The Energon Pub

So, 8 years ago, the first bay movie was about to come out, and the fandom was going nuts. This site in particular went through an incredible amount of upheaval. Mods and admins were fired/changed/quit over the direction things were headed. A massive amount of new (mostly quite a bit younger) posters joined. Old members quit. Some became quite vocal in their hatred of change. Some became quite insane. Some of us tried to maintain status quo and I brace the new movies as a new opportunity for great transformers action and stories.

During this time I was one who tried to shout don the naysayers. Though the strife and division soon got to me and I basically quit the site for 8 years, I was very excited for the movie.

That has worn off.

As the years have gone by, I find the movies to be less and less enjoyable. My fan love has worn off, and the flaws really stand out too me. I now think that they damaged the franchise more than helped it.

So where does everyone else stand? What do you think the effect is, 8 years on down the road?

The movies are the best thing to happen to the franchise. Probably, the best thing to happen to the entire world in the past couple thousand years.

Ironhidensh wrote:I find the movies to be less and less enjoyable. My fan love has worn off, and the flaws really stand out too me. I now think that they damaged the franchise more than helped it.

That depends on how you look at it. Commercially and financially, the Bay movies have been a total boon for the franchise. Just think, how many more new things we have as a result of the cash Hasbro raked in? I doubt that Generations and Combiner Wars would be where they are if it wasn't for the success of the movie toys and other merchandise associated with the films. I'm not saying they wouldn't have happened, but perhaps they wouldn't have happened as soon or to the extent they did. So from that POV, I disagree. The live movie franchise was a huge positive for the somewhat stagnant franchise. Children got into it, and some older fans got back into it. It definitely breathed life into the franchise, and lined Hasbro's coffers, which, just like with any other business, is the bottom line.

Story-wise, I agree with you. It was definitely an inferior product, due to it having to appeal to the general audience, in order to make the bank the films have done so far. If it was strictly G1, or any other single continuity, it would have failed, simple as that. But yeah, story-wise, it's definitely down on the ladder. And I singled out the story aspect, because visually the movies are stunning, and more superb than anything else in the franchise, as the general public and the majority of the fandom is considered. I still think the 1986 film has more beautiful art than the Bay films ever could, but that's just my opinion. And with Bay's penchant for action and grandeur, the explosions and the sounds, the movies are a sensory overload on orgasmic levels (especially the RoTF forest fight). It's basically sex for your eyes and ears. But once the material gets past those and actually into your brain, it's a disappointment.

I perhaps worded that wrong. By negative effect on the franchise, I meant me personally. I n longer care as much about Transformers as I used to. To me, the Bay movies have cheapened transformers.

I do agree wth the point on visuals. The bay movies have been visually stunning. I've even really liked most of the robot designs. I dunno, it's hard for me to put a finger on it.

I guess, as the years have gone by (damn I feel old typing that), I see more and more people associating transformers solely with the bay movies, and that bothers me. To me, the bay movies became the least of what transformers can be

I will admit, I probally won't ever forget the feeling of magic I got that first time on opening night when Prime transformed for the first time. So there is that.

pre-'07 = wasn't into Transformers, just had vague memories of Beast Wars and some toys
'07 Movie = EPIC OHMYGAWD
'07 Movie rewatch = hmm, that was kinda hollow actually
RotF = EPIC OHMYGAWD... but there were some flaws. Probably because of that writers strike thing
**then joins fan sites, (re)discovers BW and Animated, has fun with NEST/HftD, all good stuff**
DotM = oh, I guess it wasn't the writers strike...
AoE = meh, it's not like there's a shortage of well-written Transformers works out there

Basically, Bay's films have been the gateway drug to better things.

All, in all, considering that Bayverse created 2 decent movies and 2 absolutely horrid/ I must say that the best scenerio is that Bay died soon after first movie premiere. It's had how all of potential was lost, and AOE isn't good enough to let us all forgot about these two abominations.

Noideaforaname wrote:pre-'07 = wasn't into Transformers, just had vague memories of Beast Wars and some toys
'07 Movie = EPIC OHMYGAWD
'07 Movie rewatch = hmm, that was kinda hollow actually
RotF = EPIC OHMYGAWD... but there were some flaws. Probably because of that writers strike thing
**then joins fan sites, (re)discovers BW and Animated, has fun with NEST/HftD, all good stuff**
DotM = oh, I guess it wasn't the writers strike...
AoE = meh, it's not like there's a shortage of well-written Transformers works out there

Basically, Bay's films have been the gateway drug to better things.

More or less my feelings, too. Not as much with the EPICOMIGOSH, but just enough to bring me back in.

That, and meeting some of the comics creators at a convention in London.

Noideaforaname wrote:pre-'07 = wasn't into Transformers, just had vague memories of Beast Wars and some toys
'07 Movie = EPIC OHMYGAWD
'07 Movie rewatch = hmm, that was kinda hollow actually
RotF = EPIC OHMYGAWD... but there were some flaws. Probably because of that writers strike thing
**then joins fan sites, (re)discovers BW and Animated, has fun with NEST/HftD, all good stuff**
DotM = oh, I guess it wasn't the writers strike...
AoE = meh, it's not like there's a shortage of well-written Transformers works out there

Basically, Bay's films have been the gateway drug to better things.

Pretty much my exact experience with TF's.

Basically, Bay's films have been the gateway drug to better things.

With this I must agree, first movie was good enough to bring me back intro Transformers and was a major inspiration in creating great series Transformers: Prime, so it was worth it just because of this. However, with skilled director First movie could be even better, and the rest of first trilogy could have been watchable.

I absolutely believe the 07 movie was an enormously positive event for the franchise. Then I would probably have to say the 2nd movie basically maintained the (new found)public awareness of the franchise created by the 07 movie. With the 3rd and 4th movies, the franchise was cheapened. Not only did the movies have less value, but a lot of the toys were cheapened too. There has been a noticeable drop in quality across the board.

Prime Riblet wrote:I absolutely believe the 07 movie was an enormously positive event for the franchise. Then I would probably have to say the 2nd movie basically maintained the (new found)public awareness of the franchise created by the 07 movie. With the 3rd and 4th movies, the franchise was cheapened. Not only did the movies have less value, but a lot of the toys were cheapened too. There has been a noticeable drop in quality across the board.

I think I agree with you Riblet. Beyond a doubt, the 07 movie did good things for the franchise. But after that, things felt like they started to droop everywhere. The movies have obviously just gotten worse, and the more recent runs of toys have just been cheap in all regards except what they cost at the store. There's still stuff to love, but quality has really plummeted.

Hey, I remember you. Likewise, I've been drifting back to the site after some time away.

Ironhidensh wrote:I perhaps worded that wrong. By negative effect on the franchise, I meant me personally. I n longer care as much about Transformers as I used to. To me, the Bay movies have cheapened transformers.

How? Transformers was always a commercial-driven franchise to begin with. The fiction exists for one reason only: to sell toys. It's not like the franchise put on some cheap lipstick and a skimpy dress and became a "lady of the night" by opening up to a new, and bigger, market. Sure, the movies were pretty dumb, but so were the original cartoons if you're honest with yourself.

JazZeke wrote:Hey, I remember you. Likewise, I've been drifting back to the site after some time away.

Ironhidensh wrote:I perhaps worded that wrong. By negative effect on the franchise, I meant me personally. I n longer care as much about Transformers as I used to. To me, the Bay movies have cheapened transformers.

How? Transformers was always a commercial-driven franchise to begin with. The fiction exists for one reason only: to sell toys. It's not like the franchise put on some cheap lipstick and a skimpy dress and became a "lady of the night" by opening up to a new, and bigger, market. Sure, the movies were pretty dumb, but so were the original cartoons if you're honest with yourself.

I'm not sure it's a question of not being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that the old cartoons are dumb. I think it's an issue of actually being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that just because it's called Transformers, and I like Transformers, I don't have to unquestioningly accept or approve of any/everything called Transformers. I think it's a matter of what people themselves accept, and if you don't like the cartoons or the movies or the whatever, it doesn't have to be a mark for or against the other. You can like one type of soda without having to like all other types of soda just based on the idea that you like that one kind of soda.
Sure the old cartoons were dumb, but I like them. Sure the new movies are dumb, but I don't like them. Not liking something now isn't actually a commentary on the state or worth of any other thing, past, present or future.

Dagon wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Hey, I remember you. Likewise, I've been drifting back to the site after some time away.

Ironhidensh wrote:I perhaps worded that wrong. By negative effect on the franchise, I meant me personally. I n longer care as much about Transformers as I used to. To me, the Bay movies have cheapened transformers.

How? Transformers was always a commercial-driven franchise to begin with. The fiction exists for one reason only: to sell toys. It's not like the franchise put on some cheap lipstick and a skimpy dress and became a "lady of the night" by opening up to a new, and bigger, market. Sure, the movies were pretty dumb, but so were the original cartoons if you're honest with yourself.

I'm not sure it's a question of not being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that the old cartoons are dumb. I think it's an issue of actually being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that just because it's called Transformers, and I like Transformers, I don't have to unquestioningly accept or approve of any/everything called Transformers. I think it's a matter of what people themselves accept, and if you don't like the cartoons or the movies or the whatever, it doesn't have to be a mark for or against the other. You can like one type of soda without having to like all other types of soda just based on the idea that you like that one kind of soda.
Sure the old cartoons were dumb, but I like them. Sure the new movies are dumb, but I don't like them. Not liking something now isn't actually a commentary on the state or worth of any other thing, past, present or future.

Exactly. You can like one and not the other--so how do the movies "cheapen" the whole of Transformers?

I do think that the movie did give the franchise an boost it released the Transformers brand back into the limelight where the 22 minute TV shows weren't a loud enough voice.

I can honestly say I wasn't fond of it. But I did benefit, more toys, more comics, and merchandise in general which I appreciate.

JazZeke wrote:

Dagon wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Hey, I remember you. Likewise, I've been drifting back to the site after some time away.

Ironhidensh wrote:I perhaps worded that wrong. By negative effect on the franchise, I meant me personally. I n longer care as much about Transformers as I used to. To me, the Bay movies have cheapened transformers.

How? Transformers was always a commercial-driven franchise to begin with. The fiction exists for one reason only: to sell toys. It's not like the franchise put on some cheap lipstick and a skimpy dress and became a "lady of the night" by opening up to a new, and bigger, market. Sure, the movies were pretty dumb, but so were the original cartoons if you're honest with yourself.

I'm not sure it's a question of not being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that the old cartoons are dumb. I think it's an issue of actually being honest with ones' self to acknowledge that just because it's called Transformers, and I like Transformers, I don't have to unquestioningly accept or approve of any/everything called Transformers. I think it's a matter of what people themselves accept, and if you don't like the cartoons or the movies or the whatever, it doesn't have to be a mark for or against the other. You can like one type of soda without having to like all other types of soda just based on the idea that you like that one kind of soda.
Sure the old cartoons were dumb, but I like them. Sure the new movies are dumb, but I don't like them. Not liking something now isn't actually a commentary on the state or worth of any other thing, past, present or future.

Exactly. You can like one and not the other--so how do the movies "cheapen" the whole of Transformers?

It burned me out on them. Surrounded by movie stuff, I was constantly reminded of what I didn't like, and it was harder to remeber what I did.

With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

Sustain wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

I didn't like any of the characters from the last movie enough to want to buy their toys (aside from the toys looking awful) because a) they were all annoying and b) where the hell did everybody from the last two movies go? What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.? And if the cast can be so easily turned over so unceremoniously, who's to say this cast will stick around either? Geez, remember when we thought the slaughter in the first act of the 86 movie was bad?

JazZeke wrote:

Sustain wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

I didn't like any of the characters from the last movie enough to want to buy their toys (aside from the toys looking awful) because a) they were all annoying and b) where the hell did everybody from the last two movies go? What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.? And if the cast can be so easily turned over so unceremoniously, who's to say this cast will stick around either? Geez, remember when we thought the slaughter in the first act of the 86 movie was bad?

Did you even watch the movie? They clearly stated that everyone was killed They even showed Leadfoot getting gunned down twice. If you saw the Wrecker's leader being slaughtered, why the Hell do you think the others are anywhere?

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

Sustain wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

I didn't like any of the characters from the last movie enough to want to buy their toys (aside from the toys looking awful) because a) they were all annoying and b) where the hell did everybody from the last two movies go? What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.? And if the cast can be so easily turned over so unceremoniously, who's to say this cast will stick around either? Geez, remember when we thought the slaughter in the first act of the 86 movie was bad?

Did you even watch the movie? They clearly stated that everyone was killed They even showed Leadfoot getting gunned down twice. If you saw the Wrecker's leader being slaughtered, why the Hell do you think the others are anywhere?

I'd ask if you understood rhetoric, but as you think these movies are examples of good storytelling, that's a self-answering question. (I said it before, I'll say it again: Go read a book.) My point by asking "What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.?" was not asking an obvious question, but pointing out the poor way these characters were dealt with--they deserved more than barely-mentioned off-screen deaths to make room for new characters/toys. Even the 86 movie did better by the characters it killed off by showing us their deaths; it allowed the audience to feel that loss.

JazZeke wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

Sustain wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

I didn't like any of the characters from the last movie enough to want to buy their toys (aside from the toys looking awful) because a) they were all annoying and b) where the hell did everybody from the last two movies go? What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.? And if the cast can be so easily turned over so unceremoniously, who's to say this cast will stick around either? Geez, remember when we thought the slaughter in the first act of the 86 movie was bad?

Did you even watch the movie? They clearly stated that everyone was killed They even showed Leadfoot getting gunned down twice. If you saw the Wrecker's leader being slaughtered, why the Hell do you think the others are anywhere?

I'd ask if you understood rhetoric, but as you think these movies are examples of good storytelling, that's a self-answering question. (I said it before, I'll say it again: Go read a book.) My point by asking "What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.?" was not asking an obvious question, but pointing out the poor way these characters were dealt with--they deserved more than barely-mentioned off-screen deaths to make room for new characters/toys. Even the 86 movie did better by the characters it killed off by showing us their deaths; it allowed the audience to feel that loss.

That, right there, is you're problem. You feel to damn much. Simple information isn't enough, is it?

Really if you want people to bond with your characters that's what you need. I don't think that's a problem.

Tossing characters to a meaningless and off screen death is empty. If it was your favorite character you'd want more. And sadly they didn't give that.

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

Sustain wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

TurboMMaster wrote:With Michael Bay out of the Way, there is a great chance hat Transformers 5 will be the best movie from the series. Judging from New TMNT Movie, i think there is a chance for even more impressive progress in fifth movie, Jonathan Liebesman dexerves a chance, he killed Splinter, so there is a chance he will be brave enough to kill Optimus for a little longer.

Ugh, can we please just stop killing characters left and right? It's hard to get invested in the characters when they have a smaller survival rate than in a horror movie. Its a cheap gimmick that's lost all shock value thanks to being overdone.

I agree on that. I get that they want to sell toys and the more then better, but you need to make us like the character to want to buy it. Killing them off and making them fodder I feel doesn't drive sales. I kinda hate that toy sales drive most of it too.

I didn't like any of the characters from the last movie enough to want to buy their toys (aside from the toys looking awful) because a) they were all annoying and b) where the hell did everybody from the last two movies go? What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.? And if the cast can be so easily turned over so unceremoniously, who's to say this cast will stick around either? Geez, remember when we thought the slaughter in the first act of the 86 movie was bad?

Did you even watch the movie? They clearly stated that everyone was killed They even showed Leadfoot getting gunned down twice. If you saw the Wrecker's leader being slaughtered, why the Hell do you think the others are anywhere?

I'd ask if you understood rhetoric, but as you think these movies are examples of good storytelling, that's a self-answering question. (I said it before, I'll say it again: Go read a book.) My point by asking "What happened to Sideswipe, the Wreckers etc.?" was not asking an obvious question, but pointing out the poor way these characters were dealt with--they deserved more than barely-mentioned off-screen deaths to make room for new characters/toys. Even the 86 movie did better by the characters it killed off by showing us their deaths; it allowed the audience to feel that loss.

That, right there, is you're problem. You feel to damn much. Simple information isn't enough, is it?

No, it's not, not for storytelling.

Speaking as a writer, stories resonate with us. It's a deep-seated aspect of human nature; we identify with characters in stories, be they real or fictional. We bond with them, and that's what elevates a story from a mere occurrence. The characters have to have emotion, depth, otherwise it's merely a puppet show. And if we can't feel anything for the characters, then what's the f***ing point?