The Energon Pub

Official Transformers toys are released in most of the world by Hasbro, and in Japan by Takara Tomy, formerly Takara. Takara, a Japanese toy manufacturer, produced the first toys that would become Transformers in Japan in the early 1980s. Hasbro saw these Diaclone and Micro Change Series toys and licensed them, creating the Transformers brand. Today, both companies perpetuate the toy line, but is it true to say that Takara (Tomy) Transformers toys are regularly better than Hasbro releases? This is the question we asked a number of collectors this week, and their contributions can be found below.

The Takara Version | Source Blog <- CLICK TO READ



All the best
Maz

I usually enjoy these TFSource articles, but this one I think could have been handled a lot better. It's nice to see different points of view on the subject, but I don't think everyone was answering the same question. The article seems to conflate the idea of objective superiority with subjective value. Which one was the thesis?

In my opinion, you can't argue that extra paint apps improve the overall look of a given figure. For the same price, would you pick up RtS Jazz or United Jazz? Exactly. Differences in plastic or paint colors used with an otherwise identical paint mask is of course down to personal opinion, as is how much more money one is willing to pay for their preferred look for any given figure. Every release is a case by case basis too. You can draw some generalizations (like Prime RiD vs. Arms Micron), but there really isn't much controversy to be found in such comparisons anyway. They're self evident. I don't think the article covered anything new on this "debate" at all. Personally, I'm happy that we have the abundance of choices we do as collectors.

Wolfman Jake wrote:I usually enjoy these TFSource articles, but this one I think could have been handled a lot better. It's nice to see different points of view on the subject, but I don't think everyone was answering the same question. The article seems to conflate the idea of objective superiority with subjective value. Which one was the thesis?

In my opinion, you can't argue that extra paint apps improve the overall look of a given figure. For the same price, would you pick up RtS Jazz or United Jazz? Exactly. Differences in plastic or paint colors used with an otherwise identical paint mask is of course down to personal opinion, as is how much more money one is willing to pay for their preferred look for any given figure. Every release is a case by case basis too. You can draw some generalizations (like Prime RiD vs. Arms Micron), but there really isn't much controversy to be found in such comparisons anyway. They're self evident. I don't think the article covered anything new on this "debate" at all. Personally, I'm happy that we have the abundance of choices we do as collectors.

This. Right on the bulleye!

The sources quoted are just an expert in the field as I am the artisanal cooking (meaning zilch as I'm in the medical field)

Biases, subliminal justifications will always rear its mark. Subjective preferences that's all the article presented.

Superior or subjective preference.

Full Definition of SUPERIOR c/o http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior

1
: situated higher up : upper
2
: of higher rank, quality, or importance
3
: courageously or serenely indifferent (as to something painful or disheartening)
4
a : greater in quantity or numbers <escaped by superior speed>
b : excellent of its kind : better <her superior memory>
5
: being a superscript
6
a of an animal structure : situated above or anterior or dorsal to another and especially a corresponding part <a superior artery>
b of a plant structure : situated above or near the top of another part: as (1) of a calyx : attached to and apparently arising from the ovary (2) of an ovary : free from the calyx or other floral envelope
7
: more comprehensive <a genus is superior to a species>
8
: affecting or assuming an air of superiority : supercilious

A product with extra features. Fits one of the definitions above. As TT more often has plus or minus blings.

The price? Superior also goes both ways as it can be more expensive or cheaper. Then again, what was lost when the price was decreased? Or what was added when the price was increased? Also, the price of most if not all TT products, including shipping matches the domestic release already.

Maybe Maz should have used "which version do you prefer?"

Taken as an article about collector options, I thought it was fine. Thanks for sharing the link.

Article tone was just fine to me. Would have been reinforced by a better variety of actual examples, such as some call-outs to some eras in between G1 and recent stuff (Beast Wars, A/E/C) where the distinction is even more varied. It also got boring by the end, then again, it's always a similar small group of TFW users that are gone to for opinions on these things that aren't going to comment on it here, so it's basically just blogspam anyway, wouldn't worry too much about it

Hmm, that's some very pointed feedback there and hopefully I can address some of it without sounding too defensive.

Regarding the use of experts, at no point in the article did I refer to the contributors as experts, they are just collectors I know who are willing to supply me with coherent and articulate points in either direction (or straight down the middle) in such a reliable and timely manner that I know I can depend on them for other collector input in an article that would otherwise end up just being my personal generally unwelcome opinion.

I guess the lack of Beast or AEC input is a result of my own interests not being in those areas, so I have struggled to meet and create such relationships with collectors of those lines, and as a result I don;t have many people who can reliably inform me of those lines to include. I also have virtually no photographic representation of those toys, and the photos are a huge part of these articles and my work to me. Dan Ghile and David Hochman certainly collect toys from those eras, but the way they interpreted the article question was up to them, and I certainly did not advise them to focus on specific eras.

On the subject of going to the same group of TFW users, for one thing I think almost all online Transformers fans have a TFW ID, whether they use it or not of course I do not know. I requested input from 12 collectors for this article, and here's how I know them:

- Dan Ghile - met on TFW in the UK discussion thread and see him in person regularly at UK pub meets, consider him a good friend. Same for Sid Beckett and Kit Tang. Jon Strong I've never met but he also became known to me through TFW.

- Allen Greenwood and Bryce Rutledge I did also meet on TFW and communicate primarily with them on Facebook. Allen and I became friends over Binaltech around 2003/4.

That's all the TFW contingent for this article, 6 of them, half of 12, so not at all the majority.

Martin Lund I have known for over a decade and we met on Yahoo Groups, he is a Danish collector and we have kept in touch primarily through emails and our interest in G1 variants over the years. The same is true of Jeremy Kaufmann who I met on Yahoo Groups almost 15 years ago now and I used to write for his old webpage Masterforce.org, and Facebook is where we talk since our Yahoo Groups became deserted. Michael Kingcaid I met on Facebook through his collection images and that's where we hang out. Duron Land I met through Facebook but mainly because of TF Talk (TFYLP) and I appeared on their excellent podcast, so we remained in touch. David Hochman is a Peruvian collector who I met through other Peruvian fans as I was purchasing minibots from Peru for a few years, and we communicate privately and have done for a while. Andrew "Hydra" Hall I think I first communicated with at BotCon in 2006 in person and occasionally we talk on Allspark but mostly Facebook. So no, these are not all TFW buddies. Duron, Michael and Andrew are relatively new to my articles and I am always meeting new collectors who I ask to contribute in order to keep it as diverse as possible.

Also, calling my posts blogspam I think is harsh, I have always responded to comments in my article threads where I thought I could contribute to the discussion or was asked a question, and I have done since 2001 when I first started posting stuff online. This is true of my presence on here, TFW, Allspark, NTFA, Ozformers, Transfanclub, Robot Japan, TFormers, Collect'All, Yahoo Groups, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Tumblr.

I am sorry some of you found the article pointless and boring, I personally had a great experience and thoroughly enjoyed reading the opinions and words of collectors I respect and whose opinions help me be more educated in my own.

All the best
Maz

Maz wrote:Hmm, that's some very pointed feedback there and hopefully I can address some of it without sounding too defensive.

Regarding the use of experts, at no point in the article did I refer to the contributors as experts, they are just collectors I know who are willing to supply me with coherent and articulate points in either direction (or straight down the middle) in such a reliable and timely manner that I know I can depend on them for other collector input in an article that would otherwise end up just being my personal generally unwelcome opinion.

I guess the lack of Beast or AEC input is a result of my own interests not being in those areas, so I have struggled to meet and create such relationships with collectors of those lines, and as a result I don;t have many people who can reliably inform me of those lines to include. I also have virtually no photographic representation of those toys, and the photos are a huge part of these articles and my work to me. Dan Ghile and David Hochman certainly collect toys from those eras, but the way they interpreted the article question was up to them, and I certainly did not advise them to focus on specific eras.

On the subject of going to the same group of TFW users, for one thing I think almost all online Transformers fans have a TFW ID, whether they use it or not of course I do not know. I requested input from 12 collectors for this article, and here's how I know them:

- Dan Ghile - met on TFW in the UK discussion thread and see him in person regularly at UK pub meets, consider him a good friend. Same for Sid Beckett and Kit Tang. Jon Strong I've never met but he also became known to me through TFW.

- Allen Greenwood and Bryce Rutledge I did also meet on TFW and communicate primarily with them on Facebook. Allen and I became friends over Binaltech around 2003/4.

That's all the TFW contingent for this article, 6 of them, half of 12, so not at all the majority.

Martin Lund I have known for over a decade and we met on Yahoo Groups, he is a Danish collector and we have kept in touch primarily through emails and our interest in G1 variants over the years. The same is true of Jeremy Kaufmann who I met on Yahoo Groups almost 15 years ago now and I used to write for his old webpage Masterforce.org, and Facebook is where we talk since our Yahoo Groups became deserted. Michael Kingcaid I met on Facebook through his collection images and that's where we hang out. Duron Land I met through Facebook but mainly because of TF Talk (TFYLP) and I appeared on their excellent podcast, so we remained in touch. David Hochman is a Peruvian collector who I met through other Peruvian fans as I was purchasing minibots from Peru for a few years, and we communicate privately and have done for a while. Andrew "Hydra" Hall I think I first communicated with at BotCon in 2006 in person and occasionally we talk on Allspark but mostly Facebook. So no, these are not all TFW buddies. Duron, Michael and Andrew are relatively new to my articles and I am always meeting new collectors who I ask to contribute in order to keep it as diverse as possible.

Also, calling my posts blogspam I think is harsh, I have always responded to comments in my article threads where I thought I could contribute to the discussion or was asked a question, and I have done since 2001 when I first started posting stuff online. This is true of my presence on here, TFW, Allspark, NTFA, Ozformers, Transfanclub, Robot Japan, TFormers, Collect'All, Yahoo Groups, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Tumblr.

I am sorry some of you found the article pointless and boring, I personally had a great experience and thoroughly enjoyed reading the opinions and words of collectors I respect and whose opinions help me be more educated in my own.

All the best
Maz

@ Maz

Correct. Nowhere did you state that the resource people involved are experts. But, in every article one presents, whether it be a scientific study to an interview ala JayWalking you do ask what their qualifications are.

Concerning TFs, you won't be asking, let's say a librarian or political science major. You go to your fellow collectors. Our fellow collectors, dare we say it, each want to portray themselves as an expert in the field hence my analogy with cooking which then boils down again to the never ending discussion of which is a superior product. Which ends as a subjective conclusion.

Maybe if presented as:

Collector A source person, preference G1 80s figure line especially the Takara releases or something to that effect. Collector B, loves doing kitbashes, prefers hasbro figs because they are like a blank slate which limits the creativity to the person's ability We'd be knowing their inherent biases in the issue. I hope you get my point as it is constructive input.

As for your other posts, I wish they were stickied. Especially on subjects like the past Joustra and other variant relases all through the years.

fenrir72 wrote:@ Maz

Correct. Nowhere did you state that the resource people involved are experts. But, in every article one presents, whether it be a scientific study to an interview ala JayWalking you do ask what their qualifications are.

Concerning TFs, you won't be asking, let's say a librarian or political science major. You go to your fellow collectors. Our fellow collectors, dare we say it, each want to portray themselves as an expert in the field hence my analogy with cooking which then boils down again to the never ending discussion of which is a superior product. Which ends as a subjective conclusion.

Maybe if presented as:

Collector A source person, preference G1 80s figure line especially the Takara releases or something to that effect. Collector B, loves doing kitbashes, prefers hasbro figs because they are like a blank slate which limits the creativity to the person's ability We'd be knowing their inherent biases in the issue. I hope you get my point as it is constructive input.

As for your other posts, I wish they were stickied. Especially on subjects like the past Joustra and other variant relases all through the years.

I have to respect your opinion and how you see it, although I disagree I won't labour my perspective on it. All I will say is that when I asked the people that have contributed, I did not approach them as collecting specialists in any area, I wanted to present their opinions as just that, the opinion of someone you might sit next to during lunch at BotCon, or share a drink with at Auto Assembly, or have a chat with on social media or messengers. Nobody on that list to me is considered an expert in any of the fields they commented on, they're just sharing their perspective which I felt would give the reader more than one voice to compare with their own. Had I done this purely from my own perspective, it might have sounded like I was acting as an authority and presenting my opinion as fact.

You basically hit the nail on the head when you said fellow collector. There was no further agenda or connotation in the term "contributor" than that. If you feel they have presented themselves as experts as opposed to a peer with a similar or disimilar opinion to yourself, that's up to each reader to decide and will depend on their interpretation of the tone and content. I probably cannot control that too much.

I also don't feel the article is a study with a conclusion, it doesn't go far beyond an opinion piece because that's all I ever wanted from them. I didn't expect to be able to present a final answer because I had no idea what each of them would come out and say. I was actually surprised how pro-Takara some of them ended up being. That's why I don't see them as experts, or think it's that accurate an analogy to compare them to a professional being quoted in a journal etc, their only qualification is that, like you, they like Transformers and collect Transformers toys.

These days I select contributors based on how reliable they are with providing coherent, well expressed content for me in the kind of last minute timescales I inflict on the poor buggers

Anyway, I really appreciate you taking the time to articulate your feedback constructively, and I hope I didn't come across as stubborn or defensive.

All the best
Maz

Maz wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:@ Maz

Correct. Nowhere did you state that the resource people involved are experts. But, in every article one presents, whether it be a scientific study to an interview ala JayWalking you do ask what their qualifications are.

Concerning TFs, you won't be asking, let's say a librarian or political science major. You go to your fellow collectors. Our fellow collectors, dare we say it, each want to portray themselves as an expert in the field hence my analogy with cooking which then boils down again to the never ending discussion of which is a superior product. Which ends as a subjective conclusion.

Maybe if presented as:

Collector A source person, preference G1 80s figure line especially the Takara releases or something to that effect. Collector B, loves doing kitbashes, prefers hasbro figs because they are like a blank slate which limits the creativity to the person's ability We'd be knowing their inherent biases in the issue. I hope you get my point as it is constructive input.

As for your other posts, I wish they were stickied. Especially on subjects like the past Joustra and other variant relases all through the years.

I have to respect your opinion and how you see it, although I disagree I won't labour my perspective on it. All I will say is that when I asked the people that have contributed, I did not approach them as collecting specialists in any area, I wanted to present their opinions as just that, the opinion of someone you might sit next to during lunch at BotCon, or share a drink with at Auto Assembly, or have a chat with on social media or messengers. Nobody on that list to me is considered an expert in any of the fields they commented on, they're just sharing their perspective which I felt would give the reader more than one voice to compare with their own. Had I done this purely from my own perspective, it might have sounded like I was acting as an authority and presenting my opinion as fact.

You basically hit the nail on the head when you said fellow collector. There was no further agenda or connotation in the term "contributor" than that. If you feel they have presented themselves as experts as opposed to a peer with a similar or disimilar opinion to yourself, that's up to each reader to decide and will depend on their interpretation of the tone and content. I probably cannot control that too much.

I also don't feel the article is a study with a conclusion, it doesn't go far beyond an opinion piece because that's all I ever wanted from them. I didn't expect to be able to present a final answer because I had no idea what each of them would come out and say. I was actually surprised how pro-Takara some of them ended up being. That's why I don't see them as experts, or think it's that accurate an analogy to compare them to a professional being quoted in a journal etc, their only qualification is that, like you, they like Transformers and collect Transformers toys.

These days I select contributors based on how reliable they are with providing coherent, well expressed content for me in the kind of last minute timescales I inflict on the poor buggers

Anyway, I really appreciate you taking the time to articulate your feedback constructively, and I hope I didn't come across as stubborn or defensive.

All the best
Maz

No no no. No offense meant or taken. I really enjoy the stuff you post. I also, well kind of went on the "seen that heard that" as the musings of the source people you quoted was, well, you hear feedback like theirs a lot just here in seibertron.......kind of like old news in fact TF toy threads short version comes to mind.