Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Throwing my hat in, I agree that we sometimes should innovate, not just redo characters. Or at least need to do what IDW and Animated did and take the big characters and alter them while still keeping some semblance of what the original was. I don't mind some revisiting a character from when a toyline was limited in one way or another (G1 with articulation, Armada being gimmick hampered, BW with GPS and flaky chrome) but I always enjoy new ideas. Though, I did have a laugh the other day because I realized that no matter the gimmick Optimus almost always had an upgrade to that line (Powermaster, action master, even the Beast Era ) with a few exceptions (no headmaster or combiner in the G1 toyline) but nowadays Prime being given new gimmicks is sacrilege

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Yet, the award winning part, where it was recognised by the wider world existed when the 80's series had long ceased. Transformers is no different to any other franchise. Star Trek for example. Star Trek garnered acclaim with TNG, not the original series. Stargate is another such example. Wherein someone took the original idea and expanded on it and made something better.

Sunbow is finished and the 80's have been dead for over three decades. Respect the past but learn to let it go.

Transformers is also a 35 y/o franchise, so the "biggest part" is arguable. Fans from the late 90's or 2000's or Bayformers, likely couldn't care less about G1.

I know MANY rabid Star Trek fans that will vehemently disagree. In fact as time goes on I'd say the comparison (if you want to call it that) between original Series fans of Star Trek and Transformers vs everything that came after is becoming more and more close.

One of my closest friends hates TNG, and anything that came after. It's not my thing either way, but it is what it is.

As for Stargate, I do believe the TV series were popular for a time, but now they are pretty much forgotten, while the original film still comes up in conversations. I have the original film on DVD, and while I did see all of SG-1, I cant tell you much about it from memory, and never watched any of the other spinoffs.

Respecting the Past & Letting it go are two diametrically opposed ideas. You can respect the original series without being a fan of it. It's just when you make statement to prevent and/or hinder/eliminate it's continued resurgence in media that fans get upset.

By the same token Original Series fans should not try to hinder/take away the return/resurgence of anything that came afterwards whether they enjoy it or not.

See the anger doesn't come from having a Galaxy Convoy Deco in Siege. Anger/frustration comes when some fans say *we dont need* any more new 1984 Optimus Primes, or *any more new* Armada, or Bayformers. Let fans have it all, just dont promote the idea that any of it is worthless and needs to end.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I'm doing no such thing??? I'm just putting into context. G1 was the beginning. It isn't everything to every fan. To think so makes Sabrblade's comment even more apt and funny.

I also didn't say it was "everything," but I am often bemused (not really) by how certain folks like to bash people who like G1 (or just bash G1) and it's endless Memorex iterations as if to say "their" Transformers are somehow superior, or that G1 folks simply won't let go. You've never seen me say a bad word about Energon or any of that era, simply because I don't feel the need to belittle. I just wasn't the audience for that era. I still like the way some of them look - I'll be getting a Hot Shot when he comes out, and I've had a hard time getting Galaxy Upgrade Prime because I think it's a cool toy. From an era I wasn't collecting. Every era is somebody's era.

When they made Silverbolt that didn't combine, I didn't really care. I thought he was a cool figure, but I certainly can't say I didn't at least consider what it would have been like if they did Superion, even then. As far as I can see, it's a natural thought. Those characters are grouped together and identified as a group for a reason - they were a group, with no initial context outside of that group.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but people do have plenty of reason to think "Hey, how come Silverbolt, Swindle, Dead End, whoever don't combine with something?" It's not out of the freakin' blue.

My sole bugbear with Transformers, that I've had since Sunbow is the back peddling. The Movie wiped the slate clean for the new series. The Takara series went even further. Then it stops.
Beast Wars changed the tone and setting, Beast Machines (for good or ill) took that even further. Then it stops.
Unicron Trilogy, Animated, Prime, IDW etc etc etc Just when each series is about to show something really new and exciting with the franchise, The brakes are slammed on and the franchise is thrown back to the 80's. It just gets really frustrating after a while.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:My sole bugbear with Transformers, that I've had since Sunbow is the back peddling. The Movie wiped the slate clean for the new series. The Takara series went even further. Then it stops.
Beast Wars changed the tone and setting, Beast Machines (for good or ill) took that even further. Then it stops.
Unicron Trilogy, Animated, Prime, IDW etc etc etc Just when each series is about to show something really new and exciting with the franchise, The brakes are slammed on and the franchise is thrown back to the 80's. It just gets really frustrating after a while.

Not for me. I could buy Primes and Magnuses and Prowls and Megatrons and Soundwaves into perpetuity. As long as they updated and somehow "better" than what I have already.

And the slate wiping didn't work even back then. Why did Optimus and Jazz and Bumblebee and eventually darn near everyone get remade IN GENERATION ONE? Because people asked for them. Relentlessly.

Same with G.I.Joe. Snake-Eyes, Cobra Commander et al got remade in ARAH because people wanted them. The only reason Hasbro has ever done anything is because they've been really great at knowing where their bread is buttered.

sol magnus wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:My sole bugbear with Transformers, that I've had since Sunbow is the back peddling. The Movie wiped the slate clean for the new series. The Takara series went even further. Then it stops.
Beast Wars changed the tone and setting, Beast Machines (for good or ill) took that even further. Then it stops.
Unicron Trilogy, Animated, Prime, IDW etc etc etc Just when each series is about to show something really new and exciting with the franchise, The brakes are slammed on and the franchise is thrown back to the 80's. It just gets really frustrating after a while.

Not for me. I could buy Primes and Magnuses and Prowls and Megatrons and Soundwaves into perpetuity.

And the slate wiping didn't work even back then. Why did Optimus and Jazz and Bumblebee and eventually darn near everyone get remade IN GENERATION ONE? Because people asked for them. Relentlessly.

Same with G.I.Joe. Snake-Eyes, Cobra Commander et al got remade in ARAH because people wanted them. The only reason Hasbro has ever done anything is because they've been really great at knowing where their bread is buttered.

Except that leaves fans of the other eras of Transformers without many figures that are for them. There's the occasional bone thrown to them, but more often than not, Hasbro just prints out more G1 based figures or characters

Sentinel_Primal wrote:

sol magnus wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:My sole bugbear with Transformers, that I've had since Sunbow is the back peddling. The Movie wiped the slate clean for the new series. The Takara series went even further. Then it stops.
Beast Wars changed the tone and setting, Beast Machines (for good or ill) took that even further. Then it stops.
Unicron Trilogy, Animated, Prime, IDW etc etc etc Just when each series is about to show something really new and exciting with the franchise, The brakes are slammed on and the franchise is thrown back to the 80's. It just gets really frustrating after a while.

Not for me. I could buy Primes and Magnuses and Prowls and Megatrons and Soundwaves into perpetuity.

And the slate wiping didn't work even back then. Why did Optimus and Jazz and Bumblebee and eventually darn near everyone get remade IN GENERATION ONE? Because people asked for them. Relentlessly.

Same with G.I.Joe. Snake-Eyes, Cobra Commander et al got remade in ARAH because people wanted them. The only reason Hasbro has ever done anything is because they've been really great at knowing where their bread is buttered.

Except that leaves fans of the other eras of Transformers without many figures that are for them. There's the occasional bone thrown to them, but more often than not, Hasbro just prints out more G1 based figures or characters

I get that. One of the things I have enjoyed about Siege is the serious nods to other points in the brand, putting it all in one umbrella. I can't, however, make Hasbro make stuff from those shows.

I imagine Armada era stuff will be big again in 5-10 years. Maybe. Kids don't seem to have the relationship with toys these days they did in my day. Before video games took over.

Sentinel_Primal wrote:Except that leaves fans of the other eras of Transformers without many figures that are for them. There's the occasional bone thrown to them, but more often than not, Hasbro just prints out more G1 based figures or characters

Exactly. Hasbro does forget that some fans got into Transformers through Rattrap or BW Rampage or Bulkhead or Hot Shot. That 'NEW' does sell.

sol magnus wrote:And the slate wiping didn't work even back then. Why did Optimus and Jazz and Bumblebee and eventually darn near everyone get remade IN GENERATION ONE? Because people asked for them. Relentlessly.

The majority of those slain in G1, either via The Movie or comics such as The Underbase Saga, did not return during its run. So it did work, for everyone who wasn't Optimus Prime.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Sentinel_Primal wrote:Except that leaves fans of the other eras of Transformers without many figures that are for them. There's the occasional bone thrown to them, but more often than not, Hasbro just prints out more G1 based figures or characters

Exactly. Hasbro does forget that some fans got into Transformers through Rattrap or BW Rampage or Bulkhead or Hot Shot. That 'NEW' does sell.

sol magnus wrote:And the slate wiping didn't work even back then. Why did Optimus and Jazz and Bumblebee and eventually darn near everyone get remade IN GENERATION ONE? Because people asked for them. Relentlessly.

The majority of those slain in G1, either via The Movie or comics such as The Underbase Saga, did not return during its run. So it did work, for everyone who wasn't Optimus Prime.

Only if you look at it through the lens of the comic book, which is incredibly myopic.

Optimus Prime, the first character to be remade was in 1988. Well, you got Pretenders of Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock and Starscream, too. Then, in 1989, you got Action Masters with many of the 84'- 85' cast returning (along with new characters that haven't gotten reused enough).

But the O.G. guys came back because people were asking for them to come back.

Re-using names and likenesses is more to do with marketing and renewing trademarks than anything fans (who would likely have all been children, back in the day) would have "asked for".

In the same way you can get fifty variants of Batman or Wolverine in their respective lines.

So... how about them Generations Selects toys?

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The majority of those slain in G1, either via The Movie or comics such as The Underbase Saga, did not return during its run. So it did work, for everyone who wasn't Optimus Prime.

Erm, many of those who got Action Masters did get revived in Issue #75.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Re-using names and likenesses is more to do with marketing and renewing trademarks than anything fans (who would likely have all been children, back in the day) would have "asked for".

Yeah, so you forget about the PARENTS who sent letters to Hasbro about why they killed off x character in Transformers: The Movie because it traumatized their kid (with Prime being the one they most complained about)?

You forget that Duke didn't die in his movie because Hasbro understood, from FEEDBACK, that they might have messed up with Transformers?

I get the feeling you weren't there for any of this.

mordhelm wrote:So... how about them Generations Selects toys?

They're great!

Hasbro has always, and will continue to pour large amounts of resources into market research and focus groups with their core audiences.
They rarely do anything on a whim. What I mean is, it's most likely kids who said/say, "Where's Jazz?", or "I love Bumblebee!".


But yeah! Did you guys see those new Seacons?!?!

Cobotron wrote:Hasbro has always, and will continue to pour large amounts of resources into market research and focus groups with their core audiences.
They rarely do anything on a whim. What I mean is, it's most likely kids who said/say, "Where's Jazz?", or "I love Bumblebee!".


But yeah! Did you guys see those new Seacons?!?!

You mean the Generation One redux Generations Selects Seacons to which I had the giftset for back in 1988?

Other than Cyberverse, I don't think the toys are aimed at kids anymore.

sol magnus wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Re-using names and likenesses is more to do with marketing and renewing trademarks than anything fans (who would likely have all been children, back in the day) would have "asked for".

Yeah, so you forget about the PARENTS who sent letters to Hasbro about why they killed off x character in Transformers: The Movie because it traumatized their kid (with Prime being the one they most complained about)?

You forget that Duke didn't die in his movie because Hasbro understood, from FEEDBACK, that they might have messed up with Transformers?

I get the feeling you weren't there for any of this.

I'm sure letters really mattered to a Mega Corporation. Like a change.org petition...

I was three when I watched The Movie, when it came out (repeatedly, I can quote it word for word to this day) and I loved it! I, and probably others, got into Transformers through The Movie.

And let's not forget that dubbed over bit of narration in the GI Joe movie is rightly ridiculed. Because unlike Prime, who was an alien robot, Duke was a man. Who clearly got speared through the heart... Which can apparently do nothing more than put you in a "healing coma"

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Other than Cyberverse, I don't think the toys are aimed at kids anymore.

Umm, okay? I'm not really talking about now, although I don't know what the difference is.

sol magnus wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Re-using names and likenesses is more to do with marketing and renewing trademarks than anything fans (who would likely have all been children, back in the day) would have "asked for".

Yeah, so you forget about the PARENTS who sent letters to Hasbro about why they killed off x character in Transformers: The Movie because it traumatized their kid (with Prime being the one they most complained about)?

You forget that Duke didn't die in his movie because Hasbro understood, from FEEDBACK, that they might have messed up with Transformers?

I get the feeling you weren't there for any of this.

I'm sure letters really mattered to a Mega Corporation. Like a change.org petition...

I was three when I watched The Movie, when it came out (repeatedly, I can quote it word for word to this day) and I loved it! I, and probably others, got into Transformers through The Movie.

And let's not forget that dubbed over bit of narration in the GI Joe movie is rightly ridiculed. Because unlike Prime, who was an alien robot, Duke was a man. Who clearly got speared through the heart... Which can apparently do nothing more than put you in a "healing coma"

They've stated on the record multiple times that it did in fact matter that they got those letters. They didn't realize what they had until it was gone. And letters were all you had back then.

And whether or not it's ridiculed, Prime is the reason they didn't do it. Because feedback.

I'm gonna get me some Seacons!

I'm happy for those getting these but I won't be, the price just isn't worth it to me, had these been regular releases then it wouldn't have been an issue.

Also I'm of the opinion that too much G1 can be bad for the franchise as it reaches the point of reduced returns, though if they do characters like Spinster who have been languishing then it's a much easier pill to swallow. Basically hasbro and TT just need to remember there's more to G1 then just 84/85, aka bring on Star Saber you fools!

My Cyberverse comment was referring to Cobotron's point.

ZeroWolf wrote:Also I'm of the opinion that too much G1 can be bad for the franchise as it reaches the point of reduced returns, though if they do characters like Spinster who have been languishing then it's a much easier pill to swallow. Basically hasbro and TT just need to remember there's more to G1 then just 84/85, aka bring on Star Saber you fools!

Indeed. It has been commented on that perhaps the latter fans (for UT, Animated etc) aren't as vocal or care as much as Geewun. Hence why those series aren't represented as much. Yet, to play devils advocate, with HasTak emphasis on G1 homage, they might feel gated from the franchise. Their characters aren't being represented, so they go elsewhere?

Aside from the current buzz over the announced new series, Transformers as a franchise, really doesn't want to fall into the same trap that He-Man has languished in for years. It is a very bad idea to cater solely to your original fanbase. For example, TMNT has been remaking itself over and over again for years now, making new fans along the way. Keeping the series current and alive. That is as it should be.

ZeroWolf wrote:I'm happy for those getting these but I won't be, the price just isn't worth it to me, had these been regular releases then it wouldn't have been an issue.
!

Same here. It’s a gorgeous set, but the price is gouged far more than its worth. If I ever find a sale though.....

Ironhidensh wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:I'm happy for those getting these but I won't be, the price just isn't worth it to me, had these been regular releases then it wouldn't have been an issue.
!

Same here. It’s a gorgeous set, but the price is gouged far more than its worth. If I ever find a sale though.....

I bought the 3P Overbite for a friend of mine a while ago. I thought to myself, IF Takara gave us a modern Seacon set someday, that they would be a lot cheaper. Apparently not

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Exactly. Hasbro does forget that some fans got into Transformers through Rattrap or BW Rampage or Bulkhead or Hot Shot. That 'NEW' does sell.

Sorry to bring this up but weren't the last figures of Rattrap, Rhinox, and Waspinator from thrilling 30 heavy shelfwarmers that didn't sell well?

I also remember some people saying that some other beast war figures from earlier generations type lines like Cheetor and Dinobot weren't hot sellers either.

This probably has more to do with the Beastformers thing then the actual characters or series though.

Dang, those look nice!

I really like Lobclaw, he is my favorite of the set so far, though Tentakill is by far the most anticipated figure for me. I'm debating having Tentakill just stand separate from the combiner as his own individual guy, i like him that much.

I also can't wait to get Tentakill so I can recreate my G1 Betatron that Burn helped me create