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Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:07 pmby Evil Eye
(I was going to post this in the Victorion thread, but I decided instead to give this its own topic when I realized that A: it could drive the thread off-topic, and B: it merited its own thread.)
So. Female Transformers, and the the plastic representations thereof. There haven't been as many as we would have liked, and not all the ones we have had have been all that great. There is of course a great deal of debate as to how to do them. You have the traditionalists, who believe that fembots should follow the Arcee pattern of character design (so basically an attractive metal woman with a few bits of car kibble) and then at the other end of the spectrum you have the people who think that any figure can be a female Transformer, regardless of whether or not it actually looks even remotely feminine. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle of the road myself, but I can understand both sides to some degree.
One particularly egregious example of female Transformers being done perhaps not as well as some people hoped is the Torchbearers. Now a lot of people like them, but I have to say I don't think they really look all that feminine. However, the problem with them isn't so much that they aren't just "sexy robot women with a car backpack". I think more the problem is that, simply put, they don't look female at the base level mainly due to their basic proportions.
If you compare female and male proportions, you'll notice that women have wider hips and slightly narrower shoulders than men- their shoulders and hips are almost the same width. Obviously there will be some variation (as obviously everybody has different body types) but generally speaking, women's hip and shoulder widths tend to be about the same, whereas men's shoulders are generally wider than their hips.
The big problem with the Torchbearers is that, being straight-up retools of existing male characters- more specifically male characters with very masculine body shapes- their shoulders are MUCH wider than their hips. And I'm not just talking about shoulder pads or kibble either- the actual shoulder joints are quite widely spaced apart. The helicopter sisters are fairly effective, actually, as their shoulders aren't too wide. Likewise, Pyra Magna works OK due to the majority of her shoulder width being kibble, making it look like she's just heavily armoured as opposed to having, well, big manly shoulders. The two cars, however, suffer quite a bit from "obvious male retool syndrome", especially Dustup, as their shoulders are comically wide compared to their hips. The result is that they just don't look natural next to other fembots. Now admittedly there isn't much that could be done about this given the basic mold, but it's still worth noting.
Now some people have said that it's impossible to get a feminine-looking Transformer out of certain bulky alt modes (bulldozers, tanks etc) but I don't think that's quite true. Fembots can still look bulky and armoured and remain recognizably female, provided the basic proportions are down. Want to make a huge tank fembot with bulky armour? That's perfectly doable! Want to make a muscular, strong looking fembot? Easily achievable! Really, there's two golden rules that need to be followed when making a female figure:
1: The shoulders and hips should be similar widths.
2: If the shoulders are going to be much wider than the hips, make sure it's because of kibble/shoulder pads/armour, and that the actual shoulder joints are still fairly in line with the hips.
TLDR: Proportions are far more important than having high-heels or being pink.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. What do you guys think?
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:19 pmby Autobot N
Pretty much my point of view.
Also, thanks for not posting this in the Victorion thread. It annoys me to no end going to a thread about her and all I see is people arguing about this.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:04 pmby RAR
The fembot pals of Elita-1 had some heft to some of them, they were not all waif like.
The I think you can stretch the point a bit they don't all need High heels, Breast plates and broader hips.
Perhaps it's enough to just have some female features like the face, smaller hands slightly smaller feet for example.
I like the shape of Female Transformers as since they are more often than not - slim they make for a nice change from the bulky look.
I would actually rather like to see a female construction character sometime.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:46 pmby Noideaforaname
For me, the differences between male and female become too subtle past a certain point. Stylized/Non-human characters with a generic enough build can become effectively androgynous. I mean, if you told me that these characters:
... were female, I'd believe it. If you told me they're male, I'd just as readily believe it. Transformers
(for the most part, including the Victorion molds) are the same way. There simply isn't anything telling me -blatantly- what gender these people are.
I totally get wanting female proportions regardless of the exact builds, but me personally I can't tell the difference anyways.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:31 amby Insurgent
Strika would like a word about these proprtions.
I agree about the females should be having some kind of at least vague shape. Even Strika who has broad shoulders and a thinner waist, still cuts a female-esque, if powerhouse mad, shape. I have trouble seeing the Victorian figures as female, but someone like Airrazor or Strika is fine.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:09 pmby Optimum Supreme
Noideaforaname wrote:For me, the differences between male and female become too subtle past a certain point. Stylized/Non-human characters with a generic enough build can become effectively androgynous. I mean, if you told me that these characters:
... were female, I'd believe it. If you told me they're male, I'd just as readily believe it. Transformers
(for the most part, including the Victorion molds) are the same way. There simply isn't anything telling me -blatantly- what gender these people are.
I totally get wanting female proportions regardless of the exact builds, but me personally I can't tell the difference anyways.
Suited up Samus is a special case since it was a big secret that she was a girl in the original game, and you didn't find out unless you got a special ending when you beat the game in a short enough time.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:59 amby fenrir72
The trouble with transforming toys, the parts tend to break the traditional female archetype structure. The Ex-Gokin series was supposed to release their animated forms especially Elita and Arcee but they both haven't been released yet.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:15 amby Amelie
Not really bothered, honestly. Sure, its annoying when say Arcee doesn't look right, but thats me being a G1-fanatic.
If the male Transformers are allowed to come in all sorts of mental shapes (and sizes), then the females should be too.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:12 pmby SKYWARPED_128
Delta Magnus wrote:TLDR: Proportions are far more important than having high-heels or being pink.
That's pretty much been my stand on the matter from the start.
There also another often-overlooked factor. It's important to realize that the most-used method the human brain uses to identify gender is the face. And it's not just about large eyes and small lips. Much like the body, proportions and silhouette also factor into what makes a face masculine or feminine.
Even without easily identifiable facial features, just the silhouette and shape of the face and head allows the human brain to decide whether its masculine or feminine, or at least androgynous. It's just like what they taught in art school; in human faces, angular lines evoke masculinity and soft flowing lines evoke femininity.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:01 pmby Amelie
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:It's just like what they taught in art school; in human faces, angular lines evoke masculinity and soft flowing lines evoke femininity.
Masterpiece Road Rage does that so well. It only takes a very small change in the figure and it immediately appears 'feminine' without it stopping looking like a Transformer. A big 'issue' with G1 Arcee is that she doesn't really follow any of the usual Transformers body forms.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:01 pmby Amelie
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:It's just like what they taught in art school; in human faces, angular lines evoke masculinity and soft flowing lines evoke femininity.
Masterpiece Road Rage does that so well. It only takes a very small change in the figure and it immediately appears 'feminine' without it stopping looking like a Transformer. A big 'issue' with G1 Arcee is that she doesn't really follow any of the usual Transformers body forms.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:44 amby SKYWARPED_128
Amelie wrote:Masterpiece Road Rage does that so well. It only takes a very small change in the figure and it immediately appears 'feminine' without it stopping looking like a Transformer.
I agree. Road Rage is a fembot retool of a male bot done right. Of course, either narrowing the shoulders a little or widening the hips to shoulder width would help tremendously as well.
Amelie wrote:A big 'issue' with G1 Arcee is that she doesn't really follow any of the usual Transformers body forms.
Are you talking about Legends/Generations Arcee? In which case, I think it's really the fault of the source material. For one, there has never been an actual G1 toy of the character from the 80's, so the designer really had nothing to go on, engineering-wise. So in typical TakaraTomy fashion, he tried to make it as anime/cartoon accurate as he could, within the boundaries of a deluxe toy's budget and parts quota. And as we all know, G1 Arcee in the cartoons is pretty much a metal girl with two halves of a scifi car's hood strapped to either side of her shoulder blades.
All things considered, it turned out quite okay.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:57 amby fenrir72
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Amelie wrote:Masterpiece Road Rage does that so well. It only takes a very small change in the figure and it immediately appears 'feminine' without it stopping looking like a Transformer.
I agree. Road Rage is a fembot retool of a male bot done right.
Amelie wrote:A big 'issue' with G1 Arcee is that she doesn't really follow any of the usual Transformers body forms.
Are you talking about Legends/Generations Arcee? In which case, I think it's really the fault of the source material. For one, there has never been an actual G1 toy of the character from the 80's, so the designer really had nothing to go on, engineering-wise. So in typical TakaraTomy fashion, he tried to make it as anime/cartoon accurate as he could, within the boundaries of a deluxe toy's budget and parts quota. And as we all know, G1 Arcee in the cartoons is pretty much a metal girl with two halves of a scifi car's hood strapped to either side of her shoulder blades.
All things considered, it turned out quite okay.
SW128, just want to let you know, the guy who designed Legends Arcee, well, the reason he got into Takara many eons ago was because of his scratch build model of Arcee.He won a contest in one of those conventions in Japan and he was hired because of "her". Same guy who would eventually design MP-10.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:35 amby SKYWARPED_128
fenrir72 wrote:SW128, just want to let you know, the guy who designed Legends Arcee, well, the reason he got into Takara many eons ago was because of his scratch build model of Arcee.He won a contest in one of those conventions in Japan and he was hired because of "her". Same guy who would eventually design MP-10.
Interesting. Honestly, with a bit more budget and parts quota, that design could really shine. Still, in and of itself, Generations Arcee is no slouch.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:21 pmby MrBlack
They're alien robots. I don't see why they have to conform to human ideas of what a female should look like.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:20 pmby Cobotron
I agree that for Victorian the molds chosen, other than the helicopters, are pretty hard to perceive as female. Firefly, and Drag Strip would have been better choices than either of the sports cars. In the end though, the designers didn't choose, the fans did.
I don't remember, was gender a vote-able choice in the fan polls?
RID Strongarm is a great example of maintaining femininity while being big, bulky and armored. The cartoon model is a little more svelte, but the toy has dumps like a truck. Even the tiny little Legion toy pulls it off very well.
And, Road Rage is a great example of the face being the main determining factor. I think even if they hadn't re-sculpted the thighs and biceps, she still would have read instantly as female.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:25 pmby SKYWARPED_128
MrBlack wrote:They're alien robots. I don't see why they have to conform to human ideas of what a female should look like.
Fundamentally, that's a very good point, and I totally agree.
Except where G1 or any G1-esque medium is concerned.
Now, a typical G1 aesthetic is exceedingly humanoid: humanoid face, anthropomorphic physique, human-like behavior and speech patterns--barring a few rare exceptions. Naturally, gender stereotypes will be humanoid as well. As I said a few posts above, the source material just wasn't designed for exploring alien gender in non-procreating mechanical beings.
That's the baggage being carried by shows or comics that stay close to G1.
With the Bayverse movies, especially ROTF, you see more exploration of physical diversity, even if it isn't gender-specific. Frankly, Bay and the writers couldn't be bothered to explain alien robot gender, but if they did, the movies would be the perfect platform. Because it's by far the furthest removed from G1 influence, barring some essential homages and "must-haves".
TL;DR, you make a good point, but only if Hasbro were to overhaul the TF mythology and did away with humanoid aesthetics that are the foundations of G1 aesthetics. The thing is, that's unlikely to ever happen, given how iconic G1 aesthetics is.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:31 pmby fenrir72
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:MrBlack wrote:They're alien robots. I don't see why they have to conform to human ideas of what a female should look like.
Fundamentally, that's a very good point, and I totally agree.
Except where G1 or any G1-esque medium is concerned.
Now, a typical G1 aesthetic is exceedingly humanoid: humanoid face, anthropomorphic physique, human-like behavior and speech patterns--barring a few rare exceptions. Naturally, gender stereotypes will be humanoid as well. As I said a few posts above, the source material just wasn't designed for exploring alien gender in non-procreating mechanical beings.
That's the baggage being carried by shows or comics that stay close to G1.
With the Bayverse movies, especially ROTF, you see more exploration of physical diversity, even if it isn't gender-specific. Frankly, Bay and the writers couldn't be bothered to explain alien robot gender, but if they did, the movies would be the perfect platform. Because it's by far the furthest removed from G1 influence, barring some essential homages and "must-haves".
TL;DR, you make a good point, but only if Hasbro were to overhaul the TF mythology and did away with humanoid aesthetics that are the foundations of G1 aesthetics. The thing is, that's unlikely to ever happen, given how iconic G1 aesthetics is.
The atrocity that is Arcee in Bayverse? Supposedly that's female? Looks more like an insect.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:38 pmby SKYWARPED_128
fenrir72 wrote:SKYWARPED_128 wrote:MrBlack wrote:They're alien robots. I don't see why they have to conform to human ideas of what a female should look like.
Fundamentally, that's a very good point, and I totally agree.
Except where G1 or any G1-esque medium is concerned.
Now, a typical G1 aesthetic is exceedingly humanoid: humanoid face, anthropomorphic physique, human-like behavior and speech patterns--barring a few rare exceptions. Naturally, gender stereotypes will be humanoid as well. As I said a few posts above, the source material just wasn't designed for exploring alien gender in non-procreating mechanical beings.
That's the baggage being carried by shows or comics that stay close to G1.
With the Bayverse movies, especially ROTF, you see more exploration of physical diversity, even if it isn't gender-specific. Frankly, Bay and the writers couldn't be bothered to explain alien robot gender, but if they did, the movies would be the perfect platform. Because it's by far the furthest removed from G1 influence, barring some essential homages and "must-haves".
TL;DR, you make a good point, but only if Hasbro were to overhaul the TF mythology and did away with humanoid aesthetics that are the foundations of G1 aesthetics. The thing is, that's unlikely to ever happen, given how iconic G1 aesthetics is.
The atrocity that is Arcee in Bayverse? Supposedly that's female? Looks more like an insect.
LOL, I can't argue on that!
Seriously though, I wasn't talking about movie Arcee specifically as a good example, but that the physical diversity in the Bay movies is a good platform for exploring alien robot gender.
MRBlack was talking about why it's not necessary for TF gender to conform to human expectations. My answer to that was that for G1, at least, everything else on a TF is so humanoid that trying to overthink it and introduce any kind of "how would being alien robots influence their gender" concept would simply implode, because everything else about the mythology, core concept and most importantly the aesthetics of G1 TF is just so human-esque, that it would need a complete overhaul before that would work.
Confused yet?
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:03 pmby william-james88
Cobotron wrote:I agree that for Victorian the molds chosen, other than the helicopters, are pretty hard to perceive as female. Firefly, and Drag Strip would have been better choices than either of the sports cars. In the end though, the designers didn't choose, the fans did.
I don't remember, was gender a vote-able choice in the fan polls?
RID Strongarm is a great example of maintaining femininity while being big, bulky and armored. The cartoon model is a little more svelte, but the toy has dumps like a truck. Even the tiny little Legion toy pulls it off very well.
And, Road Rage is a great example of the face being the main determining factor. I think even if they hadn't re-sculpted the thighs and biceps, she still would have read instantly as female.
Her crotch being reworked helped too. And yes, gender was part of the polls but a hasbro interview really hints that this was a preconcieved choice and that she would be female regardless.
I totally agree that other molds would have been better choices.
And while I like the argument that they are alien robots and thus should not conform to our ideas of what is male and female stereotypes, that can also be said that they should thus not need eyebrows, or facial hair, or noses. And yet, these robots have these very human traits. By denying the gender stereotypes to some of the robots, people are creating a totality, meaning it is a useless argument that leads us nowhere. Why would Transformers even look female? I dont know, why would they even exist? Its all silly robot stuff, and its established that these characters have human traits so lets run with it.
Knowing that, I do wonder which transformers toys out there really are the best at conveying a gender difference and are the best examples at female Transformers. I narrowed it down to these, are there others I am missing?
Energon Arcee
Animated Arcee
Animated/Legends Blackarachnia
Legends Windblade/Slipstream
Generations Arcee/Nightbird Shadow
PRID Arcee/Gen Chromia
BM Blackarachnia
MP Roadrage
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:46 pmby Evil Eye
For what it's worth, BW TM2 Blackarachnia looks the part- and looks intimidating whilst she's at it. I actually wish the model in the show for her TM2 body had been more accurate to the toy.
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:20 amby Ebonsaber
william-james88 wrote:Knowing that, I do wonder which transformers toys out there really are the best at conveying a gender difference and are the best examples at female Transformers. I narrowed it down to these, are there others I am missing?
Energon Arcee
Animated Arcee
Animated/Legends Blackarachnia
Legends Windblade/Slipstream
Generations Arcee/Nightbird Shadow
PRID Arcee/Gen Chromia
BM Blackarachnia
MP Roadrage
Cybertron Thunderblast/GF Chromia, but technically she's cheating(Shellformer)...
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:27 amby william-james88
Ebonsaber wrote:Cybertron Thunderblast/GF Chromia, but technically she's cheating(Shellformer)...
Yeah, thats why I didnt include her. Thats some pretty hardcore cheating
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:28 pmby Evil Eye
william-james88 wrote:Ebonsaber wrote:Cybertron Thunderblast/GF Chromia, but technically she's cheating(Shellformer)...
Yeah, thats why I didnt include her. Thats some pretty hardcore cheating
Honestly I'd like to see Thunderblast get a Generations toy that actually takes advantage of the shellformery nature- so as with before, most of the boat hull forms "wings" (perhaps with a bit more foldy bits to make them look more impressive) whilst the actual robot inside, unhindered by having to contain any dedicated transformation engineering, could be super-articulated (so chest and waist balljoints, double-balljointed neck, balljointed ankles and wrists etc). Of course that would never happen with Hasbro's current trend of simplification and cost-cutting, so...let's hope MMC or MakeToys or someone is reading this thread, maybe?
Re: Female Transformers Toys: Doing Them Right
Posted:
Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:51 pmby Amelie
Delta Magnus wrote:william-james88 wrote:Ebonsaber wrote:Cybertron Thunderblast/GF Chromia, but technically she's cheating(Shellformer)...
Yeah, thats why I didnt include her. Thats some pretty hardcore cheating
Honestly I'd like to see Thunderblast get a Generations toy that actually takes advantage of the shellformery nature- so as with before, most of the boat hull forms "wings" (perhaps with a bit more foldy bits to make them look more impressive) whilst the actual robot inside, unhindered by having to contain any dedicated transformation engineering, could be super-articulated (so chest and waist balljoints, double-balljointed neck, balljointed ankles and wrists etc). Of course that would never happen with Hasbro's current trend of simplification and cost-cutting, so...let's hope MMC or MakeToys or someone is reading this thread, maybe?
So basically you want Scourge to be remolded into Thunderblast?