The Energon Pub

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 11:38 am**

So as many of you know, I am a G-wunner, but I'm also a Beast Wars fan, and a little of an Armada, energon, and cybertron fan.. i am a huge fan of the Japanese expanded g-1 era, and their subsequent Beast Wars additions which painted a cosmic picture of far reaching war between the maximals and Predicons, and apparently decepticons and autobots as well..

Any ways, I have seen some changes over the past 30 years that have made me wonder as to why the toy industry has gone the way it has in their paint applications and materials process..

I site this picture as an example:

http://www.seibertron.com/toys/fullsize ... 1&image=92

why is it that chrome coloring was dropped from toys? I felt it made them look flashier and more metallic. Why are paint applications less realistic, and why is grey the official metal color for plastic moldings? Why do easter egg colors prevail as transformers coloring? why do we have to scramble to buy an exclusive thats painted metallic and has a beter look, then it should be produced like that accross the board..shouldn't it?

Diecast has apparantly become too expensive to incorporate into toys, but what about the types of plastics used, some are very brittle and break with the slightest touch..some are plyable and can bend with a certain amout of reason without breaking, and yet the use of rubber to replace items that may break because of ridiculous toy laws also inhibits the use of finer molds, and materials..

So what kind of speculations do you have for these changes, and why is it that the prices have gone up on things that are much less in quality then their predecessors?

Is it for the better?

Is it for the worse?

Articulation seems to be a real improvement over the original toys that were produced in the 1980s..

Alternators is in my opinion the closest thing to what G-1 should have been had it been revamped and updated for todays market. Granted there is no diecast present but, the articulation and detail seem to harken back to the original G-1 line more so then the mass releases we have seen. Granted Classics is a line that looks and feels like a better rendition of G-1, but what if that energy was put twards the classics as alternators, including the jets and megatron?? its the feel and transformation of alternators and g-1 that have the similarity, not the actual bots looking like their g-1 counterparts, that I speak of..

I believe toy laws have curved the age range higher, and are the reason the transformers look and feel more like toys then good representations of realistic transformers..

Yet i know some of you will say, they are 20.00 dollars a piece and most parents couldn't aford the costs, and yes times have changed and the fact that they cost 20.00 is basically the inflation of the prices from the 80s due to the concept being similar. But lest we forget, toy companies profit from the sales and in most cases the price of production versus street sale value is extremely lop sided.. so believ it or not Hasbro makes money on the Alternators and quite a bit, I'm sure, regardless of how much it costs to produce them..

and 20.00 dollars is almost what it costs to purchase Barbie dolls at just about every store I have seen them. The difference is there are no freezing of the retail price, and Toys R US and wal-mart are able to lower the barbie retail price for customers to like 14.00 whereas I have yet to see Alternators below 20.00..

If anyone here has seen them below 20.00 and not as a clearence item, please let me know, I'll stand corrected..

I just would like to know, when this change came about, and why?

Is the quality of Merchandise better for it, or worse because of it.

Is the overall toy changes both good and bad, and a trade off for what we lacked in other areas, like articulation and likeness?

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 12:04 pm**

skywarp-2 wrote:G-wunner

Ugh.. I hate that term..
I am a G1 fan.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 12:08 pm**

from my experience with model painting(very very limited), the chrome paint has a much longer drying time, runs/smudges easily, etc. perhaps the reason they have gone away from it is in order to produce the most amt of toys the fastest.

and i agree withy CB...i'm not a g-wunner, i'm a g1 fan

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm**

I just think you're wrong.

I think you're flat out wrong.

Quality on modern Transformers is great. It's absolutely great.

The styles, the range of options, the articulation, the detailing, the size, the gimmicks.

All of these things have improved.

I really wouldn't mind discussing this kind of issue but the way you present it...your arguments are always the same, only with some minor details flipped here and there.

We have beat the living **** out of this dead horse. Now that **** is dead too.

The thing is, it's so hard to discuss your issues because you've got such a schizophanic take on them.

Here, modern toys aren't as good as they were. We're not getting the same quality for our dollars.

In another thread, Masterpiece toys are the only thing worth owning...

Then there was the one where you talked about how Classics weren't even really good enough for your tastse.

So, I don't even know where to go with the discussion.

How about you play Devil's advocate and argue that Beast Machines was the greates line of Transformers ever?

Now that, would be interesting.

Not being mean or rude here, so don't take it personal.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 12:20 pm**

Counterpunch wrote:
How about you play Devil's advocate and argue that Beast Machines was the greates line of Transformers ever?

Now that, would be interesting.

U mean it wasn't? you've shattered my entire world CP, shattered. How could anything that can be abbreviated BM not be pure gold?

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 12:39 pm**

I will say that I think the toys have improved. Even looking at the picture you linked to, I see an improvement.

G1 Prime had:

- Shiny chromey bits.
- A die-cast cab.
- Roller.

G1 Prime also had:

- A blocky design. Seriously.
- Following on from that in a way, a simple transformation.
- Little articulation.
- Stickers, which may be fun to apply, but they peel and the cab stripe could have been painted.
- Hands that have to be added separately; they don't transform as part of the whole.
- Paint that chips because it's die-cast.
- Arms that are easy to break (poor me :-(

).

Movie Prime has:

- A good shape, form and design.
- A fun-looking, interesting transformation.
- Articulation.
- Paint, not stickers.
- All his body parts are in there and transform.
- Plastic. It may not be as weighty, but I've haven't had a breakage, scratch or dent in any of the recent lines.
- The use of rubber / plastic means they can have longer smokestacks, which for some reason people love though I personally can't see what they add (or what neutered stacks take away).
- Sadly, no Roller.
- But the voyager has Peter Cullen.

Plus, the Cybertron line was excellent. Classics, for the most part, was a ripper line, too.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 1:00 pm**

Counterpunch wrote:I just think you're wrong.

I think you're flat out wrong.

Quality on modern Transformers is great. It's absolutely great.

The styles, the range of options, the articulation, the detailing, the size, the gimmicks.

All of these things have improved.

I really wouldn't mind discussing this kind of issue but the way you present it...your arguments are always the same, only with some minor details flipped here and there.

We have beat the living **** out of this dead horse. Now that **** is dead too.

The thing is, it's so hard to discuss your issues because you've got such a schizophanic take on them.

Here, modern toys aren't as good as they were. We're not getting the same quality for our dollars.

In another thread, Masterpiece toys are the only thing worth owning...

Then there was the one where you talked about how Classics weren't even really good enough for your tastse.

So, I don't even know where to go with the discussion.

How about you play Devil's advocate and argue that Beast Machines was the greates line of Transformers ever?

Now that, would be interesting.

Not being mean or rude here, so don't take it personal.

Granted I think you have taken my presentation to heart, and i don't think this issue is a dead horse, atleast not when it comes to so many things that have changed over the years and as a G-1 fan, didn't mean to offend anyone, I believe that there are some ideas and concepts that were left behind some time ago by toy companies. I haven't really placed my point of view on the discussion topic, read it again if you like, I was simply pointing out differences that i have noticed over the course of the many toylines. Though i probably could have worded things a little better.. I didn't want an agreement, just an explaination or speculation as to why things have changed and what do fans think about it. Is it for the better, or do they think its been steadily getting worse?

Besides some of your opinions are what has changed my mind about the classics and the current toylines that have been released. So, granted we have discussed some of this before and yes my views have been a little skewed, but I have the right to change my mind, and you and your points have been a great influence on that.. but don't think that you haven't atleast been somewhat prone to conceed that there is a marked difference in the style and quality over the years.. some bad and some good..??

Incidentally before i came here, I only liked the takara Reissues, the Masterpiece Line and alternators..I have since become a huge fan of the Beast wars reissues, beast wars in general, and the sports label, music label, revoltech and movie line.. not to mention I was a staunch Dream wave fan and couldn't get around the IDW thing, which now I actually like IDW.. and I got labeled as Pat Lee for it.. so I see a definate lack of understanding in the fan community and less tolerance then there should be..Granted this fandom is nowhere near as bad and critical as the Star Wars fandom, thats like Eastern Germany before the wall came down..!!

I was just trying to figure out what has prompted all those changes and is the line better for it? Do fans like the way things have turned out...ect.. ect..

This is my one last thread concerning those changes.. my point of view has grown and changed alot since I first set words to screen here at Seibertron.com, and as such please don't attack me for it..I'm growing and learning just like everyone else does day to day..

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 1:10 pm**

skywarp-2 wrote:Granted I think you have taken my presentation to heart, and i don't think this issue is a dead horse, atleast not when it comes to so many things that have changed over the years and as a G-1 fan, didn't mean to offend anyone, I believe that there are some ideas and concepts that were left behind some time ago by toy companies. I haven't really placed my point of view on the discussion topic, read it again if you like, I was simply pointing out differences that i have noticed over the course of the many toylines. Though i probably could have worded things a little better.. I didn't want an agreement, just an explaination or speculation as to why things have changed and what do fans think about it. Is it for the better, or do they think its been steadily getting worse?

Besides some of your opinions are what has changed my mind about the classics and the current toylines that have been released. So, granted we have discussed some of this before and yes my views have been a little skewed, but I have the right to change my mind, and you and your points have been a great influence on that.. but don't think that you haven't atleast been somewhat prone to conceed that there is a marked difference in the style and quality over the years.. some bad and some good..??

Incidentally before i came here, I only liked the takara Reissues, the Masterpiece Line and alternators..I have since become a huge fan of the Beast wars reissues, beast wars in general, and the sports label, music label, revoltech and movie line.. not to mention I was a staunch Dream wave fan and couldn't get around the IDW thing, which now I actually like IDW.. and I got labeled as Pat Lee for it.. so I see a definate lack of understaning in the fan community and less tolerance then there should be..

I was just trying to figure out what has prompted all those changes and is the line better for it? Do fans like they way things have turned out...ect.. ect..

This is my one last thread concerning those changes.. my point of view has grown and changed alot since I first set words to screen here at Seibertron.com, and as such please don't attack me for it..I'm growing and learning just like everyone else does day to day..

It's all good in the 'hood man!

Let me think on it some and I'll get you a proper response in the near future.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 1:13 pm**

no problem...just thought you should know, i'm not a closed book..my story keeps changing and rewriting itself over time, and just gets better and better..and its because of you guys here on this forum..thanks for the cool support and discussions..Broadening others who have views like me, and who have been out of the hobby for like ever, only stengthens our fan base and support..

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 1:44 pm**

skywarp-2 wrote:no problem...just thought you should know, i'm not a closed book..my story keeps changing and rewriting itself over time, and just gets better and better..and its because of you guys here on this forum..thanks for the cool support and discussions..Broadening others who have views like me, and who have been out of the hobby for like ever, only stengthens our fan base and support..

In other words, you're "transforming".....

*rimshot*

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 1:57 pm**

How about you play Devil's advocate and argue that Beast Machines was the greates line of Transformers ever?

Now that, would be interesting.

I don't think that's fair... You're forgetting AniMorphs. Not even the Devil can advocate those!

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 2:05 pm**

zodconvoy wrote:
How about you play Devil's advocate and argue that Beast Machines was the greates line of Transformers ever?

Now that, would be interesting.

I don't think that's fair... You're forgetting AniMorphs. Not even the Devil can advocate those!

I ever mention how I hate the 'F' word?

Fair...

bleh

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 2:08 pm**

Leonardo wrote:I will say that I think the toys have improved. Even looking at the picture you linked to, I see an improvement.

G1 Prime had:

- Shiny chromey bits.
- A die-cast cab.
- Roller.

G1 Prime also had:

- A blocky design. Seriously.
- Following on from that in a way, a simple transformation.
- Little articulation.
- Stickers, which may be fun to apply, but they peel and the cab stripe could have been painted.
- Hands that have to be added separately; they don't transform as part of the whole.
- Paint that chips because it's die-cast.
- Arms that are easy to break (poor me ).

Movie Prime has:

- A good shape, form and design.
- A fun-looking, interesting transformation.
- Articulation.
- Paint, not stickers.
- All his body parts are in there and transform.
- Plastic. It may not be as weighty, but I've haven't had a breakage, scratch or dent in any of the recent lines.
- The use of rubber / plastic means they can have longer smokestacks, which for some reason people love though I personally can't see what they add (or what neutered stacks take away).
- Sadly, no Roller.
- But the voyager has Peter Cullen.

Plus, the Cybertron line was excellent. Classics, for the most part, was a ripper line, too.

You also forgot that the gaping hole in G1 Prime's back in bot mode isn't one of his better features either.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 2:26 pm**

I think both the golden age tfs and modern times tfs both have their pluses.

Back in the day, while the designs were simple and blocky, die-cast was a lot cheaper. So you really got a lot for your money.

Nowadays, the figures may be made fromplastic, but the design and, for the most part, the attention to detail is beautiful. ( I just can't stop staring at CL Jetfire's back- it's mesmirising).

So we may have dropped the metal, but we have gained alot as well.
And while I love the stickers as much as the next guy, paint apps just have a lot staying power- while the sticker on the right foot of my G1 Tracks is peeling away, the paint on my Masterpiece Prime- which really has seen some cruetly due to my overzealous transforming of the thing- clings on like a leech.

We lost something, we gained something. The quality has always been the same. Nothing has really changed.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 2:58 pm**

Diecast is a PIG of a material. Especilly for what is suposed to be a hard wareing toy.
It is impossible to stop all the paint chiping off, it seriously reduces what you can design too (unless you want to pay leader prices for tf that is smaller than a scout/basic (THS) or you wanna pay a lot more than most toys these days go for (20th/MP). Hasbro are designing toys for kids here. Diecast is not a very good material for kids in all honesty.

AND Skywarp-2, you seem to have forgotten one major line.
Titainiums.
Diecast.
Proper paint jobs.
Maybe not quite crome, but shiny silver and gold painted parts.

Guess what.
They cost a lot for what you get.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 3:33 pm**

Leonardo wrote:- Stickers, which may be fun to apply

Disagree, I've had bad experiences with stickers not going on right, or realzing too late that I put one on wrong. To say nothing of, as you mentioned, the issue with them coming off.

Don't point me towards Reprolabels. We shouldn't NEED Reprolabels.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 3:48 pm**

Nemesis Primal wrote:
Leonardo wrote:- Stickers, which may be fun to apply

Disagree, I've had bad experiences with stickers not going on right, or realzing too late that I put one on wrong. To say nothing of, as you mentioned, the issue with them coming off.

Don't point me towards Reprolabels. We shouldn't NEED Reprolabels.

Awww I like repo labels, and not to mention their Alternators line up looks great on the bots.. if the stickers have an issue with pealing I suggest you superglue them on... or stick them on and paint a thin lair of clearcoat on them, it'll blend in after dried.. if that's way too much work, then what are you buying stickers for?

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 4:11 pm**

While I love the heft of diecast when done right, like with Bandai Chogokins, I'm not sorry to see it gone, especially considering what a huge disappointment the Titanium transformers are. Besides, we didn't really have any diecast in G1 once Hasbro started designing their own Transformers instead of using Microchange and Diaclone moulds and that was what, 1 or 2 years into the line? Apart from that and maybe rubber tires I think all the vast improvements in other areas are a worthwhile trade. Chromed parts are great when straight out of tghe package but they inevitably flake and chip and rubber deteriorates over time and leaves you with a broken or incomplete toy.

My only axe to grind would be with how cheap they are with the paint apps.

Posted: **Fri May 04, 2007 2:41 am**

skywarp-2 wrote:
Nemesis Primal wrote:
Leonardo wrote:- Stickers, which may be fun to apply

Disagree, I've had bad experiences with stickers not going on right, or realzing too late that I put one on wrong. To say nothing of, as you mentioned, the issue with them coming off.

Don't point me towards Reprolabels. We shouldn't NEED Reprolabels.

Awww I like repo labels, and not to mention their Alternators line up looks great on the bots.. if the stickers have an issue with pealing I suggest you superglue them on... or stick them on and paint a thin lair of clearcoat on them, it'll blend in after dried.. if that's way too much work, then what are you buying stickers for?

ReproLabels is good in the sense that a lot of toys do have stickers and therefore it's fantastic that they can be replaced if they do deteriorate (and, obviously, if the owner so wishes).

As for them being fun? Well, it's a matter of opinion, really. I did say "may" be fun. I only ever apply the faction symbols on my G1's, for the simple reason that I think a lot of the stickers just look bad. The Seeker eyes, for example, or the stickers that are supposed to represent circuitry or machinery, they look bad. Occassionally I'll add some stickers like Hound's stars or Prowl's police badge, but in my view a lot of the stickers are just pointless and actually detract from the look. I wish I hadn't put Hot Rod's shoulder and shin stickers on; I transform him lots and they're beginning to peel badly.

Posted: **Fri May 04, 2007 4:32 am**

Leonardo wrote:
skywarp-2 wrote:
Nemesis Primal wrote:
Leonardo wrote:- Stickers, which may be fun to apply

Disagree, I've had bad experiences with stickers not going on right, or realzing too late that I put one on wrong. To say nothing of, as you mentioned, the issue with them coming off.

Don't point me towards Reprolabels. We shouldn't NEED Reprolabels.

Awww I like repo labels, and not to mention their Alternators line up looks great on the bots.. if the stickers have an issue with pealing I suggest you superglue them on... or stick them on and paint a thin lair of clearcoat on them, it'll blend in after dried.. if that's way too much work, then what are you buying stickers for?

ReproLabels is good in the sense that a lot of toys do have stickers and therefore it's fantastic that they can be replaced if they do deteriorate (and, obviously, if the owner so wishes).

As for them being fun? Well, it's a matter of opinion, really. I did say "may" be fun. I only ever apply the faction symbols on my G1's, for the simple reason that I think a lot of the stickers just look bad. The Seeker eyes, for example, or the stickers that are supposed to represent circuitry or machinery, they look bad. Occassionally I'll add some stickers like Hound's stars or Prowl's police badge, but in my view a lot of the stickers are just pointless and actually detract from the look. I wish I hadn't put Hot Rod's shoulder and shin stickers on; I transform him lots and they're beginning to peel badly.

My ex managed to start damageing the shin stickers on hers the second she got Hot Rod.
Me, Ive only noticed problems with the shin stickers, not the shoulder ones, and I've managed to reduce the damage to a minimum with a bit of careful transformation.

And personally I think there isnt a G1 tf out there that dosnt look a million times better with stickers.

Posted: **Fri May 04, 2007 10:30 am**

I disagree Red.

I think the titaniums are excellent value at £15.
You get all that G1-goodness- the insane amounts of diecast, the great designs, the characters they use, and for less than an Alt in cost!

Alts are overpriced a little if you ask me, but that's probably due to profit splits between Hasblo and car companies, so I guess it's justified.

The Titaniums are bad looking, and they're more or less in size with the G1 figures. They look perfect alongside the seekers and carbots of early G1.

The Energon Pub

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