The Energon Pub

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 am**

So hey... that Encore Line...

I think we can say that is has officially returned, and is sticking around for a the forseeable future. Which is amazing news. Not only did it survive the God Fire Convoy flop, but now we have two new solicits before either has hit the ground yet. And maybe, we can start surmising what to expect?

We appear to be getting big figures. GFC, Returns Primal, and now Unicron.

They aren't straight reissues, as the line once was. We're getting anime accurate versions, or previously never released versions.

They have apparently moved past G1.

So does this mean they'll continue the trend of big, modern figures? Will they reissue any more G1 molds?

Personally I really like where this line is going 8-)

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:31 am**

It's a pity poor GFC ended up a QC disaster, I kinda wanted to get him at some point to replace my childhood toys.

Speaking of Car Robots/RID, I definitely wouldn't mind a reissue (with good QC) of Gigatron. That's possibly my favourite toy ever and I want to get a replacement for mine as it's completely knackered.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:46 am**

Yeah, GFC was such a QC disappointment considering how gorgeous it looks otherwise, especially with the inclusion of the Super God Sword.

I'm psyched for Returns Convoy as I've always wanted a version of BM Primal that actually sported the cartoon model's color scheme. None of the previous BM Primal toys ever quite got it right.

Unicron (Micron Shūgō-tai Color) is a sight to behold, being the first mass market release of a figure that was once originally limited to Lucky Draw release only.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:51 am**

Honestly, I'm just really excited to see where this line could go.

If they still to big guys, or sets, any of the mega combined Primes from AEC could be up next? I've always drooled over the (TRU exclusive?) clear versions.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:52 am**

In some cases, it looks like these encores are being designed to fit gaps in collections. Is there any other examples that people can think of who need the treatment.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:09 am**

Some other items I could see showing up in this line:

"Leader Class" Superlink Galvatron or Galvatron General - mold never came out in Japan except as a "USA edition", so basically just the Energon release.
Galaxy Convoy with one or both of Sonic Bomber and Leobreaker in a suped-up deco.
Supreme Primus in a more detailed, show accurate deco. The Galaxy Force one isn't identical to the US release, but it's close.
Galaxy Force versions of Quickmix and Menasor with more detailed, show accurate deco - see Superlink Galvatron

I wouldn't go so far as to expect any of these, but they all seem varying levels of reasonable.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:25 pm**

Someone correct me if I'm wrong: the original Encore line died due to poor sales of Fort Max correct?

I would absolutely wet myself if they released Brave Max or Grand Max

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:27 pm**

shajaki wrote:I would absolutely wet myself if they released Brave Max or Grand Max

I just got Brave Max, so I'm good on that front.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:12 pm**

I'd love a Brave Max reissue now that we have Encore GFC, UW Baldigus, and Legends Black Convoy, but I wouldn't want to pay $300 for the mold again. Maybe a Legends repaint to complete the trilogy there.

I guess the current standard for Encore is sort of like an extension of what they did with Devastator 20A.

Things I'd like to see:

-G1 Combaticons in cartoon colors and a new Bruticus chest
-Beast Machines Mega Cheetor in cartoon colors (it wouldn't be perfect, but Encore Primal isn't either)
-Ser-Ket out of Ripclaw
-G1 and G2 Dinobots (long overdue)
-The rest of the tapes we never got reissued now that they're being revitalized (but in the right colors, please).

Emerje

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:01 pm**

I was out of the loop on the GFC Encore. What were the QC issues? Did the original release have them? Was it just GFC, or was it Optimus and Magnus released? If it was just GFC, I would like to see both Fire Convoy and God Magnus rereleased as well as Brave Max. And yes, a Grand Max release would be epic.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:08 pm**

Rodimus Prime wrote:I was out of the loop on the GFC Encore. What were the QC issues? Did the original release have them? Was it just GFC, or was it Optimus and Magnus released? If it was just GFC, I would like to see both Fire Convoy and God Magnus rereleased as well as Brave Max. And yes, a Grand Max release would be epic.

Wrong sound chips, mold degeneration leading to not fitting parts and wrong image in the package. And like Takara had 5 years to prepare for this (there were reports waaaaaay back in 2013 that an Encore version was being hatched)

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:12 pm**

Emerje wrote:-Beast Machines Mega Cheetor in cartoon colors (it wouldn't be perfect, but Encore Primal isn't either)

Make it the Night Slash mold. Japan never got it and it's more show-accurate, sculpt-wise.

Emerje wrote:-Ser-Ket out of Ripclaw

Most doubtful since she's not a character that the Japanese would be all that familiar with.

Emerje wrote:-G1 and G2 Dinobots (long overdue)

The G1 Dinobot molds are among the G1 molds that have been lost/stolen.

Posted: **Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:00 pm**

Sabrblade wrote:
Emerje wrote:-Beast Machines Mega Cheetor in cartoon colors (it wouldn't be perfect, but Encore Primal isn't either)
Make it the Night Slash mold. Japan never got it and it's more show-accurate, sculpt-wise.

Emerje wrote:-Ser-Ket out of Ripclaw
Most doubtful since she's not a character that the Japanese would be all that familiar with.

It's a wishlist more than anything, I don't actually expect results. I think Encore Primal basically negates the chances of any more BM repaints given that it doesn't scale with much of anything. Plus it seems like they're only interested in big ticket items for Encore. Shame eHobby exclusives appear to no longer be a thing, that ended abruptly.

Emerje wrote:-G1 and G2 Dinobots (long overdue)
The G1 Dinobot molds are among the G1 molds that have been lost/stolen.

I know, but "they can rebuild them, they have the technology." If bootlegs can be made then surely they can do it too and do it better. The market and the demand is definitely there, at this point it just feels like laziness.

Emerje

Posted: **Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:02 pm**

fenrir72 wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:I was out of the loop on the GFC Encore. What were the QC issues? Did the original release have them? Was it just GFC, or was it Optimus and Magnus released? If it was just GFC, I would like to see both Fire Convoy and God Magnus rereleased as well as Brave Max. And yes, a Grand Max release would be epic.
Wrong sound chips, mold degeneration leading to not fitting parts and wrong image in the package. And like Takara had 5 years to prepare for this (there were reports waaaaaay back in 2013 that an Encore version was being hatched)

Also (and maybe it was just mine) but some even had missing pieces. And paint apps were an issue (namely Ops small bot mode chest).

Posted: **Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:49 pm**

Emerje wrote:
Emerje wrote:-G1 and G2 Dinobots (long overdue)
The G1 Dinobot molds are among the G1 molds that have been lost/stolen.

I know, but "they can rebuild them, they have the technology." If bootlegs can be made then surely they can do it too and do it better. The market and the demand is definitely there, at this point it just feels like laziness.

Emerje

They can. Easily. They're a toy company ffs. They reverse engineered G1 Soundwave from a toy, rather than having the original. Chinese factories do it all the time, often with almost perfect results (slight exaggeration).

Takara will have master copies of the original sculpts, or failing that - a master copy of the mold to make more molds from (because molds don't last forever, they need a viable source to replace it).

The truth is... some stuff doesn't get rereleased because its not going to be profitable enough or they don't think there is enough interest. Its just possible that Grimlock wouldn't rake back enough money to be worth the cost of either reverse engineering if they don't have an available mold.

Posted: **Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:56 pm**

Amelie wrote:The truth is... some stuff doesn't get rereleased because its not going to be profitable enough or they don't think there is enough interest. Its just possible that Grimlock wouldn't rake back enough money to be worth the cost of either reverse engineering if they don't have an available mold.[/color]

And yet Hasbro felt the need to build the Dile and Zauru molds, two figures that have no nostalgia factor outside Japan, with new joints as an SDCC exclusive. If they can do something like that with something so obscure then surely one of the most popular groups of figures in all of Transformers would be worthy of the time and effort.

Emerje

Posted: **Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:02 pm**

Maybe one of the designers really liked those tapes? :-P

there is probably reasons why the dinibots aren't getting reissued but takara is keeping them to their chest.

Posted: **Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 pm**

What's the policy on reissuing fragile figures? Looking at you Swoop. For that matter, is anybody familiar with procedures concerning patents? Like do new ones have to be drawn up and submitted whenever something is reverse-engineered?

Posted: **Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:14 am**

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:What's the policy on reissuing fragile figures? Looking at you Swoop. For that matter, is anybody familiar with procedures concerning patents? Like do new ones have to be drawn up and submitted whenever something is reverse-engineered?

Patents only last something like 10 years and then have to be renewed, something I don't think Hasbro did since I don't believe they patent their Transformers any more and their original patents have long since expired. The Transformers patents weren't so much about the looks of the toys (that's an entirely different intellectual property), but their transformations. Hasbro was trying to prevent other companies from coming along and copying their figures' transformations and just changing the heads or reshelling the car parts.

Here's an excerpt they commonly used:

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
1. Field of the Invention

This invention relates to a reconfigurable toy assembly, and more particularly to a toy assembly which is adapted to be reversibly transformed to provide two kinds of configurations highly different from each other between a first position and a second position.

And here's how the patent describes the transformation process for the Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen mold

a first element configured to simulate the front portion of a vehicle in a first position and a robotic humanoid trunk in a second position;
a second element swingably mounted on the upper portion of said first element, said second element being configured to simulate a robotic humanoid head in a second position and received in said first element in a first position;
a pair of third elements pivotally connected to two sides of said first element, said third elements being configured to simulate a lower portion and front wheel portion of a vehicle in a first position and a pair of robotic humanoid arms in a second position;
a pair of fourth elements pivotally connected to the lower portion of said first element, said fourth elements being configured to simulate a pair of robotic humanoid legs in a second position and received in said first element in a first position; and
a pair of fifth elements each pivotally connected to the lower portion of the corresponding fourth element.
2. A reconfigurable toy assembly as defined in claim 10 further comprising a sixth element pivotally connected to the lower portion of said first element, said sixth element being configured to simulate a robotic humanoid waist in a second position and received in said first element in a first position, said fourth elements being securely fixed to the lower portion of said sixth element.

Emerje

Posted: **Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:46 am**

Emerje wrote:
Amelie wrote:The truth is... some stuff doesn't get rereleased because its not going to be profitable enough or they don't think there is enough interest. Its just possible that Grimlock wouldn't rake back enough money to be worth the cost of either reverse engineering if they don't have an available mold.[/color]

And yet Hasbro felt the need to build the Dile and Zauru molds, two figures that have no nostalgia factor outside Japan, with new joints as an SDCC exclusive. If they can do something like that with something so obscure then surely one of the most popular groups of figures in all of Transformers would be worthy of the time and effort.

Emerje

They didn't have to rebuild the molds. They probably still had them in storage. Plus, when it comes to exclusives - the usual supply\demand\cost\whatever calculations simply aren't the same. We would see that often with old Botcon exclusives. I'm not seeing the new joints, either, unless you're taking about the pins holding them together.

*also* There could be some Takara release of the same figures round the corner that we're not aware of and that Hasbro took the opportunity whilst it was there to do their own run to keep costs down. For all we know, there could be some G1 Reissue by Hasbro down the pipeline that includes those very cassettes.

*or* if they have used a new mold for a one-off - it could be made of a much cheaper material designed to last less time and be melted down again after.

So many factors. Just like there are so many factors why toys aren't reissued and how they can be. Molds degrade, yes - but they're toy companies - they know how to make more. Even Gamesworkshop, a much, much smaller company on a tighter budget does recasts to keep the molds fresh.

As fans, I know we want to try and make "sense" of why certain toys don't get reissued and why some do (we love our toys and its hard to swallow the "money" pill), but the sole reason is money, unfortunately. Barring special exclusives - if Hasbro know the healthy profit margin is there and it'll pass safety\QC standards - it'll eventually come when its time.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:09 am**

Here's proof that the Dile/Saur molds have been rebuilt for Dairu and Uruaz:

: Dairu; dairu.JPG (42.19 KiB) Viewed 39594 times

: Dile

The black portions are metal (not sure if the original was that way) and it looks like the rivets are molded in now instead of the rivets being separate silver parts on Dile. The neck and tail rivets have been replaced with pins, you can see a faint circle around the pin where they had to fill in the gap.

Saur and Uruaz are basically the same deal.

: SS Legout; SSLegout.JPG (14.99 KiB) Viewed 39594 times

: G1Legout.jpg (20.63 KiB) Viewed 39594 times

That's not even the same face, totally (poorly) reconstructed.

Plus there are some very soft looking details here and there that look like they've been reproduced (those guns are entirely reproduced).

It would be nice if Takara did a proper reproduction of these, but we also thought they'd do the Seacons after Hasbro did their wrong colored version, but that never happened.

Emerje

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:44 pm**

Kinda awesome. A lot of the softer, poorly recreated detailing and joint strengthening remind me of G2 - which had that weird, weird smirk which they also reused on the Commemorative Series release.

Its a pretty poor reconstruction if I'm honest. We know from the past that Takara could have rebuilt this toy better - Hasbro should have, too.

All the same, it still chimes with mold degradation being a bollocks excuse for not reissuing, because if it was really. really worth it for mass market - they could rebuild him. They have the technology #milliondollartransformer

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:34 pm**

Amelie wrote:Kinda awesome. A lot of the softer, poorly recreated detailing and joint strengthening remind me of G2 - which had that weird, weird smirk which they also reused on the Commemorative Series release.

Its a pretty poor reconstruction if I'm honest. We know from the past that Takara could have rebuilt this toy better - Hasbro should have, too.

All the same, it still chimes with mold degradation being a bollocks excuse for not reissuing, because if it was really. really worth it for mass market - they could rebuild him. They have the technology #milliondollartransformer

It's not as bollocks an excuse as you may think. "Recreating molds" means cutting a new set with the master tooling. If all parts of that can be located it's possible, yes. However, Hasbro has gone to state that the process itself is the most expensive part of toy production, by far, and that's just with the "cheap" steel molds for plastic parts only (die cast molds cost a lot more). If the mold is no longer sufficiently usable, one would have to make a really good case to make room in the budget, especially if the part has to be remade from scratch (like with Stepper's head).

That said, mold degradation is real, but "fixable" in sense by smoothing out the offending areas (like LEGO does on a regular basis), which is probably what happened with Dairu here. It is quite odd that the Studio Series (not using the acronym here!) resembles the KO more than the real deal.

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:45 pm**

Since we're on molds, I have a question: why can't Hasbro or Takara (whoever is responsible) just make new molds of the G1 Dinobots? Is it because the return wouldn't cover the cost and make them profit, unless the reissues cost an arm and a leg? I know the original molds have been lost, but don't they have the measurements to build new ones?

Posted: **Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:57 pm**

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:It's not as bollocks an excuse as you may think. "Recreating molds" means cutting a new set with the master tooling. If all parts of that can be located it's possible, yes. However, Hasbro has gone to state that the process itself is the most expensive part of toy production, by far, and that's just with the "cheap" steel molds for plastic parts only (die cast molds cost a lot more). If the mold is no longer sufficiently usable, one would have to make a really good case to make room in the budget, especially if the part has to be remade from scratch (like with Stepper's head).

.. That's.. Basically what I said. Its not really the mold that's the issue - it's financing tooling and production that's the 'prpblem'. Clearly Grimlock, for example - just isn't worth the cost :-P

Im hoping this new encore line delving into new territory grants some more interesting reissues. Golden Age Primus might be fun, or even *gasp* anime G1 Prime and Megatron, repleat with white instead of chrome...

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Takara Transformers Encore - General Discussion Thread

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