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Randomhero wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Randomhero wrote:A retool means shared parts with new molding.

No, that is NOT the definition of a retool, it never was.

Here is the ONLY definition for a retool that is legitimate:

A Retool is a toy that has been created by modifying an existing mold to give it new features. This enables companies to create new toys without producing an entirely new mold from scratch.

Any definition beyond that is entirely particular to you as a fan and in no way legitimate. That is the definition for Hasbro and the toy industry. Notice 0 mention of shared parts. And even then, all combiner components have a shared part, the combiner ports, so those fan definitions are still utterly useless.
A mold can be modified entirely and it would still be a retool. And TF molds have a bunch of pieces, so it could be they use the mold for some pieces, modify them and then add other new pieces. There is still a retooled element in there.

The main idea is that a toy must come from an existing mold and since we all have 0 clue as to what went on in the background at hasrbo (like, did they take the silverbolt mold and tweak it totally, or did they never look at silverbolt and just make this guy from scratch) then NONE of us have the answer and NONE of us are right or can affirm to be right over an other. That is why this discussion is so **** tedious every **** time. There is no answer, its what you think.

So, short story, if you think its a retool, then its a retool. If you dont, then it isnt, TO YOU.

That's ridiculous. Calling something a retool when it's not is ignorance and it just spreads more ignorance. There's plenty of people who won't buy retools because 1. they thinks it's lazy or 2. They already one mold of the figure and don't want to buy it again. Going around saying hun-grrr is a retool spreads that idea when in fact he's not because he doesn't share anything expect shared engineering for gestalt.

WJ88 went to the effort to actually put a definition to the word - you have not yet done so, so it's somewhat difficult to assess your response.

Shared engineering is half of it; much of it, in my mind at least, has to do with the development process, as Will laid out. If Silverbolt was a starting point for Hun-Grr, and they altered the molding of pieces to give him that healthy Hun-Grr look, that counts as a substantial retool, similar to how Sandstorm is substantially different from Springer, or Sharkticon Megatron is substantially different from the PRID version. If Silverbolt was not the starting point, then perhaps Hun-Grr is not a retool.

However, given the way these things are planned, I think it's reasonable to assume, and even likely as a matter of fact, that Silverbolt was a starting point for Hun-Grr. That, in combination with all of the identical internal mechanics, makes Hun-Grr a retool. If you want a more intensive term, reshell.

Speaking of sharing things...Jazz(& probably others too) has the same combiner peg carried over from the CW figs, so at least the combiner mechanics share that same system

So...as soon as I end work on Friday afternoon all these new pics surface heh...Some nice ones too. I'm glad the whole G2 Defensor/Inferno issue got cleared up. I was going to freak out if they actually did release G2 Defensor after I already got rid of my other G2 combiners.

But I think the initial confusion was caused, because, at least for me, I'd hoped the new Autobot combiner would have a new head, not just a repaint of Defensors. I mean most of the combiners got unique heads, and even fixed Computron when just slapped Superions head on theirs.

It's kind of like Elia-1 & Starscream -whenever their combiner's are revealed I don't expect them to have the same head sculpt (of course I could be wrong...) . But great pics overall during the weekend. I cant wait to see more.

megatronus wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Randomhero wrote:A retool means shared parts with new molding.

No, that is NOT the definition of a retool, it never was.

Here is the ONLY definition for a retool that is legitimate:

A Retool is a toy that has been created by modifying an existing mold to give it new features. This enables companies to create new toys without producing an entirely new mold from scratch.

Any definition beyond that is entirely particular to you as a fan and in no way legitimate. That is the definition for Hasbro and the toy industry. Notice 0 mention of shared parts. And even then, all combiner components have a shared part, the combiner ports, so those fan definitions are still utterly useless.
A mold can be modified entirely and it would still be a retool. And TF molds have a bunch of pieces, so it could be they use the mold for some pieces, modify them and then add other new pieces. There is still a retooled element in there.

The main idea is that a toy must come from an existing mold and since we all have 0 clue as to what went on in the background at hasrbo (like, did they take the silverbolt mold and tweak it totally, or did they never look at silverbolt and just make this guy from scratch) then NONE of us have the answer and NONE of us are right or can affirm to be right over an other. That is why this discussion is so **** tedious every **** time. There is no answer, its what you think.

So, short story, if you think its a retool, then its a retool. If you dont, then it isnt, TO YOU.

That's ridiculous. Calling something a retool when it's not is ignorance and it just spreads more ignorance. There's plenty of people who won't buy retools because 1. they thinks it's lazy or 2. They already one mold of the figure and don't want to buy it again. Going around saying hun-grrr is a retool spreads that idea when in fact he's not because he doesn't share anything expect shared engineering for gestalt.

WJ88 went to the effort to actually put a definition to the word - you have not yet done so, so it's somewhat difficult to assess your response.

Shared engineering is half of it; much of it, in my mind at least, has to do with the development process, as Will laid out. If Silverbolt was a starting point for Hun-Grr, and they altered the molding of pieces to give him that healthy Hun-Grr look, that counts as a substantial retool, similar to how Sandstorm is substantially different from Springer, or Sharkticon Megatron is substantially different from the PRID version. If Silverbolt was not the starting point, then perhaps Hun-Grr is not a retool.

However, given the way these things are planned, I think it's reasonable to assume, and even likely as a matter of fact, that Silverbolt was a starting point for Hun-Grr. That, in combination with all of the identical internal mechanics, makes Hun-Grr a retool. If you want a more intensive term, reshell.

Then I guess we better count every titan master a retool and also TR Chromdome is a retool of dead end and while we're at it all the terrorcons are retools from combiner Wars figures because their legs fold up similar with arms to the side and some part goes to the back. Classics Jazz is a retool from 84 one because they transform almost the same. We better say the combiner Wars hotshot mold is a retool of motor master because the legs become the thighs and you fold up the arms for the torso mode. Yup we gotta count it all now

Sabrblade wrote:I'm not sure what it is, but something about Slug's dino mode looks a little off.

Head and tail are stumpy, back legs are incredibly thin. The saving in plastic puts Slags proportions off.

I just realized that the new hand piece gimmick essentially makes every deluxe a breast master. Combiners. Breastmasters. Liokaiser.

steals_your_goats wrote:I just realized that the new hand piece gimmick essentially makes every deluxe a breast master. Combiners. Breastmasters. Liokaiser.

I was thinking more like a Powermaster, albeit with spark symbols instead of engines.

Though, "Breastmaster" isn't what the Breastforce members were called.

Sabrblade wrote:

steals_your_goats wrote:I just realized that the new hand piece gimmick essentially makes every deluxe a breast master. Combiners. Breastmasters. Liokaiser.

I was thinking more like a Powermaster, albeit with spark symbols instead of engines.

Though, "Breastmaster" isn't what the Breastforce members were called.

I knew breastmaster didn't sound right. Still the potp gimmick could very easily be switched for the breastforce one.

yeah, some part of me hopes Hasbro is throwing us a bone by finding a way to SOMEHOW release a g2 Defensor. With an orange cycle we are ever closer to just that. First Aid is close enough with a little touch ups, but I TRULY hope they can squeeze out a black police car and a blue/purple copter. Those would look amazing.

Randomhero wrote:Then I guess we better count every titan master a retool and also TR Chromdome is a retool of dead end and while we're at it all the terrorcons are retools from combiner Wars figures because their legs fold up similar with arms to the side and some part goes to the back. Classics Jazz is a retool from 84 one because they transform almost the same. We better say the combiner Wars hotshot mold is a retool of motor master because the legs become the thighs and you fold up the arms for the torso mode. Yup we gotta count it all now

You seem to be getting a bit hysterical here.

I would say that the Titan Master bodies are, by definitions, retooled. The larger robot faces complicate that calculus, but in theory, yes.

I do think TR Chromdome is largely a retool of Dead End, with some additional parts, minus a combiner peg. Actually, because the functionality is so radically different, an argument can be made that Dead End 'inspired' the design of Chromedome rather than constituted a starting point. Hard to say without official word from Hasbro, but if Chromedome, with his radically different gimmick and hence somewhat different engineering, could be seen as a retool, than for sure Hun-Grr, who shares an identical gimmick and functionality to Silverbolt, would be defined as a retool.

RTS Jazz and CW Hot Shot are clearly not retools. By no definition presented here would that be the case. Way to twist my words and reach for the stars!

o.supreme wrote:But I think the initial confusion was caused, because, at least for me, I'd hoped the new Autobot combiner would have a new head, not just a repaint of Defensors. I mean most of the combiners got unique heads, and even fixed Computron when just slapped Superions head on theirs.

There was confusion only for those who didn't saw the leaks.

While talking of this : We can now post them again ? as everything which was on the leask is now revealed ?

^ I was confused for a minute because of the headline, until I started reading posts. I knew about the Inferno Voyager coming because of the leak, but I did not expect it to have a straight up repaint of Defensors head in the combined mode. I knew of course the artwork did not match G2 Defensors colors, but I'll admit the title of the article threw me, then when I started reading posts here, and looking at other sites, that's when it all made sense. Like I said it threw me just for a short time. I know sometimes we get artwork leaks way before a release, sometimes up to a year in advance, but I just hope somehow that's not final and we get a different head. If not its fine, I was just hoping for something different I guess.

Does it really matter whether something can be defined as a retool or not?

I really don't wanna come across as some sort of outsider, high-horse, edgy devil's advocate too-superior-to-take-a-side person here, but I've seen a dozen of these conversations by this point and I'm bemused at what they're supposed to achieve. Whether Hun-Gurr is a retool of Silverbolt or not and how much he strays the boundaries and definitions of a retool doesn't matter to me. The reason something being a retool matters is because of how it will feel in-hand. Combiner Wars limbs being constant retools were exhausting because it felt like you were getting the same toy five times in a row. But if Hun-Gurr is a retool but feels nothing like Silverbolt - at least no more than, say, Dead End from Fireflight - then... again, I don't think it matters that he's a retool. If anything, the fact that definitions are being strayed so much and that there's so much doubt and debate shows to me this is a good thing; that Hasbro's designers are really getting good at this thing and not just resorting to laziness when it comes to mold or engineering re-use.

I got a little off-track as I tend to do, but the general point is that I don't really think a toy being a retool or not really matters as long as it doesn't affect the quality of the toy or makes you feel like you've gotten the toy before. And, naturally, we can't know that for sure until we actually get these toys in-hand.

Yesterday I was acting like a tool. Today I was at it again. Guess that makes me a re-tool...

Kurona wrote:Does it really matter whether something can be defined as a retool or not?

Of course not - to the extent that toys matter at all.

But I'm a poo-stirrer. Also, I'm irrationally into the podcast wager ScottyP made about Hun-Grr NOT being a retool

RodimusConvoy13 wrote:

DMSL wrote:Bummer, Inferno is just a repaint. They didn't even retool part of the truck to make it look more like the classic character. Elite-1...yikes those legs. At least all the other stuff looks good.

Look at the pic, they retooled the head to look more like Inferno.

Yes i saw that, but like i said they didn't retool the truck. They could have at least made the cab more Inferno like.

megatronus wrote:

Kurona wrote:Does it really matter whether something can be defined as a retool or not?

Of course not - to the extent that toys matter at all.

But I'm a poo-stirrer. Also, I'm irrationally into the podcast wager ScottyP made about Hun-Grr NOT being a retool

Well, now, see, THAT'S a good reason. Have fun fighting over money

Kurona wrote:Does it really matter whether something can be defined as a retool or not?

I really don't wanna come across as some sort of outsider, high-horse, edgy devil's advocate too-superior-to-take-a-side person here, but I've seen a dozen of these conversations by this point and I'm bemused at what they're supposed to achieve. Whether Hun-Gurr is a retool of Silverbolt or not and how much he strays the boundaries and definitions of a retool doesn't matter to me. The reason something being a retool matters is because of how it will feel in-hand. Combiner Wars limbs being constant retools were exhausting because it felt like you were getting the same toy five times in a row. But if Hun-Gurr is a retool but feels nothing like Silverbolt - at least no more than, say, Dead End from Fireflight - then... again, I don't think it matters that he's a retool. If anything, the fact that definitions are being strayed so much and that there's so much doubt and debate shows to me this is a good thing; that Hasbro's designers are really getting good at this thing and not just resorting to laziness when it comes to mold or engineering re-use.

I got a little off-track as I tend to do, but the general point is that I don't really think a toy being a retool or not really matters as long as it doesn't affect the quality of the toy or makes you feel like you've gotten the toy before. And, naturally, we can't know that for sure until we actually get these toys in-hand.

At this point, it's not so much the toy definition than it is the Pride of it. When HungGRrr came out, someone said "That looks like Silverbolt." And was summarily shut down because hey, that wouldn't make sense, right? But now we know more about it, and the truth is neither side is definitively right ot wrong. The Hum,an brain does not like being challenged AND uncertain. It wants to be right, but more importantly it wants to be definitively right. We don't know what Hun-Grr is because he's not Silverbolt. Every part is different. But he's
Identical. Energon Starscream and G2 Screamer/Smokejumper are clearly different toys with similar designs. Chrome dome is clearly not CW Dead End even though the arms and legs look alike. But Silverbolt and HunGrr share a skeleton. They have as much in common with each other as Fastlane and Cloudraker or Pounce and Wingspan.

And as I said, at this point its not abut terminology, its a simple matter of pride.

All right! That's it! I can't take it anymore! Why haven't they revealed Starscream's combined mode!? I mean, it's exactly the same as Elita's save for colors and head, but my point still stands! I need pictures of the actual thing! I need to know how it looks in hand!

o.supreme wrote:So...as soon as I end work on Friday afternoon all these new pics surface heh...Some nice ones too. I'm glad the whole G2 Defensor/Inferno issue got cleared up. I was going to freak out if they actually did release G2 Defensor after I already got rid of my other G2 combiners.

Cleared up? Did I miss something? Because I'm more confused.

I just want to know, FOR SURE, if this is their answer to 'pretend it's G2 Defensor.'

My personal hope is 'no.' The other three got legit G2 releases. I want the legit G2 Defensor. Plus, my plan is to have Inferno displayed as Inferno on his own.

MECHdirge wrote:I don't have an issue with the use of CW Hot Spot into a new version of Inferno. Sure, it isn't perfect and I have a few variations of the mold already, but it's a pretty obvious use of the mold and many of us like more combiner options. I have been very tempted to paint up my own versions of Ratchet (haven't wanted to pay for the Takara set, but leaning towards it), Hoist, Bluestreak (missed the Club release, sadly) and Sideswipe. I imagine I'm not alone in that interest. They seemed like very obvious releases Hasbro could have added at little cost.

I posted something a little earlier along the same lines. At this point, we're so close to getting the full 84-86 cast in The Prime Wars Trilogy that I think it would be silly to NOT release those.

DecepticonFinishline wrote: Cleared up? Did I miss something? Because I'm more confused.

I just want to know, FOR SURE, if this is their answer to 'pretend it's G2 Defensor.'

Inferno was one of the Voyagers leaked the day after SDCC back in late July to be released in wave (3 or 4??) of PotP. It is unknown at this time if there will be a complete new set of Autobot deluxe limbs for him (I hope so), or if he is like CW Cyclonus or Optimus (meant to combine with anybody...)

In either case, this is NOT an attempt at or to imitate G2 Defensor. Its its own thing. I doubt we will see a G2 Defensor, but despite my earlier comment, I'd still love to see one, Its just that a LOT of cool things have been revealed in the past few days that are going to make it hard for me to get them all . If a Hasbro G2 Defensor had been leaked, it just would have been really bad timing is all, but it wasn't so that's good...in a way

A simple question burn in my mind and this is one I'd never thought I would find myself hoping for and yet...

Will we get a new Waverider/Diver? Yes, somehow, this is one thing which has bugged me since the announcement of PotP and the leaks. Oh sure, he's just a Pretender and really I doubt there are that many Masterforce fans. The thing is, out of his G1 wavemates/the Masterforce cast he's the only one missing. Of course he could be in later waves but it just really bug me we haven't seen him. I would understand if they skip some of the earlier pretenders to get to the more popular ones (read: Bludgeon and Thunderwing, the former which has been confirmed already) but Waverider/Diver just make sense given that they added in Metalhawk's pretender shell, implying we'd get something to complete the Masterforce pretender cast.

You know, the funniest part is, that fan mode of silverbolt was posted so long ago, it could have been found during the initial design phase for hungurr, and hastak may have taken huge inspiration from it

Am I the only one in here who doesn't care all that much that X or Y is a 'retool' of Z when it's basically just shared engineering, ESPECIALLY in a line meant for mix-and-match?

Skritz wrote:A simple question burn in my mind and this is one I'd never thought I would find myself hoping for and yet...

Will we get a new Waverider/Diver?

We will, at the very least the tooling for Waverider exists as shown by the bonus Pretender Shell for Legends Grand Maximus. Unfortunately, he's mostly based on Cloudburst, only changing the Shell front and Prime Master plate like Metalhawk and Landmine do.

Now, the front of the bio cards do show the names, but only the symbols for the Prime Masters. Here's the list:

- Dinobot Swoop: Alpha Trion
- Rodimus Prime: Alchemist Prime
- Dinobot Slug: unknown
- Autobot Jazz: Onyx Prime
- Dreadwind: Alchemist Prime
- Optimus Prime: Onyx Prime