The Energon Pub

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:41 am**

The Leader Class is very distinctive among Transformers Classes. It was made to have bigger, more detailed and (usually) more complex Transformer Toys that would scale and interact with the the other lower classes. It only started in 2005 and was on hiatus between 2011 and 2014, making a return for Leader Jetfire, losing the electronics which were a staple so far.

I wanted to know from you guys (and girls), what are your favourite leader class figures.

Oddly enough, while I dislike the movie aesthetic my favourite leader class figures are from the movies with ROTF Optimus, HFTD Starscream and DOTM Sentinel Prime. And I actually like Generations Leader Jetfire for how stylish and good he looks in that class, it just suits him so well. Same goes for Generations Leader Magnus.

Which are your favourites? and Why?

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:33 am**

I actually have a soft spot for the AOE Leader Prime - despite it's quirks.

Some of the best toys of that general size though were sold in some other way though as Supers and such though so I can't say Beast Hunters Predaking even though he is the same height as a Leader I guess.

I don't dislike ROTF Optimus - I own several of them - but then is it really a selling point that I had to buy another couple as it's such a chore to Transform the thing into any of it's modes. But they were cheap and it was worth it to have to not re-transform him into Jet-Prime mode again.

Besides he has the appeal that he's something you can always keep adding too.

Modern leaders are pretty crap in general though. at least the AOE Optimus isn't a mess of gaps though like the very newest ones are.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:51 am**

Animated Megatron and Ultra Magnus are great figures. They are not difficult to transform, they have that cool animated aesthetic, and their gimmicks are fun to play around with. Megatron's dual spinning blades are really simple but cool. Ultra Magnus just looks badass in both modes.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:01 am**

I think the latter movie lines gave us the best Leader Class figures.

And Willy, why isn't this a top 5 list? :-P

Well, it will be for me.

5. Dark of The Moon Sentinel Prime

I just think he looks badass in robot mode. he's very faithful to the character design on screen, and he is imposing and striking with that red. Kind of a pain to transform, but that's fine because I always have him in robot mode. I gave him DoTM Deluxe Lunar Fire Optimus Prime's big red gun, since the Leader figure doesn't come with an actual gun.

4. Revenge of The Fallen Jetfire

To me his appeal is in both his combination ability, and alternate mode. I don't care for the robot mode, even if it's also faithful to the character design on screen. And he also has the same drawback as Sentinel, the panels in vehicle mode, as well as robot underside syndrome. But it's worth it, as the Blackbird is 1 of my favorite aircraft to look at, and having it be physically on my shelf is a great feeling.

3. Galaxy Force Galaxy Convoy

A great figure of a great character from a great series. I actually debated placing him #2 behind my #1 choice, but my #2 choice is just a little better to me. But Leader class Galaxy Convoy is definitely my #2 Optimus Prime. Awesome vehicle mode, pretty good robot mode with flying upgrade. Heavy and sturdy. 1 of my all time favorite Transformers figures in general.

2. Revenge of The Fallen Megatron

I think this figure is really good in terms of representing the character, even if the transformation is simple for a Leader Class figure. He is accused of having visible head syndrome, but he doesn't qualify for that since his head is visible in the design of the on screen character. And for some reason I think his 1 gimp arm just adds to his coolness. I wish the cannon on the other arm was removable, as he does sport 2 gimp arms at certain points in the movie. Personally, though not movie accurate, I like the Shadow Command version even better.

1. Revenge of The Fallen Optimus Prime

What else can be said about this figure that hasn't been said already? In my opinion, other than the Masterpiece line, this mold is the greatest piece of Transformers merchandise Hasbro has come up with. Just a marvel of engineering, I can't believe it never got the Movie Masterpiece treatment like Bee and Screamer did. Nonetheless, it got plenty of repaints and reuses, and for good reason.

Honorable mention: Galaxy Force Master Megatron

Almost the same as RoTF Leader class Megatron, his transformation is simple, yet his alternate mode is cool, even if it doesn't make sense that he's a giant race car. The jet mode I get, that should have been his primary alt mode in the series. Also as with RoTF Megatron, I liked the silver and black repaint (called Galvatron in the series) even better.

Impossible wish: Dark of The Moon Megatron

I really wanted a Leader Class figure of him, as the Voyager toy was pretty good, but the vehicle mode was too small. Imagine how awesome and imposing the Leader class version would have been, especially with an in-scale shotgun.

Impossible wish #2: Combiner Wars Rodimus Prime

Considering how well Magnus and the Seeker mold turned out, it would have been great to get a Leader class Rodimus figure. Rodimus has never had a Leader class figure, only the MP is a large Rodimus. Otherwise it's always been deluxes in every toy line so far. We got a Cloud Rodimus, but that's a hard-to-get Asian exclusive. As popular as MtMtE is, and as prominent a character Rodimus is in that series, they should have done what they did with Magnus and gave him a proper Leader class toy. But no, we had to get a bastard offspring of Armada Megatron and G2 Megatron instead.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:52 am**

Rodimus Prime wrote:I think the latter movie lines gave us the best Leader Class figures.

And Willy, why isn't this a top 5 list?

It will be, consider this preliminary research. So keep your list bookmarked to post it again when I get to it

He is accused of having visible head syndrome, but he doesn't qualify for that since his head is visible in the design of the on screen character.

I see this come up as an argumnt and I have a hard time understanding it. So if you will give me a chance to discuss it, I would be grateful. Why does he get that exemption when others dont? Energon Ironhide has his head showing on his cartoon model and so does Prime Megatron, yet they are accused as well.

If we can't count Megatron, than we can't count one of the worst ones ever, Energon Ironhide

In fact almost every single transformer that has a visible head syndrome had it at the design stage as well. Their concept designs all have visible heads and thus they all make it to the toy stage and/or animation model stage too. Here is the design for the other leader you like, Cybrtron/Galaxy Force Prime and it shows that he is conceived with his head showing in alt mode, and it is like that on the show as well, so should he not count either at having a visible head?

So if we use the definition you wrote, then almost no toy has visible head syndrome. But that doesnt work, does it? It is because of all this that I decided to draw a line and make it simple, if the robot head shows up in alt mode, it's a visible head syndrome. Would you agree or no?

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:42 pm**

william-james88 wrote:Would you agree or no?

I would not. The reason is because you do not speak for everyone. You have not made the official definition (if there is such a thing) for "VHS" (and that abbreviation is just hilarious) and that means I can have my own view on it. And to answer your earlier question, I also would not count Super-Link Roadbuster or Galaxy Convoy, because their heads were visible in the series as well. To me, visible head syndrome or "VHS" means that there is a difference between how the character appears on the screen or on the page and how s/he is in a physical toy form. IF his/her head canNOT be seen in the media, yet it CAN be seen in the toy which represents the specific character of that specific media, then the figure has VHS. I understand that others (like perhaps yourself) may take the word "visible" literally and apply it to ANY figure whose head can be seen plainly in vehicle mode. That's is fine with me, as far as I'm concerned it is your choice to do so. But then I expect at the very least an acknowledgement of my point of view, which I have stated above. UNLESS there is an official Hasbro- and/or Takara-approved definition for the term "visible head syndrome" in which case that's what we all must abide by, agree with it or not, no matter what.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:51 pm**

Dear Rodimus Convoy, I can totally get behind your viewpoint and I like it. I am sorry if I came across as having the one and only definition, of which I dont. I simply have my own. But you answered my question super well. I am glad that you count Energon Roadbuster/Ironhide as well as Galaxy Convoy, you are fair to do so (since others dont). Its just that the last time I had this discussion with someone, they brought up ROTF Megatron and stopped it there, which doesnt work. So you answered my question, ROTF is not specially exempted since there are others who have an exposed head who should not be considered to have VHS (I laughed the first time someone used it in a sentence).

So in short, I get you, and I thank you for this discussion.

I just wanted to discuss something that I find fun with someone passionate about this like you.

Ultimately, as you say, the definition is up in the air. I remember when someone spoke of the Sharkticon retool/redeco Beast Hunters Megatron voyager toy saying he was better because he didnt have VHS. But by your definition, he never had VHS to begin with, since thats how he looks like on the show

My next question for you though is something I am not sure of at all. A toy like Beast machines Blast Charge which was only ever made as a toy. His head sticks out of his ass. It is visible in alt mode, but the fiction begins and ends with his toy (his bio). Meaning, this is how the character looks. So, to you, would he suffer from vhs?

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:17 pm**

william-james88 wrote:My next question for you though is something I am not sure of at all. A toy like Beast machines Blast Charge which was only ever made as a toy. His head sticks out of his ass. It is visible in alt mode, but the fiction begins and ends with his toy (his bio). Meaning, this is how the character looks. So, to you, would he suffer from vhs?

This is a very good question. Are toy bios with no previous basis in fiction considered fiction? I know they're official, but until the information contained within the bio is applied in a previously established fiction, wouldn't it be just an accessory to the figure itself? I don't have an opinion on this, I'm just asking. IF the bio itself is considered official fiction, then by my definition, Blast Charge wouldn't have VHS simply because he is representing in 3 dimensional physical form what is printed on a piece of paper as official fiction. So I guess to me it all depends on what came 1st, the toy design or the bio? Our very own version of the-chicken-or-the-egg argument indeed.

And if I seemed harsh in my previous response, I apologize. Just as you, I seek to engage in lively debates regarding our favorite franchise, it livens the place up, and I may even learn a thing or two.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:22 pm**

Meh, a visible head is a visible head. They never not look awful.

... but as for favorite Leader Class toy, my vote goes to Movie Starscream. He's a solid figure, was only $25 at TJ Maxx, and scales real nicely with a bunch of other Movie figures (at least in alt mode):

Granted the only other Leaders I have are RotF Jetfire and 07 Movie Megatron, and they're... really not that great.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:46 pm**

Rodimus Prime wrote:This is a very good question. Are toy bios with no previous basis in fiction considered fiction? I know they're official, but until the information contained within the bio is applied in a previously established fiction, wouldn't it be just an accessory to the figure itself? I don't have an opinion on this, I'm just asking. IF the bio itself is considered official fiction, then by my definition, Blast Charge wouldn't have VHS simply because he is representing in 3 dimensional physical form what is printed on a piece of paper as official fiction. So I guess to me it all depends on what came 1st, the toy design or the bio? Our very own version of the-chicken-or-the-egg argument indeed.

And if I seemed harsh in my previous response, I apologize. Just as you, I seek to engage in lively debates regarding our favorite franchise, it livens the place up, and I may even learn a thing or two.

That's great, means we can continue right on discussing

Firstly, yes toy bios are considered fiction unless proven otherwise (as are tech specs) in other media. And even then there will be times when a writer purposefully hints at something from the bio, which is always fun. But that does mean that by using your definition, since bios are fiction, then practically no toy aside from Beast Machines silverbolt has visible head syndrome since they were all intended to have the head show up in the alt mode at the earliest stages of design. But this view might change depending on my next point.

Secondly, there is a record of what came first for almost all toys, whether it was the toy design or character design or bio. By default for the first 20 years, it was all toy design first. The exception would probably be beast machines for the characters that were on the show but even then I am not sure.

For the cybertron line, for instance, Leader Optimus Prime was designed first as a toy and then they used the toy design to put onto the screen. So as per your chicken and egg question, that Leader Optimus toy was a toy design before apearing in any fiction. In that case, would he have vhs to you?

The times when a character model was made before was for the animated line, the movies and the first 2 seasons of prime (with some of the third season). Now they are back making toys first, supposedly, before the animation model, for the RID line. But then again I dont see much of a difference since deep down in every case, someone is designing a character (either for a toy or a fiction) and choosing whether or not to have the head appear in the alt mode. Both are character designs since ultimately the toy will appear on a show and the character model will become a toy. So the design for one medium feeds into the next. So the early show design is the toy design and vice versa (like how we had an idea of how RID crazybolt would look like as a toy after seeing the storyboards first). We knew the ROTF Megatron toy would have VHS because the character design had it and we knew Cybertron Optimus would have a visible robot head on the show because his toy design showed it. Character design and toy design go hand in hand since both the toys and the accompanying media are meant to go in tandem to fuel the brand awareness. Thats why I find the distinction of when to penalize vhs found on a toy as lazy or not quite hard to do (so my personal response is to call it all lazy :lol:

).

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:33 pm**

Getting back to the original question, my two personal faves happen to be Optimus Primes.

ROTF Leader Prime, in all his incarnations, is one of the most amazing examples of toy design and engineering out there. They managed to create a figure whose robot mode is nearly identical to his onscreen movie magic incarnation, that actually transforms into a realistic (for Transformers) eighteen wheeler tractor. He's remarkably articulated, and to date I have seen no signs of plastic weakening, and the joints have yet to begin to degrade.

However, my absolute number one is Cybertron OP / Galaxy Force Convoy. This is a figure that is pure win on so many levels:
1 ) It is very clearly Optimus Prime, unlike his Energon precursor. Show him to the man on the street and they'll say "Optimus Prime!"
2 ) The shape of the windows and supermode head pay a clear homage to Star Convoy, as a nice little bonus to collectors
3 ) It is solid and sturdy, meaning kids who bought it had a toy that survived many, many hours of play.
4 ) It is satisfyingly chunky while still having a heroic propotion.
5 ) Despite said chunkiness, it's also surprisingly articulated for such a thick figure.

In short COP / GFC is possibly the best compromise we have gotten to date between Toy and Collector Item. It's simple and durable enough even for younger kids, with enough articulation and salutes to the past for collectors.

As for runner ups? Well, there's a reason I currently have CW Ultra Magnus representing UM on my shelves, and I am definitely impressed at the engineering of him. However, the only other Leader classes I own are disappointing - among them 2007 Movie Optimus Prime and Megatron.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:20 am**

Okay, 2 things:

#1: We've been wrong all this time regarding the "affliction" of these figures. At least we've been referring to it the wrong way. "Syndrome" is the wrong word.

dictionary wrote:syn·drome
ˈsinˌdrōm/Submit
noun
a group of symptoms that consistently occur together or a condition characterized by a set of associated symptoms

As you can see, the definition itself disqualifies the term from being used, as the visibility of one single body part cannot be considered a "group of symptoms." Unless you think it's acceptable to apply the word due to the repetition of the occurrence with different figures.

#2: I need to further clarify my view on the subject. The now-faulty (see above) term of "syndrome" referred to the specific figure having a defect. That being a visible head in alt mode. However, it is only a defect if the head wasn't intended to be seen in the character design, and the toy (or its designers, rather) simply couldn't pull it off. Thus the figure is showing a defect in terms of how it's supposed to look/function as opposed to how it actually is. That's why I said that in my opinion, if the character design includes a visible head in alt mode, that means it's okay for the toy to show it as well, and therefore there is no defect, thus no illness or "syndrome." Hopefully that's a bit clearer.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:24 am**

Rodimus Prime wrote:#2: I need to further clarify my view on the subject. The now-faulty (see above) term of "syndrome" referred to the specific figure having a defect. That being a visible head in alt mode. However, it is only a defect if the head wasn't intended to be seen in the character design, and the toy (or its designers, rather) simply couldn't pull it off. Thus the figure is showing a defect in terms of how it's supposed to look/function as opposed to how it actually is. That's why I said that in my opinion, if the character design includes a visible head in alt mode, that means it's okay for the toy to show it as well, and therefore there is no defect, thus no illness or "syndrome." Hopefully that's a bit clearer.

But then is there a Transformer toy that you are not ok with? Because most of these visible heads are planned from the design stage. But they are planned with the deisigners knowing of their limited framework. What I mean is, I am certain that if the designers could have found a better way to hide Cybertron Optimus' head, they would have.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:29 am**

Depends on what we class as "Leader Class", really - its changed a few times over the years.

If this guy counts - he's mine.

RID Optimus Prime has everything - really cool truck mode. Interesting transformation. Accessories coming out the ass that can be configured into all sorts of cool stuff and even combine into a super-mode. AND he's hugely posable.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:18 am**

william-james88 wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:#2: I need to further clarify my view on the subject. The now-faulty (see above) term of "syndrome" referred to the specific figure having a defect. That being a visible head in alt mode. However, it is only a defect if the head wasn't intended to be seen in the character design, and the toy (or its designers, rather) simply couldn't pull it off. Thus the figure is showing a defect in terms of how it's supposed to look/function as opposed to how it actually is. That's why I said that in my opinion, if the character design includes a visible head in alt mode, that means it's okay for the toy to show it as well, and therefore there is no defect, thus no illness or "syndrome." Hopefully that's a bit clearer.

But then is there a Transformer toy that you are not ok with?

In terms of a visible head, not yet. Perhaps G1 Jetfire, but the toy is nothing like the character model, and the design he was based on allows for the head to be visible in jet mode. So that's a gray area.

Because most of these visible heads are planned from the design stage. But they are planned with the designers knowing of their limited framework. What I mean is, I am certain that if the designers could have found a better way to hide Cybertron Optimus' head, they would have.

But then why wasn't it hidden in the series, if, as you say, the toy was made 1st then the design copied and put on screen? Couldn't they have covered it up digitally?

And Amelie, as far as Fire Convoy is concerned, IMO it all depends on which mode you consider a Leader class. The cab only or the combined mode? Which form do you consider the true form of the character? Is he Optimus with a bunch of armor and cool weapons (a la DW Magnus), or is it Optimus with a smaller bot inside(a la IDW Magnus)?

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:50 am**

Rodimus Prime wrote:And Amelie, as far as Fire Convoy is concerned, IMO it all depends on which mode you consider a Leader class. The cab only or the combined mode? Which form do you consider the true form of the character? Is he Optimus with a bunch of armor and cool weapons (a la DW Magnus), or is it Optimus with a smaller bot inside(a la IDW Magnus)?

Oh man - thats a tricksy question.

I'm gonna argue as a package. Mini guy, accessories and super-mode. To take one thing away is only going to diminish the toy.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:37 pm**

I'd say the character is the mini guy, but in large mode his parts ARE part of him, and thus is still the character. It might be an augmented mode, but it's still him - he could feel things through them as if they were his actual body. I'd say it's more like an organic character that can absorb extra mass to grow, than an organic character wearing powered armor.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:52 pm**

To me a leader toy is simply a toy under that class. I would count Powerizers either even though they were leader sized (boy were those terrible). The one non leader toy I feel should be called Leader though is TAV 21 and 33, that big takara exclusive eletronic optimus with working trailer.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:05 pm**

Will, you could have answered whether or not the RiD OP/Magnus are Leader Class - look at the top right of your box

That set retconned those guys as Leader Class, and it really is appropriate in my opinion.

I'd say "Leader Class" would extend to the following additional molds and their repaints (beyond those two) not specifically labeled as such:

Optimal Optimus
Air Attack Optimus Primal
Armada "Superbase" Optimus Prime
Armada Megatron (Close to the "Ultra" cut-off, yes, but probably just big enough esp. considering modern Leader Class)
Prime Weaponizers Optimus Prime
Prime Weaponizers Bumblebee
Transformers Adventures TAV-21/33

As far as the best? For me, it's Cybertron Galvatron, Cybertron Optimus Prime, AoE Leader Grimlock (sorely underappreciated, but I'm also a Grimlock fanboy), Armada Superbase Prime, and HftD Starscream. Cybertron Galvatron would be the top of that list, with Cybertron OP right behind, and the rest not in any particular order.

Posted: **Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:13 pm**

Amelie wrote:Depends on what we class as "Leader Class", really - its changed a few times over the years.

If this guy counts - he's mine.

RID Optimus Prime has everything - really cool truck mode. Interesting transformation. Accessories coming out the ass that can be configured into all sorts of cool stuff and even combine into a super-mode. AND he's hugely posable.

Plus he can combine with leader Ultra Magnus to form Omega Prime, for extra awesomeness.

But you can see his super mode head in firetruck mode.... (UH OH!)

They do try to at least disguise it a little, like it's some sort of weird pump or something, and it doesn't bug me like a lot of visible head syndrome sufferers do, but it is there.

Posted: **Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:04 am**

I don't actually own that many Leader class figures- if any at all actually. However, I will say that Leader Optimus Prime and Megatron from Cybertron/Galaxy Force are definitely on my future want list (alas I need to downsize my collection at the moment so I could be waiting a fair bit before I get them). Optimus Prime combines the best aspects of the iconic OP design and modern Japanese mecha designs (there's a lot of 2000s era Gundam in him) whilst Megatron is a monumental monolith of menacing metal. He looks even better as Galvatron with that sexy silver paint. Sure his jet mode is questionable, but his car mode is plain awesome and his robot mode is just sublime. As far as simple aesthetic design goes he's pretty much perfect.

Posted: **Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:01 am**

Ah Guess those ones you may want to call leader have a size class already it's called 'Super' And they are usually bigger toys often an Optimus Prime with a Trailer.

Not that cut and dried though when you discount the trailers as then it gets complicated as Most Optimus minus the trailer are Ultra Size (or Maxcon "Big Voyager" size).

I would kind of preferred they not use size classes that go out of there way to cause un-needed brand confusion - but heck it's Hasbro so they do go out of their way to cause brand confusion - likely out of ignorance of their own history or wilful trolling of the fandom.

I don't consider the whole Legend/Legion/Basics thing at all helpful and I dread to think what it must do to the new brand consumers - when a given size has no consistency from year to year - just look at the younger end of the market and all the various things they have slapped the name Elite or Titan onto that often have nothing to do with each other and are not even a consistent size and that is even before you get to the issue of every "Titan" (in the Metroplex sense) of a toy so far being a different size.

But no I never noticed they stuck Leader Class on the RID toys on later reissues - I don't think I ever saw that twin pack and as I already had the originals I wouldn't have taken much interest of a repack anyway.

Anyway as a general rule for Character bigger than the old Ultra Scale I would suggest that they think a bit more carefully about what they are like size wise and quality wise as they are falling down a bit farming that substandard Jetfire mould a bit much - I understand why I might even approve if they were a bit cheaper - I just don't see Seeker Repaints or Armada Megatron as a £50.00 toy is all. and Home Bargains in the UK still can't get rid of their Jetfires even at £19.99 terribly quickly. and that is with something that may as well be a store exclusive to them too.

The Energon Pub

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