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Desslok2201 wrote:

munkimus prime wrote:Maybe hasbro got rid of Scrappers Elbows because Scappers Elbows may loosen over time and then Devy won't be able to stand. Unless Scrappers arms clip together at the elbow for transformation.

I doubt it. They still use ball joints and they weaken over time. The thought that Scrapper might be mistransformed in all the Hasbro pics is the best theory I've heard yet, but I won't be surprised if he really just doesn't have elbows.

I've seen Ben's collectables review which shows that Scrapper really has no elbows.

I know Scrapper is the big talk for the distinction of Hasbro and Takara but we cant forget that Takara is redoing the elbow joints on most of the Constructicons, even those who Hasbro already gave elbows too. This tells me that its all a question of Budget on Hasbro's behalf and nothing more (especially not time, that would mean that the retooled head on the SDCC one would defy the laws of time and space).

And since it is a budget issue, then I definitely think that a price difference is in order. By buying Takara's version, we are telling Hasbro that we dont mind spending more for a superior product.

Billy-J is right, it's probably all down to cost. Hasbro has a price point with their "Titan Class" and it seems like, right now, it's at $149.99. That's what they figure people are willing to pay at general retail for a figure (or set) like Devastator in general. Takara Tomy doesn't constrain itself to rigid price-points like Hasbro, so they can have a lot of variance in paint apps and retooling in their figures, since each has an individual MSRP not based on a size class, but on the production cost for each particular figure. This said, it's a shame Hasbro didn't think to use the Takara version as the SDCC exclusive version. That would have made a LOT more sense, as the SDCC version is collector oriented and also carries a premium price, something adult collectors are largely prone to accept, especially when it means a superior product.

Wolfman Jake wrote:Billy-J is right, it's probably all down to cost. Hasbro has a price point with their "Titan Class" and it seems like, right now, it's at $149.99. That's what they figure people are willing to pay at general retail for a figure (or set) like Devastator in general. Takara Tomy doesn't constrain itself to rigid price-points like Hasbro, so they can have a lot of variance in paint apps and retooling in their figures, since each has an individual MSRP not based on a size class, but on the production cost for each particular figure. This said, it's a shame Hasbro didn't think to use the Takara version as the SDCC exclusive version. That would have made a LOT more sense, as the SDCC version is collector oriented and also carries a premium price, something adult collectors are largely prone to accept, especially when it means a superior product.

Thanks for the support and I totally agree on the mistake in using the Hasbro mold for the SDCC version. Because now, there is much less need for that toy to exist aside from it just being a random exclusive. People have the Hasbro version if they want a more affordable devastator and the takara version if they want to most optimal offering of the figure (with guns, retractable visor improved paint apps and improved joints). The SDCC version doesnt serve that much purpose to collectors unless they want chrome, but we already heard their opinions on that when Hasbro's Jetfire was released

Oh and thanks for expanding on the price point deal between both companies. To anyone wondering, there are a bunch of precedents for this, the most recent/well known one is Prime Breakdown. He was between two scales and since he didnt fit well within a price point by Hasbro standards, they just didnt use him in their line.

william-james88 wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:Billy-J is right, it's probably all down to cost. Hasbro has a price point with their "Titan Class" and it seems like, right now, it's at $149.99. That's what they figure people are willing to pay at general retail for a figure (or set) like Devastator in general. Takara Tomy doesn't constrain itself to rigid price-points like Hasbro, so they can have a lot of variance in paint apps and retooling in their figures, since each has an individual MSRP not based on a size class, but on the production cost for each particular figure. This said, it's a shame Hasbro didn't think to use the Takara version as the SDCC exclusive version. That would have made a LOT more sense, as the SDCC version is collector oriented and also carries a premium price, something adult collectors are largely prone to accept, especially when it means a superior product.

Thanks for the support and I totally agree on the mistake in using the Hasbro mold for the SDCC version. Because now, there is much less need for that toy to exist aside from it just being a random exclusive. People have the Hasbro version if they want a more affordable devastator and the takara version if they want to most optimal offering of the figure (with guns, retractable visor improved paint apps and improved joints). The SDCC version doesnt serve that much purpose to collectors unless they want chrome, but we already heard their opinions on that when Hasbro's Jetfire was released

Oh and thanks for expanding on the price point deal between both companies. To anyone wondering, there are a bunch of precedents for this, the most recent/well known one is Prime Breakdown. He was between two scales and since he didnt fit well within a price point by Hasbro standards, they just didnt use him in their line.

I think you guys are forgetting the timing issue. Hasbro might have preferred to use Takara's retools, but those were literally just revealed this weekend. SDCC is just 3 weeks away. That likely means SDCC Devastator has been off the production line for some time, and is either on a boat to the US from the factory or already state-side. I'm sure the time Takara takes to engineer the retools doesn't give Hasbro the wiggle room they need to pivot. Not at all.

On price... we'll see. I don't think the price differential will be greater than Unite Warriors Defensor, who has a whole new mold rather than elbow fixes/guns.

megatronus wrote:I think you guys are forgetting the timing issue. Hasbro might have preferred to use Takara's retools, but those were literally just revealed this weekend. SDCC is just 3 weeks away. That most likely means SDCC Devastator has been off the production line for some time, and is either on a boat to the US from the factory or already state-side. I'm sure the time Takara takes to engineer the retools doesn't give Hasbro the wiggle room needed to pivot. Not at all.

I still say it's possible TakaraTomy is using an earlier version of the design that was deemed too costly to make by Hasbro. Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

megatronus wrote:I think you guys are forgetting the timing issue. Hasbro might have preferred to use Takara's retools, but those were literally just revealed this weekend. SDCC is just 3 weeks away. That likely means SDCC Devastator has been off the production line for some time, and is either on a boat to the US from the factory or already state-side. I'm sure the time Takara takes to engineer the retools doesn't give Hasbro the wiggle room they need to pivot. Not at all.

On price... we'll see. I don't think the price differential will be greater than Unite Warriors Defensor, who has a whole new mold rather than elbow fixes/guns.

But how do you know these are retools and not simultaneously designed? It is the same design team afterall (please dont hate cause I forgot the name, but it's the same guy who designs the masterpiece line and the Starscreams in every TF line). I mean even the SDCC version has a different tooling so it shows that variations to the mold were planned all along by both companies. And as you pointed out, the one with the retooling is coming out before the retail version. So I would be more inclined to go with budget being the main cause here, it has a lot of precedent.

I just find the idea of retooling the same toy made by the same design team due to come out the same year (about) rather than the tooling being present at the preliminary design stage to be the less likely option to what happened.

william-james88 wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:Billy-J is right, it's probably all down to cost. Hasbro has a price point with their "Titan Class" and it seems like, right now, it's at $149.99. That's what they figure people are willing to pay at general retail for a figure (or set) like Devastator in general. Takara Tomy doesn't constrain itself to rigid price-points like Hasbro, so they can have a lot of variance in paint apps and retooling in their figures, since each has an individual MSRP not based on a size class, but on the production cost for each particular figure. This said, it's a shame Hasbro didn't think to use the Takara version as the SDCC exclusive version. That would have made a LOT more sense, as the SDCC version is collector oriented and also carries a premium price, something adult collectors are largely prone to accept, especially when it means a superior product.

Thanks for the support and I totally agree on the mistake in using the Hasbro mold for the SDCC version. Because now, there is much less need for that toy to exist aside from it just being a random exclusive. People have the Hasbro version if they want a more affordable devastator and the takara version if they want to most optimal offering of the figure (with guns, retractable visor improved paint apps and improved joints). The SDCC version doesnt serve that much purpose to collectors unless they want chrome, but we already heard their opinions on that when Hasbro's Jetfire was released

Oh and thanks for expanding on the price point deal between both companies. To anyone wondering, there are a bunch of precedents for this, the most recent/well known one is Prime Breakdown. He was between two scales and since he didnt fit well within a price point by Hasbro standards, they just didnt use him in their line.

And if I read another post bellyaching that such massive retooling aside from the paint app and additional accessories doesn't justify the difference aside from the extra postage/shipping..........I'm gonna bust a gasket

They may have been manufactured in the same industrial complex but ALL new different molds. AND...lay off Hasbro bashing...they have their own market to cater too........collectors like us are supposedly a minority as compared to the real kids..so well and good for a Devstar without added elbows for the components.Just like a Titan Metroplex without the added gun and paint apps. The target demographic is different.

I think since the Japanese TF market skews a little more toward the adult collector the changes were made to cater more towards their tastes.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:I think since the Japanese TF market skews a little more toward the adult collector the changes were made to cater more towards their tastes.

Agreed. I still like the Hasbro versions, But Takara does take the nice extra step for those able and willing to afford it.

While I have always supported the budget argument (along with the stability issues), there could also be a timing issue.

SDCC may be three weeks away, but Devastator is released in Australia this week.

Fenrir, this isn't so much about Hasbro bashing as understanding why different markets, served by essentially different companies, are getting different versions of what is 99% the same product. Hasbro has (self-imposed) price point restrictions to consider, as well as differing toy safety laws based on the markets they serve versus Takara Tomy. As for which Devastator came "first," I think we've all learned that the way HasTak operates over the past few years leans heavily towards "pretooling" instead of "retooling." When a new mold is made, they are also co-developing how to reuse as much as possible for another character or variation down the line. We don't know for sure without confirmation from the designers, but the way engineering like this usual works, is that you start with something MORE complex and then gradually simplify the design into the final product. It's much more likely that the design team made Devastator to the current specifications seen at the Tokyo Toy Fair reveal FIRST. Then Hasbro asked for some concessions to fit the production into their price point ($150.00 USD). The design team revised the design to fit Hasbro's needs, but went with their original work for Takara's market since they didn't have the same budgetary restraints. So, yes, the most likely explanation is that Devastator started life as the Takara version and then changes were made from there for Hasbro, meaning that Hasbro definitely had the time and option to pursue the Takara version for their SDCC exclusive, but for some reason decided NOT to go that route for their "premium" exclusive offering this year. Maybe it IS a matter of toy safety standards, or Hasbro just didn't think most buyers would notice or care. Without knowing the specifics, it's easy to see how the SDCC version seems more like a missed opportunity, knowing that it's aimed at a very different demographic (collectors) as compared to the mass retail release. I'm sure they're not going to have any trouble selling out all their Devastator stock later this year, regardless of the concessions their releases have made compared to the Takara Tomy version to be released later. The only people who really get pinched on this are the collectors (us) who will of course want the superior product and will have to shell out additional money to get it. Kids and parents buying for them won't care about a few missing elbow joints, guns, or a "shades optional" head sculpt. Again, I'm not bashing Hasbro, but helping people understand where these decisions come from and why they are made.

Wolfman Jake wrote:Fenrir, this isn't so much about Hasbro bashing as understanding why different markets, served by essentially different companies, are getting different versions of what is 99% the same product. Hasbro has (self-imposed) price point restrictions to consider, as well as differing toy safety laws based on the markets they serve versus Takara Tomy. As for which Devastator came "first," I think we've all learned that the way HasTak operates over the past few years leans heavily towards "pretooling" instead of "retooling." When a new mold is made, they are also co-developing how to reuse as much as possible for another character or variation down the line. We don't know for sure without confirmation from the designers, but the way engineering like this usual works, is that you start with something MORE complex and then gradually simplify the design into the final product. It's much more likely that the design team made Devastator to the current specifications seen at the Tokyo Toy Fair reveal FIRST. Then Hasbro asked for some concessions to fit the production into their price point ($150.00 USD). The design team revised the design to fit Hasbro's needs, but went with their original work for Takara's market since they didn't have the same budgetary restraints. So, yes, the most likely explanation is that Devastator started life as the Takara version and then changes were made from there for Hasbro, meaning that Hasbro definitely had the time and option to pursue the Takara version for their SDCC exclusive, but for some reason decided NOT to go that route for their "premium" exclusive offering this year. Maybe it IS a matter of toy safety standards, or Hasbro just didn't think most buyers would notice or care. Without knowing the specifics, it's easy to see how the SDCC version seems more like a missed opportunity, knowing that it's aimed at a very different demographic (collectors) as compared to the mass retail release. I'm sure they're not going to have any trouble selling out all their Devastator stock later this year, regardless of the concessions their releases have made compared to the Takara Tomy version to be released later. The only people who really get pinched on this are the collectors (us) who will of course want the superior product and will have to shell out additional money to get it. Kids and parents buying for them won't care about a few missing elbow joints, guns, or a "shades optional" head sculpt. Again, I'm not bashing Hasbro, but helping people understand where these decisions come from and why they are made.

*At et al, I ddin't shorten WMJ post so please don't hurt me..........*

The bane indeed to us collector WMJ. Kind of like the gotta catch 'em all to get our plastic crack fix.
We all know that Hasbro has to answer to the stock holders and stringent child safety rules. Sell in bulk and get it over with to recoup their investments. Of course R and D costs and advertising notwithstanding. At times some of their decisions are indeed weird or maybe there's some reason to that weirdness? And Japan.good old even weirder Japan that can sell a Sentinel Scorponok that doesn't transfor and still profit(?) from it. Decisions made on boh sides of the Pacific indeed makes your head spin.

We may never know what back room deals happened prior to releasing Devstar just like what I read about how it was Takara who pushed on their engineers to create Fortmax while Hasbro was kind of waffling ......

Hasbro bashing.....kinda getting old indeed. Everyone should criritcize if there really is an issue to point out.

Heck, really hated the FOC phase when TFs were released in such hollow and weenie sizes. Well now we later learned that plastic costs were waaaaaaaay up there to begin with......... Again the bane to us collectors. Ze price indeed! Can we do something about it? I guess, well we can be more frugal in buying which line that fits our tastes but aside from that......we just bite the bullet. Buy or not buy.

And there are times the most vocal of critics don't even make sense.........really......you know what I mean.....

Burn wrote:While I have always supported the budget argument (along with the stability issues), there could also be a timing issue.

SDCC may be three weeks away, but Devastator is released in Australia this week.

Congrats on that. Have you decided what you will do yet? Get him now and brag or wait for the Takara version?

Back to this interesting argument (if time is a factor) we do know that the time difference between a hasbro and takara release is not indicative of the extra time it may take for one version. Thanks to an e-bay seller who sold factory overstock, we realized that those toys were made in the very same chinese plant(s) and at the very same time since both versions of the toys (takara and hasbro) were available at the very same time through that e-bay page (Tankor, Whirl and Rattrap for instance).

Saying the extra months of release is the reason for the changes is like saying that this is how long it take to place a sticker and white dot on TAV Powerglide. We may have thought that before, but those revelations through the factory overstock taught us it wasn't the case. The truth is that at this very moment, even if they arent available at retail yet, there is a functional and finished version of the SDCC version, the Hasbro retail version and the Takara Tomy version and they all have mold variations. What we are talking about is engineering which is done early on in a toy's development so I dont think the release dates are indicative, especially when we know it wasnt indicative in the past.

I did wonder why Takara's products were offered later than hasbro's, ever since I found out that they were made just about simultaneously (or one right after the other) in the same plant(s), and the only thing I could think of was a timed exclusive agreement between both companies, pertaining to the mold.

william-james88 wrote:Congrats on that. Have you decided what you will do yet? Get him now and brag or wait for the Takara version?

I am intending to go on the hunt for the Hasbro version, maybe on Friday, I don't know. No guarantee stock will make it up my way despite it being Big W's major toy sale of the year.

It's either that or I wait for my pre-order at PremiumCollectables which unfortunately is scheduled for September. If I can cancel it, I might just switch it over to a pre-order for the Takara Tomy one and just have two ('cause honestly, if I could manage to snag the SDCC I really would go for all three modes on display)

Burn wrote:While I have always supported the budget argument (along with the stability issues), there could also be a timing issue.

SDCC may be three weeks away, but Devastator is released in Australia this week.

Yeah. Hasbro obviously wanted Devastator to be their big U.S. August retail release this year, something they've had most if not all years lately. It's highly probable they're just freakin' cheap, but it's also possible Hasbro needed the thing done sooner rather than later so they settled for some quick and dirty solutions on several of the figures. Meanwhile, Takara Tomy had many more months to continue refining the figures and came up with some more elaborate joints for the figures that still allow the combined mode to form identically.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

gavinfuzzy wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

The hands were supposed to have individually articulated fingers, like the current APS-01U one (the one with both Striker and Jetwing parts). Other figures of around the same time suffered the same fate of simplified designs, most notably Sideways, Rampage and Starscream. All because they were slightly over budget in a financial crunch.

If there's a cheaper route for a design, that doesn't compromise anything or can be worked around, Hasbro will take it.

Burn wrote:('cause honestly, if I could manage to snag the SDCC I really would go for all three modes on display)

Wow, you are quite fond of this guy then. Thats awesome, I am glad Hasbro and Takara made something you are super fond of. And now you have me curious, if you could get all three versions, which would you have in which mode. I am assuming SDCC for combined, Hasbro for vehicle and Takara for individual robots

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gavinfuzzy wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

The hands were supposed to have individually articulated fingers, like the current APS-01U one (the one with both Striker and Jetwing parts). Other figures of around the same time suffered the same fate of simplified designs, most notably Sideways, Rampage and Starscream. All because they were slightly over budget in a financial crunch.

If there's a cheaper route for a design, that doesn't compromise anything or can be worked around, Hasbro will take it.

Universe Hot Shot is another case similar to this, since the Takara version came with a pair of exhaust guns that could attach to the underside of the car's rear, fitting into a cut away slot in the plastic, whereas the Hasbro version not only lacked the guns but also lacked the open slot in the car rear's underside.

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:('cause honestly, if I could manage to snag the SDCC I really would go for all three modes on display)

Wow, you are quite fond of this guy then. Thats awesome, I am glad Hasbro and Takara made something you are super fond of. And now you have me curious, if you could get all three versions, which would you have in which mode. I am assuming SDCC for combined, Hasbro for vehicle and Takara for individual robots

Yep.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gavinfuzzy wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

The hands were supposed to have individually articulated fingers, like the current APS-01U one (the one with both Striker and Jetwing parts). Other figures of around the same time suffered the same fate of simplified designs, most notably Sideways, Rampage and Starscream. All because they were slightly over budget in a financial crunch.

If there's a cheaper route for a design, that doesn't compromise anything or can be worked around, Hasbro will take it.

Wasn't ROTF Leader Prime also supposed to have the gas tank gun like the TakTom version did?

Robogeek1973 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gavinfuzzy wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

The hands were supposed to have individually articulated fingers, like the current APS-01U one (the one with both Striker and Jetwing parts). Other figures of around the same time suffered the same fate of simplified designs, most notably Sideways, Rampage and Starscream. All because they were slightly over budget in a financial crunch.

If there's a cheaper route for a design, that doesn't compromise anything or can be worked around, Hasbro will take it.

Wasn't ROTF Leader Prime also supposed to have the gas tank gun like the TakTom version did?

Nope, that was a later addition by TakaraTomy. Japan initially got the same versions the rest of the world got, but it would get unique retools further down, like Buster Optimus Prime.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Robogeek1973 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gavinfuzzy wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wouldn't be the first time joints were eliminated between prototype and final, look at RotF Leader Prime!

Don't mean to sidetrack but this seemed like an interesting point. Was not aware of the prototype ROTF leader prime. What parts were changed?

The hands were supposed to have individually articulated fingers, like the current APS-01U one (the one with both Striker and Jetwing parts). Other figures of around the same time suffered the same fate of simplified designs, most notably Sideways, Rampage and Starscream. All because they were slightly over budget in a financial crunch.

If there's a cheaper route for a design, that doesn't compromise anything or can be worked around, Hasbro will take it.

Wasn't ROTF Leader Prime also supposed to have the gas tank gun like the TakTom version did?

Nope, that was a later addition by TakaraTomy. Japan initially got the same versions the rest of the world got, but it would get unique retools further down, like Buster Optimus Prime.

Ah ok, gotcha.

Burn wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:('cause honestly, if I could manage to snag the SDCC I really would go for all three modes on display)

Wow, you are quite fond of this guy then. Thats awesome, I am glad Hasbro and Takara made something you are super fond of. And now you have me curious, if you could get all three versions, which would you have in which mode. I am assuming SDCC for combined, Hasbro for vehicle and Takara for individual robots

Yep.

Might be better with two Takaras and the SDCC, since the Takara version's extra detail will make nicer looking alt (vehicle) modes, too. The generic Hasbro one is just so plain, almost looks unfinished.