The Energon Pub

I see that lately we all have been surprised with what the Encore line has in store for us. Never thought I would see a reissue Sky Lynx or Omega Supreme. With that in mind, I have a question...

The Knock-off industry has been booming lately with the release of the dinobots, mirage, Optimus, and the new Metroplex. Is it possible for the Encore line to include figures such as:

Metroplex
Shockwave
Fast Lane & Cloudraker
Sharkticon Gnaw
Wingspan & Pounce
Trypticon
Scorponok
Trailbreaker
The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker


and of course Fortress Maximus

I included a couple of figures I would personally love to have cause I've never seen them

Will it be possible for the Knock-offs to be included in the Encore line?

DavidT wrote:I see that lately we all have been surprised with what the Encore line has in store for us. Never thought I would see a reissue Sky Lynx or Omega Supreme. With that in mind, I have a question...

The Knock-off industry has been booming lately with the release of the dinobots, mirage, Optimus, and the new Metroplex. Is it possible for the Encore line to include figures such as:

Metroplex
Shockwave
Fast Lane & Cloudraker
Sharkticon Gnaw
Wingspan & Pounce
Trypticon
Scorponok
Trailbreaker
The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker


and of course Fortress Maximus

I included a couple of figures I would personally love to have cause I've never seen them

Will it be possible for the Knock-offs to be included in the Encore line?

Well according to Takara they have ether lost or dammaged the molds for

The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker

And they also stated that it would not be cost effective to reverse engineer any exsiting complete toy much like the KO guys have done so we mignt not see an offical release of these guys.

Now wether its truly to expencive for Takara to reverse engineer these figures is questionable but there's other obstacles that Takara has to deal with to making an Encore of some of these figures.

Takara may not be willing to front all the cost to reverse engineer some of the molds and Hasbro will not invest in the reverse engineering process because under U.S. toy safty guide lines a "reverse engineered" toy must meet the same safty laws as a brand new toy.

And very few of the G1 molds would meet the safty guide lines of todays toys.

Now for some reason the U.S. toy safty guide lines for reissued vintage toys are more laxed so the other reissues we have gotten only had to be modified but a "reverse engineered" toy would have to meet a different standerd.

I know it doesnt make much sence but thats the way it is.

For both Wheeljack and Mirage they would have to redesign the stickers because they no longer have the right to produse the old ones.

Shockwave was never a Takara mold so they would have to buy the rights from the corrent owner of the mold....but thats shouldnt be that much of a problem because nether Omega Supreme or Skylinx were Takara molds and thet recently bought the rights to the molds for the Encore line.

Those 4 molds mentioned were destroyed in the 1980s and I do not think that Hasbro has a copy of the destroyed molds. With that being said, the chance of those seeing Encore figures with those molds are slim to none.

I just can't see how these small time KO companies can reverse engineer molds if it is so cost prohibitive. Seems like Takara should be able to do anything these other guys can do.

Well, you know what would be real trippy....

Is if Takara was actually running these small knock-off companies below the radar to test out if the toys would acually be worth their time and money to reissue

yeah...think about that for a sec.

I don't understand how it is any cheaper to make a
completely new design and mold as opposed to
recasting a mold of a previous design that
has been in production before. Especially when they are designs that have a track record for being sought after.
G1 designs have the ability to be reissued with a very high
rate of desire. It will be a while before the same can be said
of most other lines of Transformers(I'm pointing at you Beast Machines).

I really think it is more in the interest to keep said destroyed
molds out of recasting to keep the collectors status high.
Hasbro and Takara know this. They are not stupid.
They also have the foresight to not expend all their resources
at once. Keep the collectors always wanting something.
By the time they actually do officially release, say Wheeljack,
previously destroyed designs will be even more sought after
because they will be the first time rereleased. People will
clamor for them.

Personally I'd like to see Transformers from other lines in the G1
genre. Like a Star Saber or Deszarus. Probably wont happen,
but it would be nice. There are so may Transformers that
were limited or unknown to people who were uneducated about them,
unlike many collectors are now. Hopefully the Encore line
will give us more than just the same releases over and over.
Hey whad'ya know? It has.

Nice list there DavidT, I want a minty Trailbreaker too.

OptimusPrimeRib wrote:I just can't see how these small time KO companies can reverse engineer molds if it is so cost prohibitive. Seems like Takara should be able to do anything these other guys can do.

Well number one look at the cost for some of these KO's.I've seen the ko's or both Mirage and Swoop going for more then $150.00 bucks and their not a good as the originals.

None of the Takara reissues of that size have gone for more then $50.bucks each and most of the offical reissues are a exact copy of the originals.

DISCHARGE wrote:I don't understand how it is any cheaper to make a completely new design and mold as opposed to
recasting a mold of a previous design that
has been in production before.

I dont remember ever hearing from ether Takara or Hasbro that making a completely new design would be cheaper then reverse engineering a old toy mold.

I think it the cost of making them combined with the fact that some of those same figures in question only had one character casted form those molds limits how many G1 characters they could make form the reverse engineered mold, and also the fact that under the current safty laws Hasbro would not be able to sell the reverse engineered molds in the U.S. keeps Takara from investing any real money into those molds.

DISCHARGE wrote:Especially when they are designs that have a track record for being sought after. G1 designs have the ability to be reissued with a very high rate of desire. It will be a while before the same can be said of most other lines of Transformers(I'm pointing at you Beast Machines)..

I agree that the G1 figures may be in higher demand but higher demand really isint a factor when you think about it.

Look at all the repainted figures from the armada, energon and cybertron toy lines that have been poping up in your local Dollar stores under the Transformers universe toyline.

It seems that the newer designs are really eazy to repaint and rebox for masproduction.

DISCHARGE wrote:I really think it is more in the interest to keep said destroyed molds out of recasting to keep the collectors status high.Hasbro and Takara know this. They are not stupid.

The fact that their not stupid kind of proves your thinking wrong.

Hasbro and Takara make now money at all by keeping those figures "collectors status high" by not trying to reissue them.

And by doing as you suggest they open the doors to a world of cheap knock off's and bootlegs that only searve to destroy the very "high collectors status" that your theroy suggests that their trying to maintain.

DISCHARGE wrote:Personally I'd like to see Transformers from other lines in the G1 genre. Like a Star Saber or Deszarus. Probably wont happen,but it would be nice.

I would love to see this too.

I'm hoping we get more seekers. So far, we only got Encore Starscream.

I'd like to see:

Devestator
Shockwave
Jetfire (can they use the same mold, or no?)
Hound

And a bunch of others but those are on the top of my list.

Shockwave06 wrote:I'd like to see:

Devestator
Shockwave
Jetfire (can they use the same mold, or no?)
Hound

And a bunch of others but those are on the top of my list.

both Jetfire's and Shockwave's molds are not owened by Takara but my guess is that Shockwaves mold can be bought.

Jetfire's mold on the other had is still being used to make Macross figures so I doubt that we'll ever see him in the Encore line.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

DavidT wrote:I see that lately we all have been surprised with what the Encore line has in store for us. Never thought I would see a reissue Sky Lynx or Omega Supreme. With that in mind, I have a question...

The Knock-off industry has been booming lately with the release of the dinobots, mirage, Optimus, and the new Metroplex. Is it possible for the Encore line to include figures such as:

Metroplex
Shockwave
Fast Lane & Cloudraker
Sharkticon Gnaw
Wingspan & Pounce
Trypticon
Scorponok
Trailbreaker
The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker


and of course Fortress Maximus

I included a couple of figures I would personally love to have cause I've never seen them

Will it be possible for the Knock-offs to be included in the Encore line?

Well according to Takara they have ether lost or dammaged the molds for

The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker

And they also stated that it would not be cost effective to reverse engineer any exsiting complete toy much like the KO guys have done so we mignt not see an offical release of these guys.

Now wether its truly to expencive for Takara to reverse engineer these figures is questionable but there's other obstacles that Takara has to deal with to making an Encore of some of these figures.

Takara may not be willing to front all the cost to reverse engineer some of the molds and Hasbro will not invest in the reverse engineering process because under U.S. toy safty guide lines a "reverse engineered" toy must meet the same safty laws as a brand new toy.

And very few of the G1 molds would meet the safty guide lines of todays toys.

Now for some reason the U.S. toy safty guide lines for reissued vintage toys are more laxed so the other reissues we have gotten only had to be modified but a "reverse engineered" toy would have to meet a different standerd.

I know it doesnt make much sence but thats the way it is.

For both Wheeljack and Mirage they would have to redesign the stickers because they no longer have the right to produse the old ones.

Shockwave was never a Takara mold so they would have to buy the rights from the corrent owner of the mold....but thats shouldnt be that much of a problem because nether Omega Supreme or Skylinx were Takara molds and thet recently bought the rights to the molds for the Encore line.

Not true. G1 Soundwave was reveresed engineered from Sound Blasers mold and released in the US. Also, on the BotCon tour the Hasbro guys said making a mold from an existing figure is a piece of cake.

There is also speculation that these knockoff companies are not reverse engineering the molds, but indeed do have the original molds as they might have bought the factories where Takara/Hasbro used to make toys in in China.

I personally thing that it is true that a knocked off mold might not be as attractive, but being that each knockoff dinobot goes for $100 plus, Hasbro could do a $150 giftset of all 5 like the Predaking giftset and have a more attractive product than the knockoffs.

Edit: And about Shockwave, I think the company that made Sky Lynx and Omega Supreme also made Shockwave and supposely Takara bought that company after G1, so they do own the rights now (if it's true that the same company made them).

GetterDragun wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

DavidT wrote:I see that lately we all have been surprised with what the Encore line has in store for us. Never thought I would see a reissue Sky Lynx or Omega Supreme. With that in mind, I have a question...

The Knock-off industry has been booming lately with the release of the dinobots, mirage, Optimus, and the new Metroplex. Is it possible for the Encore line to include figures such as:

Metroplex
Shockwave
Fast Lane & Cloudraker
Sharkticon Gnaw
Wingspan & Pounce
Trypticon
Scorponok
Trailbreaker
The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker


and of course Fortress Maximus

I included a couple of figures I would personally love to have cause I've never seen them

Will it be possible for the Knock-offs to be included in the Encore line?

Well according to Takara they have ether lost or dammaged the molds for

The Dinobots
Mirage
Wheeljack
Sunstreaker

And they also stated that it would not be cost effective to reverse engineer any exsiting complete toy much like the KO guys have done so we mignt not see an offical release of these guys.

Now wether its truly to expencive for Takara to reverse engineer these figures is questionable but there's other obstacles that Takara has to deal with to making an Encore of some of these figures.

Takara may not be willing to front all the cost to reverse engineer some of the molds and Hasbro will not invest in the reverse engineering process because under U.S. toy safty guide lines a "reverse engineered" toy must meet the same safty laws as a brand new toy.

And very few of the G1 molds would meet the safty guide lines of todays toys.

Now for some reason the U.S. toy safty guide lines for reissued vintage toys are more laxed so the other reissues we have gotten only had to be modified but a "reverse engineered" toy would have to meet a different standerd.

I know it doesnt make much sence but thats the way it is.

For both Wheeljack and Mirage they would have to redesign the stickers because they no longer have the right to produse the old ones.

Shockwave was never a Takara mold so they would have to buy the rights from the corrent owner of the mold....but thats shouldnt be that much of a problem because nether Omega Supreme or Skylinx were Takara molds and thet recently bought the rights to the molds for the Encore line.

Not true. G1 Soundwave was reveresed engineered from Sound Blasers mold and released in the US. Also, on the BotCon tour the Hasbro guys said making a mold from an existing figure is a piece of cake.

Whats not true.I never said it would be hard for them to do.Just costly and toped with the other issues that would be attached to making it happened most unlikily.

And what was really "reveresed engineered" from Soundblaster into the G1 looking Soundwave????.The only change was the tape deck.Its not like the G1 looking Soundwave is a dead ringer for the original Soundwave.

And Soundblaster's mold was originaly a 1987 release so under U.S. safty laws it would still fit under the reissue vintage toys clause.

GetterDragun wrote:There is also speculation that these knockoff companies are not reverse engineering the molds, but indeed do have the original molds as they might have bought the factories where Takara/Hasbro used to make toys in in China.

I personally thing that it is true that a knocked off mold might not be as attractive, but being that each knockoff dinobot goes for $100 plus, Hasbro could do a $150 giftset of all 5 like the Predaking giftset and have a more attractive product than the knockoffs.

That wouldnt be a bad idea.

GetterDragun wrote:Edit: And about Shockwave, I think the company that made Sky Lynx and Omega Supreme also made Shockwave and supposely Takara bought that company after G1, so they do own the rights now (if it's true that the same company made them).

I believe that they were different companies but Takara now owens them all.

My list:

- Shockwave
- Wheeljack
- Sunstreaker
- Trailbreaker
- Cyclonus
- Scourge
- Trigger Happy
- Slugslinger
- Ramjet
- Thrust
- Springer

Basically all the good G1 stuff that hasn't been reissued lately or at all.

We definantely need more Decepticons.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I think it the cost of making them combined with the fact that some of those same figures in question only had one character casted form those molds limits how many G1 characters they could make form the reverse engineered mold, and also the fact that under the current safty laws Hasbro would not be able to sell the reverse engineered molds in the U.S. keeps Takara from investing any real money into those molds.

I don't mean to be rude, but where are you getting your facts to base your statements? What Hasbro is or is not able to do in the U.S. does not have any bearing on Takara's company and their projects.

Hasbro and Takara are two companies that operate independently. Takara does not need to care about the safety laws in America if they wish to create and sell the Encore figures in Japan or other countries.

Hasbro and Takara will sometimes work on projects together. But that does not mean that all projects are done together.

It seems that you are suggesting that Hasbro and Takara are working together to help issue the Encore figures. But I have not seen any evidence to suggest that Hasbro has provided any money or resereach to help Takara with their Encore reissue project. In fact, Takara and Hasbro have each released statements over the past year stating that they are each doing less projects together. Instead, they will be working on their own projects.

If Hasbro did invest money in the Encore reissue project, then why is Takara selling the Encore figures #1-4 in the U.S. via Walmart? That would certainly hurt Hasbro's profit if they wish to release them in the future.

So, will Takara release any more Encores?

We will be getting Jazz, Omega Supreme, and some mini-bots soon. What will be next? I hope it will be Ramjet.

Stormrider wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I think it the cost of making them combined with the fact that some of those same figures in question only had one character casted form those molds limits how many G1 characters they could make form the reverse engineered mold, and also the fact that under the current safty laws Hasbro would not be able to sell the reverse engineered molds in the U.S. keeps Takara from investing any real money into those molds.

I don't mean to be rude, but where are you getting your facts to base your statements? What Hasbro is or is not able to do in the U.S. does not have any bearing on Takara's company and their projects.

Hasbro and Takara are two companies that operate independently. Takara does not need to care about the safety laws in America if they wish to create and sell the Encore figures in Japan or other countries.

Hasbro and Takara will sometimes work on projects together. But that does not mean that all projects are done together.

It seems that you are suggesting that Hasbro and Takara are working together to help issue the Encore figures. But I have not seen any evidence to suggest that Hasbro has provided any money or resereach to help Takara with their Encore reissue project. In fact, Takara and Hasbro have each released statements over the past year stating that they are each doing less projects together. Instead, they will be working on their own projects.

If Hasbro did invest money in the Encore reissue project, then why is Takara selling the Encore figures #1-4 in the U.S.? That would certainly hurt Hasbro's profit if they wish to release them in the future.

Thank you for not being rude and allow me to try to do the same.

For some reason every time I try to give my opinion on some thing there are those that think I'm resighting some facts that I have aquired by some meens or the other.

If you [or anyone else that misunderstood my post] re-read my post on the topic I didnt say that Hasbro has or has not invested in the encore line ,of and reissue line for that matter, only that the fact that they mostliky will not invest in a re-engineered mold may be a key reason why Takara has yet to make a mold of one of the many lost or damaged figures.

I was not giving facts but my opinion on the issue based on the best knowen facts and my best guess as to a reason.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I think it the cost of making them combined with the fact that some of those same figures in question only had one character casted form those molds limits how many G1 characters they could make form the reverse engineered mold, and also the fact that under the current safty laws Hasbro would not be able to sell the reverse engineered molds in the U.S. keeps Takara from investing any real money into those molds.

I don't mean to be rude, but where are you getting your facts to base your statements? What Hasbro is or is not able to do in the U.S. does not have any bearing on Takara's company and their projects.

Hasbro and Takara are two companies that operate independently. Takara does not need to care about the safety laws in America if they wish to create and sell the Encore figures in Japan or other countries.

Hasbro and Takara will sometimes work on projects together. But that does not mean that all projects are done together.

It seems that you are suggesting that Hasbro and Takara are working together to help issue the Encore figures. But I have not seen any evidence to suggest that Hasbro has provided any money or resereach to help Takara with their Encore reissue project. In fact, Takara and Hasbro have each released statements over the past year stating that they are each doing less projects together. Instead, they will be working on their own projects.

If Hasbro did invest money in the Encore reissue project, then why is Takara selling the Encore figures #1-4 in the U.S.? That would certainly hurt Hasbro's profit if they wish to release them in the future.

Thank you for not being rude and allow me to try to do the same.

For some reason every time I try to give my opinion on some thing there are those that think I'm resighting some facts that I have aquired by some meens or the other.

If you [or anyone else that misunderstood my post] re-read my post on the topic I didnt say that Hasbro has or has not invested in the encore line ,of and reissue line for that matter, only that the fact that they mostliky will not invest in a re-engineered mold may be a key reason why Takara has yet to make a mold of one of the many lost or damaged figures.

I was not giving facts but my opinion on the issue based on the best knowen facts and my best guess as to a reason.

Okay, this clears things up a little.

Takara has certainly given us a few pleasant surprises recently with the release of Skylynx and Omega Supreme. I think we can both agree then that nothing is impossible to reissue if Takara has a will and money, right?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
And what was really "reveresed engineered" from Soundblaster into the G1 looking Soundwave????.The only change was the tape deck.Its not like the G1 looking Soundwave is a dead ringer for the original Soundwave.

Soundwave and Soundblasters mold was damaged, they had to rebuild the mold from Soundblaster's.

I´d like:

- Seekers Wave 2 - Thrust, Ramjet (and Dirge if you will)
- Trailbreaker at last
- Trypticon
- Deluxe Insecticons

Stormrider wrote:Okay, this clears things up a little.

Takara has certainly given us a few pleasant surprises recently with the release of Skylynx and Omega Supreme. I think we can both agree then that nothing is impossible to reissue if Takara has a will and money, right?

Oh yeah anything is possible.....I'm just a pessimest and I doubt that they'll do it.

But I was shocked by the Omega Supreme announcement so who knows.

GetterDragun wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
And what was really "reveresed engineered" from Soundblaster into the G1 looking Soundwave????.The only change was the tape deck.Its not like the G1 looking Soundwave is a dead ringer for the original Soundwave.

Soundwave and Soundblasters mold was damaged, they had to rebuild the mold from Soundblaster's.

It's my understanding that the original Soundwave mold was damaged in the early 80's.

So when they made Soundblaster they went way back to one of the early Cassett Man molds and changed a few small details.

And they did the same when it came to the Takara and the U.S. reissue's of Soundwave.The only re-working needed was a touch up of the head and casset door.Not the kind of work that has been said to be needed for some of the other damaged molds.

http://www.microforever.com/MC10cassetteman.htm

OptimusPrimeRib wrote:I just can't see how these small time KO companies can reverse engineer molds if it is so cost prohibitive. Seems like Takara should be able to do anything these other guys can do.

I'm with you. If some tiny company can produce G1 figures, why can't Takara? Especially since Takara produced these figures in the first place. Didn't the recent Masters of the Universe figures get reverse engineered from samples from the 80s? Why wouldn't Takara do that also?

Dagon wrote:

OptimusPrimeRib wrote:I just can't see how these small time KO companies can reverse engineer molds if it is so cost prohibitive. Seems like Takara should be able to do anything these other guys can do.

I'm with you. If some tiny company can produce G1 figures, why can't Takara? Especially since Takara produced these figures in the first place. Didn't the recent Masters of the Universe figures get reverse engineered from samples from the 80s? Why wouldn't Takara do that also?

Well TF's would be a bit harder to reverse engineered then most of the Masters of the Universe toyline but I understand where your coming from.

[quote="DISCHARGE"]
I really think it is more in the interest to keep said destroyed
molds out of recasting to keep the collectors status high.
Hasbro and Takara know this. They are not stupid.
They also have the foresight to not expend all their resources
at once. Keep the collectors always wanting something.
By the time they actually do officially release, say Wheeljack,
previously destroyed designs will be even more sought after
because they will be the first time rereleased. People will
clamor for them.

quote]

ive heard this idea several times before and to my mind its sounds like total nonsense. the suggestion that takara has any interest in the value of vintage pieces besides some general interest just doesnt make sense. MISB G1 toys all go for high values, even those reissued like prowl, in fact they (prowls) tend to go for more than the dinobots that havent been reissued.

id be incredibly suprised of some takara business planners sat together and said 'lets not reissue sunstreaker/dinos/mirage/wheeljack for years and years and then when we have all those 40-50 year old Gwonners foaming well release them and make a load of money' no, that is plain ridiculous.

this is on par with the suggestion (and if takara themselves said this its possibly just an excuse) that devastator will not be reissued because of all the KO's. how many collectors out there would not buy a reissue gift set of devastator at say $50-70 (and he only 6 small simple bots so wont be that expensive-he could be less than that) just because you have already bought some piece of **** (and they are **** by any reasonable standard) $4 KO???

Well I don't know how many people have purchased those high dollar KO's like the Dinobots, but I would be willing to bet there are more collectors out there that passed up on them than bought them. I passsed up on them because for the most part I could buy a loose complete orignal version for what they are charging. Also quality is always a concern even for high end KO's. I would pay $30 - $50 a piece for encore version, and I would imagine quite a few of those who bought the KO would go ahead and buy these as well. The few KO's I've bought were total garbage.

microclone wrote:

DISCHARGE wrote:I really think it is more in the interest to keep said destroyed
molds out of recasting to keep the collectors status high.
Hasbro and Takara know this. They are not stupid.
They also have the foresight to not expend all their resources
at once. Keep the collectors always wanting something.
By the time they actually do officially release, say Wheeljack,
previously destroyed designs will be even more sought after
because they will be the first time rereleased. People will
clamor for them.

quote]

ive heard this idea several times before and to my mind its sounds like total nonsense. the suggestion that takara has any interest in the value of vintage pieces besides some general interest just doesnt make sense. MISB G1 toys all go for high values, even those reissued like prowl, in fact they (prowls) tend to go for more than the dinobots that havent been reissued.

id be incredibly suprised of some takara business planners sat together and said 'lets not reissue sunstreaker/dinos/mirage/wheeljack for years and years and then when we have all those 40-50 year old Gwonners foaming well release them and make a load of money' no, that is plain ridiculous.

this is on par with the suggestion (and if takara themselves said this its possibly just an excuse) that devastator will not be reissued because of all the KO's. how many collectors out there would not buy a reissue gift set of devastator at say $50-70 (and he only 6 small simple bots so wont be that expensive-he could be less than that) just because you have already bought some piece of **** (and they are **** by any reasonable standard) $4 KO???

You're entirely entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately
business is run that way. With limited editions, pre-sales,
exclusives. That is exactly what they do. They wait until
they feel the time is right and the market is open for
certain items. Sometimes they just wait too long.
If Takara had no interest in the vintage market they wouldn't be
re-releasing past designs.