that is the transformer had no choice which side he was on. The example being Jetfife and Wheelie, both switching sides because they were unhappy being Decpeticons (although I can't imagine not wanting to be a Decepticon ). But I got the impression that Jetfife had no choice in being a Decepticon, he was just made that way, maybe because he was a seeker... However, in the graphic novel Defience, it was like the transformers chose to fight for Megatron.

It was exsplained in the first movie that they're only called Decepticons because they quite literally are deceptive. It's not really a race like it's made out to be in other series, the name is just a description of what they do. Just like Autobots is actully short for Autonimus Robots.

Decepticons are probly split as a faction. There are the ones who are truely loyal Decepticons who choose to be Decepticons. And then there are others like Wheelie and Jetfire who for some other reason didn't have a choise. I'm not sure about Jetfire but according to Wheelie's description he was a Decepticon simply because of his size.

Think about it. I normally don't trust toy boxes but I've seen how big this guy is and it makes perfect sence. If you're a tiny little robot stuck in the middle of a war between giant robots, one side are protectors and the other destroys, who are you going to side with? If you side with the Autobots the Decepticons are going to kill you first chance they get, but if you side with the Decepticons the Autobots wouldn't try to kill a defenceless little mech.

It's kinda flawed thinking sence he's only usefull as a spy and after the war ended all the useless little robots would probly find a new use for the spark eating Megatron, that is if the Decepticons won.

Megatron: I'm hungry, Wheelie, get in here!

Wheelie: We're all out of energon sir, I'll go get some more.

Megatron: No need. (Grabs Wheelie and tears his spark out.)

Now if only we could do that with G1 Wheelie.


Now if the Autobots win no matter what side Wheelie was on he'd be perfectly safe and they'd be less likely to force him into dangerous spy missions where he could be viciously attacked by... a poodle. Sorry had to make fun of the fact it allso said in his description that he's easily scared by small dogs.

I think ROTF Wheelie is ugly as hell but personality wise, I allready like him better than G1 Wheelie, no rhyming!

As a side note before the main issue...I'm with you Rial, I labsolutely love the new Wheelie. I was bashing the new one even before I saw the film just because of his G1 namesake. This new one was born with a bulseye on his forehead when they gave him that name but his personality is awsome. I hope to Primus he's in TF3. I love the little guy.

Now as far as alignment goes, I think it would probably be an easier thing to sort if you looked at it in terms of Dungeons and Dragons alignment: Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral etc.
Ironhide is a good example. We know he's out for the greater good but his concern for collateral damage is nowhere near as high as Primes. Ironhide = Chaotic Good. Prime and Ratchet = Lawful Good without question. Megatron = the epitome of Chaotic Evil.
Jetfire would be more Lawful Neutral and Wheelie strikes me as Chaotic Neutral. The Neutral folks being more easily swayed at the outset to go one direction or the other until such time as they can take stock of their actions, their role and the end focus of the group they are aligned with and whether it fits in with their own beliefs. In (the new) Wheelies case, he'll side with whoever will either NOT squash him like a bug or at the least give him some acknowledgement of worth. Old Wheelie is screwed no matter who he sides with, he just stands less chance of being shot by his own team-mates siding with the Autobots.

So no,I don't think they are born Decepticons. Just like humans they start out a "blank slate" and the path they choose is likely determined by lifes circumstances. Myself, I started out down the road of Lawful to Neutral Good but after the things I've seen/done/experienced, if s*** hit's the fan and it's everyone for themselves I'd toe the lines between Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil. Probably leaning towards Ironhides ideals but still a bit more ruthless.

On the same note, why is everything created by the Allspark Cube evil?

They aren't evil.

They're stupid and violent and primative, but not evil.

My view on it was that they since they were just animated machines and appliances, they did have the intelligence and capacity for thought the the bigger TF's had built into them.

But another big theory was that in the last movie we were told that most all technology was reverse-engineered from Megatron.
So the idea is that since he's evil, the animated machines are evil too.

Siren Prime wrote:They aren't evil.

They're stupid and violent and primative, but not evil.

My view on it was that they since they were just animated machines and appliances, they did have the intelligence and capacity for thought the the bigger TF's had built into them.

But another big theory was that in the last movie we were told that most all technology was reverse-engineered from Megatron.
So the idea is that since he's evil, the animated machines are evil too.

Allthough the same is true in Animated and not everything that was animated by the Allspark in Animated was evil, or stupid... well Wreck-Gar was but he wasn't primitive and violent.

Yeah, but we're talking movie-verse where all the little machines brought to life by the allspark seem to attack any living thing they run into.

But yeah, if you're taliking about the Animated universe, then no, transformers brought to life by the power of the allspark are not evil.
In fact most of them just go about there own business. Albeit they area bit inconsiderate of the humans around them, but that's cause they usually don't know better and don't realize that they're causing trouble.

They do, however, get corrupted by the Decepticons at times. Like the Animated Constructicons.

Siren Prime wrote:Yeah, but we're talking movie-verse where all the little machines brought to life by the allspark seem to attack any living thing they run into.

But yeah, if you're taliking about the Animated universe, then no, transformers brought to life by the power of the allspark are not evil.
In fact most of them just go about there own business. Albeit they area bit inconsiderate of the humans around them, but that's cause they usually don't know better and don't realize that they're causing trouble.

They do, however, get corrupted by the Decepticons at times. Like the Animated Constructicons.

I was just useing that as a means to exsplain that just because Megatron is Evil doesn't mean that everything reverse engineered from him would be.

Actully if you think of them as his decendents then I guess the saying "The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree" would apply to the movie universe.

At any rate there could be any number of reasons why they're all so agressive. (better word than evil, but spelled wrong.)

Rial Vestro wrote:

Siren Prime wrote:Yeah, but we're talking movie-verse where all the little machines brought to life by the allspark seem to attack any living thing they run into.

But yeah, if you're taliking about the Animated universe, then no, transformers brought to life by the power of the allspark are not evil.
In fact most of them just go about there own business. Albeit they area bit inconsiderate of the humans around them, but that's cause they usually don't know better and don't realize that they're causing trouble.

They do, however, get corrupted by the Decepticons at times. Like the Animated Constructicons.

I was just useing that as a means to exsplain that just because Megatron is Evil doesn't mean that everything reverse engineered from him would be.

That's true.
Because in animated most of the city's technology is reverse-engineered from Megatron too, but when they come to life that do go on the attack.

Execpt for that episode where they were all under Decpticon control, most of the robots "brought to life" just sort of amble along doing whatever they want.

I had mentioned earlier in the thread that they can reverse engineer technical aspects of something but it would be kind of a stretch to engineer "evil".
For myself, despite coming from a lineage where alcoholism is prevalent, I am not an alcoholic nor has it ever been an issue with me. I did a number of illegal substances in my day as well and quitting those was easy too. The Habitual tenedency is strong in my family but not over-powering or all consuming and we are dealing with the same type of thing with theses guys being born "evil", at least that's how it seems to me.
(and while I will confess that I still am a smoker I do also acknowledge that I'm doing so by choice. Tonight, however, would not be a good night to tell me to "choose" to quit and tomorrow isn't looking to good either. no joke)

I understand.
My grandpa died from cancer caused by smoking though, and though it isn't certian that you or anyone else will encounter the same fate, I'd rather have a friend like you stick around.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm not really into the whole all machinery takes after Megs theory.
I was just mentioning it as a possiblity.

I'm more for my own theory that they are just primative and young.
When human build their electronic devices they don't build the advanced cybertronian minds that the big TFs have into them.

Basically they are just mindless little machines that are suddenly infused with a lifeforce.

I dont know why but I thought of all the little kids on the Americas Funniest Home Videos program. I couldn't help thinking of all the little buggers who get their hands on a bat or a golf club and make those astounding on-target crotch shots that make folks cringe. They aren't making those shots on purpose they just happen to be unguided little forces of nature doing maximum damage at the perfectly wrong time. I don't know if that helps the whole perspective on things or not.

T-Macksimus wrote:I dont know why but I thought of all the little kids on the Americas Funniest Home Videos program. I couldn't help thinking of all the little buggers who get their hands on a bat or a golf club and make those astounding on-target crotch shots that make folks cringe. They aren't making those shots on purpose they just happen to be unguided little forces of nature doing maximum damage at the perfectly wrong time. I don't know if that helps the whole perspective on things or not.

A fantastic analogy. XD

Yeah, hey for all we know the little appliance TFs could just be playing. XD

think about it. you wake up one day. you know nothing, but your right hand is a missle launcher and yur left hand is a rotory saw. tell me yur not gonna be like awesome and fire off a few shots.

I believe (movieverse anyway) transformers are inherantly chaotic, but not evil.

The impression that i got from the films, Books and comics was that it was the characters choice because in the first film prime mentions about those who didnt join megatron persished and these infants are pretty much the same they are the equivialnt of children it is how they what the learn that effects them as far as i have seem.

I think the question also applies to the little protoforms/whatever they were in those pods aboard the Nemesis in ROTF. You know, the ones that will die without more energon?

Seems to me the argument could be made that they've been sort of brainwashed from birth. They might be 'true believers' but I don't know if 'evil' would be a valid category. They'd be born Decepticons, but they could understand what they do as trying to be 'good'. Same way if you took a puppy and trained him that it made Daddyhuman happy to have the puppy attack, the puppy isn't 'evil'--it's trying to make Daddyhuman happy.

HK, if you think it; I can *over*think it.

I think it has more to do with their protoforms, before their even born, because if you really pay attention the autobots mainly have blue eyes and the decepticons have red eyes, Now would they be able to change the color of their optics? I dont know. But I think it has alot to do with before their even born.

jeddalo wrote:I think it has more to do with their protoforms, before their even born, because if you really pay attention the autobots mainly have blue eyes and the decepticons have red eyes, Now would they be able to change the color of their optics? I dont know. But I think it has alot to do with before their even born.

I totally see what you're saying. And to sidestep the dreadful risk of reprising *every* horrible Freshman Comp abortion paper I've ever had the misfortune to read, I guess it really then becomes unanswerable.

When does 'life' begin for a protoform, as in, when does the determination get made for Autobot or Decepticon? Is it like gender--that it's in place from the beginning--or is it like getting a 'soul' in which it might happen some time later? This is a question even I don't choose to bang my head against for very long. Leastways, not right now.

HK, ouch. I did warn you about the overthinking bit.

Maybe it's the ones that are simply aggressive in personality that are more likely to become Decepticons?
I think with the Decepticon protoforms (a guess because I haven't seen the movie yet) that the aggression is likely being 'bred' into them.
Sort of like how illegal dog and cock fighters will take animals with the most aggression and breed them, over time creating a type that is far more aggressive then when it started out.

It could be that Megatron takes fliers, groundlings and whatever with the most aggression and is 'breeding' them to create his army.
And the red eyes of the 'Cons is likely a 'breed trait,' but not a species trait.

But all this is just speculation of course

I know in Beast Wars it was possible to alter a protoform's programming and make it "Evil" but then that protoform could override their programming and become "good". Example is Silverbolt.

I dunno if that would apply to the Movieverse or not. As far as the allspark cube bringing stuff to life and then that stuff being evil. I think one of the writers said it was just the primitive energy of the cube. Didn't the cube create the transformers? Not to get into a debate about creation, but I assume once it created them, they evolved over time to become more complex. So the Cube just brings things to life in a primitive state. They really don't know whats going on, they just know that they have a gun and they can shoot at people.

Only thing that ever bothered me was that the All-spark makes a Xbox 360, a Mountain Dew Machine and a Escalade Steering wheel come to life.. why not the escalde itself? Of course that would mean he'd transform with the pretty girls inside..soo yeah..

Tyrannotaur wrote:I know in Beast Wars it was possible to alter a protoform's programming and make it "Evil" but then that protoform could override their programming and become "good". Example is Silverbolt.

Actully Silverbolt was never reprogramed due to the damage that was done to his stasis pod, that's why it was so easy for him to join the Maximals while it was harder for Blackarachnia. Silverbolt was with the Predacons for a while only because he was activated at the same time as Quickstrike but he was never evil.

That would be like calling Skyfire evil who was with the Decepticons under simular circumstances. The idea being that both characters at the time they on their respective evil teams didn't know at the time which faction was good and which was evil and both soon realized "something isn't right with this team."

It wasn't a matter of Silverbolt being reprogramed and overrideing that programming it was simply that he ended up getting recruited with Quickstrike and later realized he was just on the wrong team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQfpOt06GVE

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Rial Vestro wrote:

Tyrannotaur wrote:I know in Beast Wars it was possible to alter a protoform's programming and make it "Evil" but then that protoform could override their programming and become "good". Example is Silverbolt.

Actully Silverbolt was never reprogramed due to the damage that was done to his stasis pod, that's why it was so easy for him to join the Maximals while it was harder for Blackarachnia. Silverbolt was with the Predacons for a while only because he was activated at the same time as Quickstrike but he was never evil.

That would be like calling Skyfire evil who was with the Decepticons under simular circumstances. The idea being that both characters at the time they on their respective evil teams didn't know at the time which faction was good and which was evil and both soon realized "something isn't right with this team."

It wasn't a matter of Silverbolt being reprogramed and overrideing that programming it was simply that he ended up getting recruited with Quickstrike and later realized he was just on the wrong team.

Ah yeah.. been a while since I watched the series.
If I remember right though, Dinobot was able to change his activation codes and thus switch sides easily. I think Rhinox did that once as well.

Tyrannotaur wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

Tyrannotaur wrote:I know in Beast Wars it was possible to alter a protoform's programming and make it "Evil" but then that protoform could override their programming and become "good". Example is Silverbolt.

Actully Silverbolt was never reprogramed due to the damage that was done to his stasis pod, that's why it was so easy for him to join the Maximals while it was harder for Blackarachnia. Silverbolt was with the Predacons for a while only because he was activated at the same time as Quickstrike but he was never evil.

That would be like calling Skyfire evil who was with the Decepticons under simular circumstances. The idea being that both characters at the time they on their respective evil teams didn't know at the time which faction was good and which was evil and both soon realized "something isn't right with this team."

It wasn't a matter of Silverbolt being reprogramed and overrideing that programming it was simply that he ended up getting recruited with Quickstrike and later realized he was just on the wrong team.

Ah yeah.. been a while since I watched the series.
If I remember right though, Dinobot was able to change his activation codes and thus switch sides easily. I think Rhinox did that once as well.

Changeing your activation code is not the same as being reprogramed. The protoforms were all reprogramed BEFORE they were activated. Even some of the ones that were Maximals were reprogramed due to damage to their stasis pods. Tigatron for example probly wouldn't be so in tune with nature like his is if he retained all of his original Maximal programming. Alot of his personality seems to come from his beast mode rather than his robot.

Allso Dinobot didn't so easily switch sides. It took him a LONG while to really earn the trust of his new team mates. Some took longer than others to earn his trust. But Dinobot was originaly a Predacon while Blackarachnia was technically a reprogramed Maximal not a Predacon. It wasn't really a matter of learning to trust her but trying to bypass her reprogramming.

I don't think Decepticons were born with the affiliation. Although a hatchling could be predisposed to becoming a Decepticon, if they are being directly bred from Decepticons. These new transformers are DNA based organisms. Hatchlings are not coming from the all spark after all. Also Decepticons do predate Autobots. In ROTF the Decepticon hieroglyphs are so ancient many Autobots are unable to read the language. So that means Autbots are not born Decepticons. Now the All spark seems to create some pretty destructive and violent transformers doesn't it? But even human children can be violently dangerous. If you gave a baby a loaded gun he would use it without thinking about it. In the 2007 movie Ironhide says; "Why are we fighting to save the humans? They're a primitive and violent race." And Optimus replies; "Were we so different?"

Two thoughts:

If they've been breeding/reproducing separately (Autobots making little Autobots; Decepticons making wee little Decepticons), after some amount of time, they'll actually BE different. Like dogs. Say Decepticons are Dobermans, and Autobots are, I don't know, beagles. They can still interbreed (would you call that a Dobeagle?) and produce viable offspring, but breed two dobeys and you're going to get dobey traits; breed two beagles and you're going to get beagle traits. With dogs, this also counts for personality--any long time dog owner will tell you that each breed has a really distinct personality. It seems that this might apply to two separate 'breeds' (I hesitate to call them 'races') of Cybertronians, couldn't it?

Now, again, you can take a dog and work it against its breeding. You can make an attack chihuahua with training. Dobeys have reputations for being mean, but because how they're raised in my family, they're all marshmallows. So you could have a Dinobot who could work against his 'breed' and become Maximal. You can see that he struggles with it, though--he is *always* more physically aggressive than the other Maximals, and always in favor of more Predacon tactics. So even though he switched affiliations, there was something in the blood that showed through.

HK, yea verily, apparently quite Shakespearean-ly, as well. Forsooth, poor Dinobot.