Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Rodimus Prime wrote:

RhA wrote:Let's not forget Grindor. Hooks tore his face apart, man.

Hooks.

It's 1 thing to be taken out by a superior enemy face-to-face

Well, Grindor is a full-time Warrior with combat-oriented design, Optimus was builded to be a scientist. Grindor is bigger, physically stronger, better armored and have better weapons. Grindor don't need any kind of Upregade to fly. I really don't se much of superiority here. Plot armor and beign director's favorite aside.

TurboMMaster wrote:Well, Grindor is a full-time Warrior with combat-oriented design, Optimus was builded to be a scientist.

Where in any of the movies is it stated that Optimus was built to be a scientist?

Grindor is bigger, physically stronger, better armored and have better weapons.

He might be bigger, but you're wrong on the other counts. Optimus overpowered him in a fight, so he's not physically stronger. Optimus also defeated him in hand-to-hand combat and killed him using his weapons. If Grindor had better armor and weapons, he would have been able to fend off Optimus's attacks and defeat him in hand-to-hand combat. But he lost, because his armor and weaponry, as well as his fighting skills, were inferior.

Grindor don't need any kind of Upgrade to fly. I really don't see much of superiority here.

Even with the innate ability to fly, Grindor still couldn't make that advantage work for him in the fight, making him inferior to Optimus even more than the reasons I listed above. So if you don't see Optimus's superiority, you're either in denial or blinded by hatred for Bay.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Where in any of the movies is it stated that Optimus was built to be a scientist?

It was stated in Movie Prequels, as I recall, Alliance. When Megatron was defending planet and Allspark from aliens, Optimus was leading a team analysing The Fallen's obelisk. Also, Megatron's despise for Optimus in First Movie suggest that Optimus wasn't best tactician nor fighter during Cybertronian period of war.

But he lost, because his armor and weaponry, as well as his fighting skills, were inferior.

He lost because he was a irrevelant decoy character. Fans were complaining that Prime was to weak in first movie. So they have created Blackout's clone A.K.A Grindor just ot Prime could punch him few times. However, Michael Bay decided that Optimus have to kill him (Grindor death wasn't part of original script since he survived in Comic and as I heard Novel). And since Bay never really cared about details, it was done the easiest way possible.

However, Grindor isn't alone. In fact, it's hard to find a single Prime kill scene in ROTF and DOTM that wasn't forced and illogical.In AOE Ehren Kruger decided to explain this by turning Con's into man-made mindless drones. I quess that after beign Bay's scapegoat after DOTM failure teached him a lot.

TurboMMaster wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:Where in any of the movies is it stated that Optimus was built to be a scientist?

It was stated in Movie Prequels, as I recall, Alliance. When Megatron was defending planet and Allspark from aliens, Optimus was leading a team analyzing The Fallen's obelisk.

So it wasn't in the movies.

Also, Megatron's despise for Optimus in First Movie suggest that Optimus wasn't best tactician nor fighter during Cybertronian period of war.

That's just your personal interpretation.

But he lost, because his armor and weaponry, as well as his fighting skills, were inferior.

He lost because he was a irrelevant decoy character. Fans were complaining that Prime was too weak in first movie. So they have created Blackout's clone A.K.A Grindor just so Prime could punch him few times. However, Michael Bay decided that Optimus have to kill him (Grindor death wasn't part of original script since he survived in Comic and as I heard Novel). And since Bay never really cared about details, it was done the easiest way possible.

In the final cut of the movie he was killed. That's all that matters. He was killed in battle by a superior fighter.

However, Grindor isn't alone. In fact, it's hard to find a single Prime kill scene in ROTF and DOTM that wasn't forced and illogical.

Killing The Fallen in RoTF wasn't illogical. Killing Demolisher was, as was killing Grindor. He was in a 3-on-1 fight for his life, eliminating the enemy was tactically logical. In DoTM, maybe murdering Sentinel was overkill, but killing Megatron needed to be done. Turns out, it didn't even work.

In AOE Ehren Kruger decided to explain this by turning Cons into man-made mindless drones.

So you're saying that in AoE the reason the Cons weren't Cybertronian was because that would make it easier to accept Optimus being a ruthless killer? As long as he is killing man-made mechanical beings instead of Cybertronians?

Rodimus Prime wrote:So it wasn't in the movies.

Yeah, and? It still offical prequels, Hasbro never stated it to be non-canon. So Prime's civilan origin is of few things in Bayverse Timeline that was never denied in any way. It's common for both Movies, video games and comic boooks alike.

That's just your personal interpretation.

Some "personal interpreatations" are considered canon by fans, even when they are contradictionary to the movie itself (Like this "Prime was holding back in Mission City" nonsense or theory that only a Prime can kill Optimus)

In the final cut of the movie he was killed. That's all that matters.

Medicore writing beats ad directing. When something in adaptation is more consistent than mainstream, it can be used as argument against mainstream.

Killing The Fallen in RoTF wasn't illogical.

It was, because The Fallen wasn't using his abilities like teleportation. He could have beign killed by falling meteor and it wouldn't change movie in any way.

Killing Demolisher was, as was killing Grindor. He was in a 3-on-1 fight for his life, eliminating the enemy was tactically logical. In DoTM, maybe murdering Sentinel was overkill, but killing Megatron needed to be done.

I'm not questioning Prime "you can kill if it's necessary mentality" only his physical ability to do so. He was simply physically to weak and to inexperienced to make any of this kills belivable. Can you imagine Quentin Tarantino's movie with Rowan Atkison as main character? Until AOE, Bayverse was this level bad.

TurboMMaster wrote:Some "personal interpretations" are considered canon by fans

That's not canon, that's fanon.

When something in adaptation is more consistent than mainstream, it can be used as argument against mainstream.

According to who?

Killing The Fallen in RoTF wasn't illogical.

It was, because The Fallen wasn't using his abilities like teleportation. He could have been killed by falling meteor and it wouldn't change movie in any way.

That's not what I meant. It was logical for Optimus to kill the Fallen because he was threatening Earth and its entire population with the Sun Harvester.

I'm not questioning Prime "you can kill if it's necessary mentality" only his physical ability to do so. He was simply physically to weak and to inexperienced to make any of this kills believable.

How so? He was big enough, fast enough, smart enough and was armed enough. Where do you get this idea that Optimus was weak in the Bay films? Morally, maybe, but not physically.

Can you imagine Quentin Tarantino's movie with Rowan Atkinson as main character?

Yes, I can. If anyone can turn Mr. Bean into a total badass, it's Tarantino. Or, it used to be. Seems like he's been losing his mojo recently. The Hateful 8 and Inglorious Basterds were both worthless crap. Django was pretty good, but it wasn't an original idea.

I love the way Optimus takes out Grindor in ROTF. The death that shocked me most though was Sentinel Prime. I didn't expect Optimus to be that cold.

william-james88 wrote:I love the way Optimus takes out Grindor in ROTF. The death that shocked me most though was Sentinel Prime. I didn't expect Optimus to be that cold.

I said earlier that killing Sentinel may have been overkill, but now that I think about it, it was exactly what Sentinel deserved. He shot Ironhide in the back and then pretty much executed him. What goes around comes around.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

william-james88 wrote:I love the way Optimus takes out Grindor in ROTF. The death that shocked me most though was Sentinel Prime. I didn't expect Optimus to be that cold.

I said earlier that killing Sentinel may have been overkill, but now that I think about it, it was exactly what Sentinel deserved. He shot Ironhide in the back and then pretty much executed him. What goes around comes around.

Oh yeah, I agree. That guy deserved it. It is still intense though that it comes from Optimus of all people.

One thing I will say is that they should not have made Sentinel have a removable helmet because it messes with the scene a bit. He gets knocked out hard, to the point where his helmet comes off. But its not obvious so it looks like its his head. And thats odd because its so quick so people do get a bit disoriented with whats going on with the scene and then seeing that he is still alive enough for Optimus to finish him off. Also, isnt it awesome that in the most random act possible, hasbro actually gave us that shotgun!


Transformers Age of Extinction: Generations Evasion Mode Optimus Prime Gallery

Ratchet was definetely the hardest death to watch. Might've been the saddest movie death for me.

I wonder if Ratchet had just started off guns blazing against cemetary wind, would he have escaped? He only has his gun for a few seconds when he's already wounded, and he does quite a bit of damage. And it can't be that hard to evade Lockdown, Prime is able to do it after being shot to a pulp.

I wonder if Ratchet had just started off guns blazing against cemetary wind, would he have escaped? He only has his gun for a few seconds when he's already wounded, and he does quite a bit of damage. And it can't be that hard to evade Lockdown, Prime is able to do it after being shot to a pulp

Considering that is estabilished long ago that Humans in Bayverse always were a stronger side of this alliance, and Lockdown almost killed Optimus, it's very unlikely.

I think he could have killed a lot of the Cemetery Wind guys, but Lockdown would have killed him anyway.

Ironhide made me sad. Ratchet made me struggle to maintain my composure. Ratchet's corpse being melted down for Transformium and Prime's distraught reaction were f*cking heartbreaking. I know a lot of people don't like Movie Prime, but I must be honest, I really dug how they played with the whole "shell-shocked war hero" thing. That "They slaughtered Ratchet! I'm going to tear them apart!" really gave him a human edge in the most unpleasant, painful way possible.

In terms of badass deaths, whilst I thought the characters were wasted I did think the Mexican standoff with the Dreads was awesome.

Ratchets death was the hardest to watch. Ironhide was surprising, but Ratchet, you just knew at the beginning of the scene, and it lasted for several minutes. That was sad.

A death I remember too is Sideways from RotF. Cut in half in alt mode. Brutal.

I think that Ironhide death was terrible, not only that it wasn't mentioned why Sentinel did that, but it also seems to be.. unpractical. What he have gained by murdering one of his own best soldiers?

And why the only Solider in Optimus Prime's Team can't remain a defiant to the end? I know that Sentinel's "betrayal" wasn't a very optimistic event, but it's not excuse for crying Ironhide.

Ironhide's death was so sad, even though I knew he was going to die because of me reading spoilers before seeing the movie.

Henry921 wrote:Ratchet. Defiant to the end, and absolutely brutal to watch.

Ditto. Agree, When we see ratchet die it really shows how human they can be he got a wrongful death. Not a warriors death unfortunately but defeated by the humans he thought he was protecting. That.and Lockdown